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In 7th I feel drop pods/rhinos will be a main stay in power armor armies just to take advantage of objective secured, but what chapter tactic to take with them seems a bit more difficult.

-White Scars with Khan gets you hit and run with scout.

-Crimson Fists with Kantor gets you bolter drill with objective secured sternguard.

-Iron Hands gets you army wide 6+ fnp and iwnd objective secured transports

-Salamanders with vulkan gets you master crafted all over you army.

-Raven Guard gets you scout with first turn stealth.

-Black Templars. Ultramarines, and Blood Angels are not helpful.

Non C:SM power armies to compare:

-Dark Angels offer ld8/9 stubborn, but seriously lacks everywhere else.

-Space Wolfs still offer serious drop pod considerations.

-Grey Knights with Razorbacks seems like a good fit again.

Over all I think that Raven Guard and White Scars offers the best mobility which seems to be the most important part of 7th. I think I prefer Raven Guard just for the stealth on first turn helping my rhinos actually get to where they need to go with a possible 24"+ move on first turn.

While White Scars does offer the scout rule but you have to pay the tax for khan, who is not bad in his own right, but I'd rather take a HQ with a 2+Sv.

Salamanders are of course a very strong drop pod army, but kinda slow for rhinos.

Iron Hands would work either way, but don't offer much outside of durability.

I actually like the Crimson Fists with Kantor since you can have 9 objective secured transports. Bolter Drill adds up to, you're basically turning all of your bolters into BS5. Tank hunter on devastators isn't that bad either.

For the non C:SM:

If you're going drop pods you'd have to consider space wolfs. They can still be brutal on the alpha strike.

If you're going more on the rhino/razorback side Grey Knights offer some serious options.

Dark Angles just suck. Stubborn doesn't help with that.

So what Chapter Tactic do you think is going to show up at the top tables?

Ultramarines are not helpful? Almost Chapter-wide twin-linking (Tactical doctrine)on the Alpha strike, including Sternguard (reroll 1's). Insert Calgar, declare Tactical doctrine for another turn. In my experience, the UM Drop Pod list is pretty devastating.

 cycluv wrote:
Ultramarines are not helpful? Almost Chapter-wide twin-linking (Tactical doctrine)on the Alpha strike, including Sternguard (reroll 1's). Insert Calgar, declare Tactical doctrine for another turn. In my experience, the UM Drop Pod list is pretty devastating.

Vulkan and the Salamanders do it cheaper.

Smurfs as pointed out by cycluv
Usefulness as for objective securing:
White Scars: Should be very useful with tough bike troops
Imperial fist: just nice to have but not great.
Black Templar: Fairly Meh except DT Troop landraiders!
Salamanders: Amazing with drop pods.
Iron Hands: 6+ FNP is nice but they are still just marines. vehicles get glanced the just same.
Raven Guard: Scouting and Stealth could be nice in malstorm.
Overall im thinking tops is going to be sali, WS and BT.

Tigerius is a huge pick up for marines in 7th.

I also think you are under estimating bikes. Raven guard scoring bikes are powerful so are white scar bikes, and iron hands for that matter.

I also think ravenguard are pretty solid now that you can join them with things like priests

 Goldphish wrote:

 cycluv wrote:
Ultramarines are not helpful? Almost Chapter-wide twin-linking (Tactical doctrine)on the Alpha strike, including Sternguard (reroll 1's). Insert Calgar, declare Tactical doctrine for another turn. In my experience, the UM Drop Pod list is pretty devastating.

Vulkan and the Salamanders do it cheaper.

True, for melta. But Ultramarines can "twin-link" bolters, plasma, grav, lascannons, plasma cannons, missile launchers, special ammo, cheese sandwiches, and so on. Against a vehicle heavy list, Sallies rule. Ultramarines can take on a all-comers list better than the Sallies IMO. Plus they are Blue ;-)

I wouldnt be so quick to write-off Dark Angels.

I would consider that they can take bikes, attack bikes and land speeders as OBJ-secured troops in addition to an EW HQ. In addition they can take the Banner of Dakka Dakka.

I like them for their versatile and fast troops.

Also, has anyone noticed the subtle changes to The Scouring and Big Guns Never Tire? In these missions fast and heavy units only provide additional scoring opportunities for your OPPONENT.

With this in mind - I like all bike armies and scoring Sternguard armies that do not take Fast or Heavy units.

A White Scars, Dark Angels or Ultramarine Biker list I like because I can take mobile scoring heavy weapons and special weapons. I like the Crimson Fist list with Drop Podding Sternguard.

dark angels also have scoring land raiders with re-roll pen's AND the PFG now (argueably, my local meta has it at a roll-off right now before the match starts to decide if it works inside of vehicles on the vehicle) works inside vehicles now (and it grants an additional 3" radius of 4++ around it too!)

if you ask me deathwing land raiders became very scary opponents when they get mixed with a servo harness tech with a pfg. you can basically plop it on an objective and for the rest of the game its yours as their is almost nothing capable of harming it. (example, a single serpent shield blast of (at best) 7 shots, 6 on avg will hit and then 2 of those will actually do damage, you then have a 4++ so only 1 will get through and if its a pen you can re-roll the result and your tech can get out and repair it on your turn on a 5+, its basically an impenetrable fortress on tracks now)

 ionusx wrote:
dark angels also have scoring land raiders with re-roll pen's AND the PFG now (argueably, my local meta has it at a roll-off right now before the match starts to decide if it works inside of vehicles on the vehicle) works inside vehicles now (and it grants an additional 3" radius of 4++ around it too!)

if you ask me deathwing land raiders became very scary opponents when they get mixed with a servo harness tech with a pfg. you can basically plop it on an objective and for the rest of the game its yours as their is almost nothing capable of harming it. (example, a single serpent shield blast of (at best) 7 shots, 6 on avg will hit and then 2 of those will actually do damage, you then have a 4++ so only 1 will get through and if its a pen you can re-roll the result and your tech can get out and repair it on your turn on a 5+, its basically an impenetrable fortress on tracks now)

SS Shield being ST7 wouldn't threaten av14 at all.

Fortress might be a very interesting idea.

Black Templars CT isn't helpful? We have Crusader Squads which provide scoring Land Raiders, if that isn't helpful I don't know what is.

Things haven't really changed with regards to CTs; WS and RG will outshine most others, with IH also being popular for certain builds.

deFl0 wrote:Tigerius is a huge pick up for marines in 7th.

I also think you are under estimating bikes. Raven guard scoring bikes are powerful so are white scar bikes, and iron hands for that matter.

I also think ravenguard are pretty solid now that you can join them with things like priests

I agree, I don't think bike lists are going to disappear at all. In fact I'd think they would get stronger with the nerf to the hell turkey. Pods and Rhinos just offer 3 objective secured units when bikes can get at most 2.

cycluv wrote:True, for melta. But Ultramarines can "twin-link" bolters, plasma, grav, lascannons, plasma cannons, missile launchers, special ammo, cheese sandwiches, and so on. Against a vehicle heavy list, Sallies rule. Ultramarines can take on a all-comers list better than the Sallies IMO. Plus they are Blue ;-)

True for melta and flamers which are about the only thing you are going to pod in with. To make that second round of pods count you kinda need to take the 275 point beatstick and even then you're getting twin linked bolters over sallies. Not a great selling point.

ionusx wrote:dark angels also have scoring land raiders with re-roll pen's AND the PFG now (argueably, my local meta has it at a roll-off right now before the match starts to decide if it works inside of vehicles on the vehicle) works inside vehicles now (and it grants an additional 3" radius of 4++ around it too!)

My only problem with this kind of strategy is you're spending 500 points before you add on any extras or the tech marines. So you can play 5 terminators which most will agree are not substantial and one vehicle that can still die in a single turn. If you go all out trying to protect it, you're spending 605 points and you still haven't bought weapons for the terminators. In a game with 5 or 6 possible objectives spending half your points on one unit seems crazy.

BrotherOfBone wrote:Black Templars CT isn't helpful? We have Crusader Squads which provide scoring Land Raiders, if that isn't helpful I don't know what is.

Read above, Crusaders just do it a little cheaper. Unless you go all out and bring all land raiders, but then you have a list that will win big or loose big.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:Things haven't really changed with regards to CTs; WS and RG will outshine most others, with IH also being popular for certain builds.

I was thinking along these lines, but I didn't see anyone taking RG before.

Scout and Stealth for Ravenguard is nice. Infiltrate and a droppod on top is gravy.

I am a personal fan of Sentinels of Terra tactics with bolter scouts and storms.

Add in tank hunter las/mis cents and devs and you got a solid basis for taking on all the vehicles coming in 7th.

Raven Guard CT's provide absolutely nothing for their bike squads, why would they be any more powerful than anyone else's? Somehow even mentioned in the same breath as WS bike squads?

 Goldphish wrote:

deFl0 wrote:Tigerius is a huge pick up for marines in 7th.

I also think you are under estimating bikes. Raven guard scoring bikes are powerful so are white scar bikes, and iron hands for that matter.

I also think ravenguard are pretty solid now that you can join them with things like priests

I agree, I don't think bike lists are going to disappear at all. In fact I'd think they would get stronger with the nerf to the hell turkey. Pods and Rhinos just offer 3 objective secured units when bikes can get at most 2.

cycluv wrote:True, for melta. But Ultramarines can "twin-link" bolters, plasma, grav, lascannons, plasma cannons, missile launchers, special ammo, cheese sandwiches, and so on. Against a vehicle heavy list, Sallies rule. Ultramarines can take on a all-comers list better than the Sallies IMO. Plus they are Blue ;-)

True for melta and flamers which are about the only thing you are going to pod in with. To make that second round of pods count you kinda need to take the 275 point beatstick and even then you're getting twin linked bolters over sallies. Not a great selling point.

ionusx wrote:dark angels also have scoring land raiders with re-roll pen's AND the PFG now (argueably, my local meta has it at a roll-off right now before the match starts to decide if it works inside of vehicles on the vehicle) works inside vehicles now (and it grants an additional 3" radius of 4++ around it too!)

My only problem with this kind of strategy is you're spending 500 points before you add on any extras or the tech marines. So you can play 5 terminators which most will agree are not substantial and one vehicle that can still die in a single turn. If you go all out trying to protect it, you're spending 605 points and you still haven't bought weapons for the terminators. In a game with 5 or 6 possible objectives spending half your points on one unit seems crazy.

BrotherOfBone wrote:Black Templars CT isn't helpful? We have Crusader Squads which provide scoring Land Raiders, if that isn't helpful I don't know what is.

Read above, Crusaders just do it a little cheaper. Unless you go all out and bring all land raiders, but then you have a list that will win big or loose big.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:Things haven't really changed with regards to CTs; WS and RG will outshine most others, with IH also being popular for certain builds.

I was thinking along these lines, but I didn't see anyone taking RG before.

I'm not certain you know your math well. Okay do the land raider is 280 after dw vehicle The tech is another 105 after harness and pfg you ten need only a cc deterrent like say some assault scouts to tie up anyone who gets close to it. So in the end a dark angels raider fortress only costs you 425ish points which isn't all that much considering that after upgrade just three useless as heck centurions are about 375ish. That's a difference of 75 pts.

Its impractical but it works and it's resilience is positively troll.

 ionusx wrote:
I'm not certain you know your math well. Okay do the land raider is 280 after dw vehicle The tech is another 105 after harness and pfg you ten need only a cc deterrent like say some assault scouts to tie up anyone who gets close to it. So in the end a dark angels raider fortress only costs you 425ish points which isn't all that much considering that after upgrade just three useless as heck centurions are about 375ish. That's a difference of 75 pts.

Its impractical but it works and it's resilience is positively troll.

Without objective secured its just another land raider. Any troop choice can negate it entirely on turn 5. The 605 price is leaving out the fact that you have to take Belial or Azrael as well and both of them are between average and bad. I don't see the land raider strategy working out too well for any army unless they can do it cheaply like Blood Angels, Grey Knights/Inquisitors, or Black Templars. You have to have room to take other threats or your opponent will just ignore your one land raider and destroy the rest of your army. Dark Angles don't have cheap land raiders.

The comparison between centurions is odd though since they can put out a lot more damage.

I think Raven guard, Sentinals of Terra and Iron Hands are the 3 best. Raven guard are the tops imo.

 Goldphish wrote:

deFl0 wrote:Tigerius is a huge pick up for marines in 7th.

I also think you are under estimating bikes. Raven guard scoring bikes are powerful so are white scar bikes, and iron hands for that matter.

I also think ravenguard are pretty solid now that you can join them with things like priests

I agree, I don't think bike lists are going to disappear at all. In fact I'd think they would get stronger with the nerf to the hell turkey. Pods and Rhinos just offer 3 objective secured units when bikes can get at most 2.

cycluv wrote:True, for melta. But Ultramarines can "twin-link" bolters, plasma, grav, lascannons, plasma cannons, missile launchers, special ammo, cheese sandwiches, and so on. Against a vehicle heavy list, Sallies rule. Ultramarines can take on a all-comers list better than the Sallies IMO. Plus they are Blue ;-)

True for melta and flamers which are about the only thing you are going to pod in with. To make that second round of pods count you kinda need to take the 275 point beatstick and even then you're getting twin linked bolters over sallies. Not a great selling point.

ionusx wrote:dark angels also have scoring land raiders with re-roll pen's AND the PFG now (argueably, my local meta has it at a roll-off right now before the match starts to decide if it works inside of vehicles on the vehicle) works inside vehicles now (and it grants an additional 3" radius of 4++ around it too!)

My only problem with this kind of strategy is you're spending 500 points before you add on any extras or the tech marines. So you can play 5 terminators which most will agree are not substantial and one vehicle that can still die in a single turn. If you go all out trying to protect it, you're spending 605 points and you still haven't bought weapons for the terminators. In a game with 5 or 6 possible objectives spending half your points on one unit seems crazy.

BrotherOfBone wrote:Black Templars CT isn't helpful? We have Crusader Squads which provide scoring Land Raiders, if that isn't helpful I don't know what is.

Read above, Crusaders just do it a little cheaper. Unless you go all out and bring all land raiders, but then you have a list that will win big or loose big.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:Things haven't really changed with regards to CTs; WS and RG will outshine most others, with IH also being popular for certain builds.

I was thinking along these lines, but I didn't see anyone taking RG before.

I agree Melta is the #1 choice when podding and an Alpha strike. Typically, an Alpha strike is just that. You only get to use the melta to take out the high priority targets before the squad is either assaulted or is targeted for annihilation. With the UM Tactical Doctrine, you get the same special benefits the Sallies get on the Alpha strike at the same cost. From Turn 2 on, the UM do not have the 'twin-linking' Melta without Marneus or use of the Storm of Fire warlord trait. Melta is rarely around from Turn 2 on because those units are a high-priority for removal by the opposing force OR the high priority target was removed and there are no other Melta targets in range.

The UM Tactical doctrine just provides a lot more flexibility, especially if you go for a Sternguard strike using the special ammo or plasma, let's say for hunting down MCs. UM is the only tactical doctrine that does this. Sallies don't and Imperial Fists don't.

Flamers are meh. You can only kill what you can cover. They took a nerf in this edition so Flamer pods are not all that devastating.

 ionusx wrote:

 Goldphish wrote:

deFl0 wrote:Tigerius is a huge pick up for marines in 7th.

I also think you are under estimating bikes. Raven guard scoring bikes are powerful so are white scar bikes, and iron hands for that matter.

I also think ravenguard are pretty solid now that you can join them with things like priests

I agree, I don't think bike lists are going to disappear at all. In fact I'd think they would get stronger with the nerf to the hell turkey. Pods and Rhinos just offer 3 objective secured units when bikes can get at most 2.

cycluv wrote:True, for melta. But Ultramarines can "twin-link" bolters, plasma, grav, lascannons, plasma cannons, missile launchers, special ammo, cheese sandwiches, and so on. Against a vehicle heavy list, Sallies rule. Ultramarines can take on a all-comers list better than the Sallies IMO. Plus they are Blue ;-)

True for melta and flamers which are about the only thing you are going to pod in with. To make that second round of pods count you kinda need to take the 275 point beatstick and even then you're getting twin linked bolters over sallies. Not a great selling point.

ionusx wrote:dark angels also have scoring land raiders with re-roll pen's AND the PFG now (argueably, my local meta has it at a roll-off right now before the match starts to decide if it works inside of vehicles on the vehicle) works inside vehicles now (and it grants an additional 3" radius of 4++ around it too!)

My only problem with this kind of strategy is you're spending 500 points before you add on any extras or the tech marines. So you can play 5 terminators which most will agree are not substantial and one vehicle that can still die in a single turn. If you go all out trying to protect it, you're spending 605 points and you still haven't bought weapons for the terminators. In a game with 5 or 6 possible objectives spending half your points on one unit seems crazy.

BrotherOfBone wrote:Black Templars CT isn't helpful? We have Crusader Squads which provide scoring Land Raiders, if that isn't helpful I don't know what is.

Read above, Crusaders just do it a little cheaper. Unless you go all out and bring all land raiders, but then you have a list that will win big or loose big.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:Things haven't really changed with regards to CTs; WS and RG will outshine most others, with IH also being popular for certain builds.

I was thinking along these lines, but I didn't see anyone taking RG before.

I'm not certain you know your math well. Okay do the land raider is 280 after dw vehicle The tech is another 105 after harness and pfg you ten need only a cc deterrent like say some assault scouts to tie up anyone who gets close to it. So in the end a dark angels raider fortress only costs you 425ish points which isn't all that much considering that after upgrade just three useless as heck centurions are about 375ish. That's a difference of 75 pts.

Its impractical but it works and it's resilience is positively troll.

3 Gravturions with Missile Launchers are 270 points, you're off by 105 points in your comparison, and even then Missile Launchers aren't that good in the first place, so it's more like 240 points. There's also the part where Centurions aren't "useless as heck", but that's another point.