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Hey guys, quick question that a friend and I encountered the other day. When you have a character with a magic item/weapon/etc that does multi wounds fighting against say regular rank and file ogres, do you still have to spread your attacks out to try and kill more than one of them. I know that when your fighting a character, the wounds cant spill over into the unit if you do more than necessary. But if you are only in base to base with one or two models(rank and file), is that all you can kill? Or does it not matter because rank and file models you cannot target specific models. Just looking for a bit of clarification?

You'd do 1 wound per model killed.

Okay, what about against ogres or MC? I guess my question is if I say that I am attacking rank and file multi-wound troops (like ogres/MC/trolls/etc) do I need to separate my attacks so that I get the most benefit from the D3 wounds.

Example:
If Hero X (with weapon that does D3 wounds) is attacking a unit of ogre bulls, and hits and wounds 3 times. Then the 3 wound are multiplied into say 7 wounds. Do I kill 2 ogres, and wound another. Or do I only kill 1 ogres, and the other 4 wounds are wasted because I did not nominate my attacks against more than one opponent.

You attack the models, and each hit does D3 wounds. If you do a total of 5 wounds, one ogre dies and the next takes 2 wounds.

Gotcha, thanks! That is all I needed to know

Essentially RnF multiwound units dont have wounds on anyone model - there is a pool of wounds, and when that pool is big enough it kills a model. So your sword of D3 could cause 4 unsaved wounds, multipled into D3 wounds each for say a total of 10 wounds. THis kils 3 RnF ogres and leaves one wound in the pool, ready for the next lot of attacks. If the rest of your unit fluffs and causes just 2 wounds, thaty is enough to kill another RnF ogre.

Multiwound units and wounds from multiple wound weapons is one of the most misunderstood sections of fantasy, so dont worry - youre in good ocmpany here

How does this work in regards to cannons hitting monstrous units? An example being a cannon hitting skullcrushers in the front, hitting only one. The hit wounds and a 6 is rolled for multiple wounds. Do 2 die even though only one model suffered the hit?

no, max wounds caused per model are capped at the W value of a single model in the unit
pool of wounds for the unit and not individual wounds, but the W value of each member is used to determine the pool and the "cap on wounds rolled"

TheMightyDilks wrote:
How does this work in regards to cannons hitting monstrous units? An example being a cannon hitting skullcrushers in the front, hitting only one. The hit wounds and a 6 is rolled for multiple wounds. Do 2 die even though only one model suffered the hit?

The way cannons work is that they hit single models. So they can only ever kill a single model. But, they bounce through. So if you roll the bounce and hit two crushers, then you roll to wound crushers and you roll a d6 for each one.

A cannon has to kill each model to continue onward. If the line would travel through two, you first have to kill the front one. If you roll a 1 and it has 2 wounds (or whatever), it stops dead there. It doesn't matter if the line says it should carry onward. It smacked into the first guy and didn't move on. That is ONLY for monstrous units (beasts, infantry, cavalry, and plain old monsters). If you have multi-wound anything else, it will still continue onward. But crushers are monstrous cavalry.

Any time that you have multiple wound attacks be it in CC or at range, you can only ever cause as many wounds as are on the targets profile with each 'multiple wounds' roll. So if you have a sword doing d6 wounds and attack ogres, if you do 3 wounds before multiplying the max you can do is 9W as each roll caps at 3.

 John Rainbow wrote:
Any time that you have multiple wound attacks be it in CC or at range, you can only ever cause as many wounds as are on the targets profile with each 'multiple wounds' roll. So if you have a sword doing d6 wounds and attack ogres, if you do 3 wounds before multiplying the max you can do is 9W as each roll caps at 3.

If you're in combat, then, with step up and various rules, the wounds are cumulative. 5 wounds on an ogres would mean 3 wounds off one, and 2 off another. Unless you attack a champion, or character. As they have a different statline and as such are a different target.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 John Rainbow wrote:
Any time that you have multiple wound attacks be it in CC or at range, you can only ever cause as many wounds as are on the targets profile with each 'multiple wounds' roll. So if you have a sword doing d6 wounds and attack ogres, if you do 3 wounds before multiplying the max you can do is 9W as each roll caps at 3.

If you're in combat, then, with step up and various rules, the wounds are cumulative. 5 wounds on an ogres would mean 3 wounds off one, and 2 off another. Unless you attack a champion, or character. As they have a different statline and as such are a different target.

I disagree. I thought it was pretty clear (obviously it isn't though) that your multiple wounds rolls cap at the number of wounds on any profile. Thus any rolls of 4,5 or 6 on a multiple wounds d6 weapon would still only count as 3W. I agree that if you do 2W one time and 2W the next time you kill 1 3W model with 1W left 'floating' but disagree that with 3W and a d6 wounds weapon you could potentially cause 18W total and kill 6 ogres or somesuch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As a reference see pp.45 of the BRB. To me at least it makes it pretty clear that this is how it is done (i.e. how I described in my above post).

 John Rainbow wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 John Rainbow wrote:
Any time that you have multiple wound attacks be it in CC or at range, you can only ever cause as many wounds as are on the targets profile with each 'multiple wounds' roll. So if you have a sword doing d6 wounds and attack ogres, if you do 3 wounds before multiplying the max you can do is 9W as each roll caps at 3.

If you're in combat, then, with step up and various rules, the wounds are cumulative. 5 wounds on an ogres would mean 3 wounds off one, and 2 off another. Unless you attack a champion, or character. As they have a different statline and as such are a different target.

I disagree. I thought it was pretty clear (obviously it isn't though) that your multiple wounds rolls cap at the number of wounds on any profile. Thus any rolls of 4,5 or 6 on a multiple wounds d6 weapon would still only count as 3W. I agree that if you do 2W one time and 2W the next time you kill 1 3W model with 1W left 'floating' but disagree that with 3W and a d6 wounds weapon you could potentially cause 18W total and kill 6 ogres or somesuch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As a reference see pp.45 of the BRB. To me at least it makes it pretty clear that this is how it is done (i.e. how I described in my above post).

Page 45: Multi wound models and multi wound weapons.

Note the last sentence of the first paragraph. "Add up all the wounds caused on the unit and then remove the appropriate number of models, noting any spare wounds on the unit."

Cannons operate differently as page 113 specifically states otherwise.

Cannons can also only ever wound 1 model per rank. So if you hit crushers from their front arc and its a unit 3 wide then the most you can ever kill is 1. You would have to hit its flank and go through more then one model to kill more then one.

Nm. Reading fail.

thedark - that describes how you remove casualties. Not how you determine how many wounds have actually been caused.

If your D6 wounds sword inflicts 4, 5 or 6 wounds on an ogre, it caps at 3. You can not cause more wounds from a D2/3/4/6 etc roll in one roll than the model has on its profile.

Once you have multipled out, you then work out how many this actually kills, leaving the remainder behind as "floating" wounds not attached to any one model.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
thedark - that describes how you remove casualties. Not how you determine how many wounds have actually been caused.

If your D6 wounds sword inflicts 4, 5 or 6 wounds on an ogre, it caps at 3. You can not cause more wounds from a D2/3/4/6 etc roll in one roll than the model has on its profile.

Once you have multipled out, you then work out how many this actually kills, leaving the remainder behind as "floating" wounds not attached to any one model.

So, like I said. If you deal five wounds to a unit, you take one ogre off and deal two wounds to another. Attacking a unit means the cap doesn't matter as the wounds carry over anyway. So it serves as a pool.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
thedark - that describes how you remove casualties. Not how you determine how many wounds have actually been caused.

If your D6 wounds sword inflicts 4, 5 or 6 wounds on an ogre, it caps at 3. You can not cause more wounds from a D2/3/4/6 etc roll in one roll than the model has on its profile.

Once you have multipled out, you then work out how many this actually kills, leaving the remainder behind as "floating" wounds not attached to any one model.

So, like I said. If you deal five wounds to a unit, you take one ogre off and deal two wounds to another. Attacking a unit means the cap doesn't matter as the wounds carry over anyway. So it serves as a pool.

Not if those 5 wounds came from a single successful to-wound roll with an attack with the Multiple Wounds d6 rule. In that circumstance, you would roll a single die for the Multiple Wounds, and any roll of 3+ would kill a single Ogre with no wound carry over.

Edit: spelling.

I remember us arguing this before and it does get a little confusing. Because the rules on 45 seem to be contradictory.

Under Hits Inflicting Multiple Wounds it clearly states a model can't take more wounds than it has on its profile. It does and the excess wounds are wasted.

"You'll notice a single hit causing many wounds works differently to multiple hits that each cause a single wound."

You quoted the multi-wound models and multi-wound weapons, that is below it. However, the big distinction in that section is it is talking about "If a UNIT of creatures...is hit."

A dude with a Piranha blade or a cannonball or whatever, are attacking a model. If an ogre is hit with a cannonball and takes 6 wounds, 3 don't go to the rear. You're not attacking the unit, and hits aren't distributed as shooting. You're hitting that one guy right there. Likewise a hero can spread his individual attacks to unit champs, heroes, RNF. In the case of RNF, they will step-up, but he's still hitting models, the step-up is just a convenience. He doesn't kill one so hard it gives the guy behind him a heart attack.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
I remember us arguing this before and it does get a little confusing. Because the rules on 45 seem to be contradictory.

Under Hits Inflicting Multiple Wounds it clearly states a model can't take more wounds than it has on its profile. It does and the excess wounds are wasted.

"You'll notice a single hit causing many wounds works differently to multiple hits that each cause a single wound."

You quoted the multi-wound models and multi-wound weapons, that is below it. However, the big distinction in that section is it is talking about "If a UNIT of creatures...is hit."

A dude with a Piranha blade or a cannonball or whatever, are attacking a model. If an ogre is hit with a cannonball and takes 6 wounds, 3 don't go to the rear. You're not attacking the unit, and hits aren't distributed as shooting. You're hitting that one guy right there. Likewise a hero can spread his individual attacks to unit champs, heroes, RNF. In the case of RNF, they will step-up, but he's still hitting models, the step-up is just a convenience. He doesn't kill one so hard it gives the guy behind him a heart attack.

If you notice, I never said that you do more than the number of wounds to a RnF model. I merely stated how the wounds work, when attacking a unit. In that they carry over. So, when I said that five wounds to an ogre unit results in one dead ogre and one that's taken 2 wounds, I was, in fact, correct.

But it's not correct. If a cannon does 5 wounds to an ogre. He takes 3 and dies. The remaining 2 are lost. The OP asked the question of:

"When you have a character with a magic item/weapon/etc that does multi wounds fighting against say regular rank and file ogres"

You wrote:

You attack the models, and each hit does D3 wounds. If you do a total of 5 wounds, one ogre dies and the next takes 2 wounds.

Your total doesn't matter. Only the wounds on the models. If you do 1 wound, then 1 wound, then 3 wounds, for a total of 5. You would kill one Ogre and nothing else--the remaining 2 are lost. If you did 3 wounds, then 1 then 1, then yes, 2 wounds would carry over. If you did 2, then 2, then 1. Then 1 wound would carry over.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
But it's not correct. If a cannon does 5 wounds to an ogre. He takes 3 and dies. The remaining 2 are lost. The OP asked the question of:

"When you have a character with a magic item/weapon/etc that does multi wounds fighting against say regular rank and file ogres"

You wrote:

You attack the models, and each hit does D3 wounds. If you do a total of 5 wounds, one ogre dies and the next takes 2 wounds.

Your total doesn't matter. Only the wounds on the models. If you do 1 wound, then 1 wound, then 3 wounds, for a total of 5. You would kill one Ogre and nothing else--the remaining 2 are lost. If you did 3 wounds, then 1 then 1, then yes, 2 wounds would carry over. If you did 2, then 2, then 1. Then 1 wound would carry over.

In combat, against regular rank and file, my assertion was correct. The excess wounds do carry over. As Page 5 states, the unit is a single entity. Therefore, against RnF, which we cannot attack separately, the wounds are done in total. Sure, you get capped at 3 wounds attacking an ogre. But, because the rulebook specifically states that, as a unit, they're a single entity, the excess carries like it is described on page 45.

Attacking a champion or a character is different, as they get singled out.

Also, with page 73 stating that each wound you do gets multiplied, you do four wounds as per normal, follow the rules for causing casualties, then multiply the wounds, following the rules for excess casualties on page 51.

No it doesn't. As close combat states, models fight models. A model directs its attacks. A model has a weapon with multiple wounds, a unit doesn't (unless it's a unit of 1). This is why knowing what is in B2B matters. If you have 10 wide in a unit vs. 1 goblin, you don't get 10 attacks because the unit isn't attacking, just the models in that unit who are touching that goblin.

The below is never contradicted:

"A model cannot suffer more wounds than it has on its profile. Should the model do so, it dies instantly and any excess wounds are wasted."

P. 51 doesn't address multi-wound. P. 73 doesn't address multi-wound models. Only the above quote does, which very conveniently has the subtitle of Hits Inflicting Multiple Wounds. Which is as specific as you can get.

Three multi-wound (2) hits that auto hit and wound are not the same as 6 hits that auto hit and wound. The 2nd one would kill 2 ogres. The first one would kill 1 and leave 1 wound on another. Because it would go 2 wounds, 1 wound/dead/1 wasted wound, 2 wounds. You can't put a 4th wound on an ogre. He's dead. The BRB says it's wasted.

I'm not going to copy & paste lots of things, but everyone who knows how to read the rules that ever argued on this topic always wrote the same thing as Duke, saldiven and Nosfe ... Except for you Dark
Even us Skavens (on the UnderEmpire) all agree on this, despite the dear love we have for the Fellblade who would very much like to be able to potentially kill 8 Ogres per CC phase, "sadly" it's only 4 under normal circumstances

Yes. You fight models in base contact. But. As I already explained. You do. 4 wounds. Each of those is multiplied into D6. And as page 51 says, if you do more wounds than there are models in base contact, you take casualties off from the back.

Except you are still ignoring the rule, that the number of wounds a multiple wound weapon can cause is CAPPED at the number of wounds on the models profile.

Or are you now claiming, absurdly, that a D6 wound weapon against 1 wound RnF can cause 1 - 6 models to be removed for every successful wound? Or does your argument not apply here, and is thus inconsistent?

To be more straightforward: I am fighting RnF ogres with a D6 wound weapon. I score 3 wounds, which when rolling get 1, 3, 6.

Due to the multiple wounds rule the "6" gets capped at 3, leaving me with

1, 3, 3

I then go to how I remove casualties, note that this means 2 models are removed (6 wounds), and 1 wound is "stored" in the wound pool for the unit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Except you are still ignoring the rule, that the number of wounds a multiple wound weapon can cause is CAPPED at the number of wounds on the models profile.

You deal three wounds to the models in front of you. And the excess are taken off the back. As per pages 73 and 51.

Now I'm beginning to think you're being deliberately obtuse.

The rule specifically states that the Multiple Wound rule possessing attack cannot do more wounds than the model possesses. There is no carryover because the attack cannot do more than three wounds in the first place, in this example.

If you're fighting ogres, inflict a single unsaved wound, and roll a 6 for the Multiple Wounds, it is reduced to 3 because you can't do more wounds than the Ogre model has. There is no carryover because the number of wounds that attack causes is capped at 3 (in this case).

This is absolutely cut-and-dried. The rules are completely explicit on the subject. The rules on 51 and 73 are nice, but you keep ignoring the rule that states (as Duke posted above) that in these cases WOUNDS DO NOT CARRY OVER (explicitly, "excess wounds are wasted").

I'm not trying to be a prick. It IS a confusing topic and we did argue heatedly over it on at least one occasion before.

But Nos had a great point. If multi-wound carried over, they would absolutely decimate 1 wound RNF.

-A BSB +3 A sword is 60 points.
-A Pirahna blade D3 and AP sword is 50 pts.
-A DoC Balesword is D3 poison for 50pts.

There are other examples but just taking those, the BSB weapon is a pile of crap. Because on average anyone who can wield those other weapons is literally doubling their number of wounds. A greater unclean one would have 5 attacks of D3 poison, averaging 10 wounds (if we use your scenario).

Weapons that are D6 are even crazier. A Dwarf Lord can get runes of D6, +1Attack, Frenzy and still have points leftover. He would be doing 6-36 wounds.

D6 multi-wound vs. 1 wound infantry is totally wasted. Multi-wound attacks have a very specific purpose: anti-monster, MI, MC, hero, etc. It's not bad by any means, but it's not designed to blender through Skaven Slaves. It doesn't even make sense fluff-wise. Attacking one Slave and disintegrating that ONE slave doesn't also disintegrate 5 more. 6 attacks makes sense that you can kill 6 slaves.