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Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

After our house burned down in Wisconsin a few months ago, my husband and I packed our four young kids and all our belongings into a gold minivan and drove to my sister-in-law’s place, just outside of Atlanta. On the back windshield, we pasted six stick figures: a dad, a mom, three young girls, and one baby boy.

That minivan was sitting in the front driveway of my sister-in-law’s place the night a SWAT team broke in, looking for a small amount of drugs they thought my husband’s nephew had. Some of my kids’ toys were in the front yard, but the officers claimed they had no way of knowing children might be present. Our whole family was sleeping in the same room, one bed for us, one for the girls, and a crib.

After the SWAT team broke down the door, they threw a flashbang grenade inside. It landed in my son’s crib.

Flashbang grenades were created for soldiers to use during battle. When they explode, the noise is so loud and the flash is so bright that anyone close by is temporarily blinded and deafened. It’s been three weeks since the flashbang exploded next to my sleeping baby, and he’s still covered in burns.

There’s still a hole in his chest that exposes his ribs. At least that’s what I’ve been told; I’m afraid to look.

My husband’s nephew, the one they were looking for, wasn’t there. He doesn’t even live in that house. After breaking down the door, throwing my husband to the ground, and screaming at my children, the officers – armed with M16s – filed through the house like they were playing war. They searched for drugs and never found any.

I heard my baby wailing and asked one of the officers to let me hold him. He screamed at me to sit down and shut up and blocked my view, so I couldn’t see my son. I could see a singed crib. And I could see a pool of blood. The officers yelled at me to calm down and told me my son was fine, that he’d just lost a tooth. It was only hours later when they finally let us drive to the hospital that we found out Bou Bou was in the intensive burn unit and that he’d been placed into a medically induced coma.

For the last three weeks, my husband and I have been sleeping at the hospital. We tell our son that we love him and we’ll never leave him behind. His car seat is still in the minivan, right where it’s always been, and we whisper to him that soon we’ll be taking him home with us.

Every morning, I have to face the reality that my son is fighting for his life. It’s not clear whether he’ll live or die. All of this to find a small amount of drugs?

The only silver lining I can possibly see is that my baby Bou Bou’s story might make us angry enough that we stop accepting brutal SWAT raids as a normal way to fight the “war on drugs.” I know that this has happened to other families, here in Georgia and across the country. I know that SWAT teams are breaking into homes in the middle of the night, more often than not just to serve search warrants in drug cases. I know that too many local cops have stockpiled weapons that were made for soldiers to take to war. And as is usually the case with aggressive policing, I know that people of color and poor people are more likely to be targeted. I know these things because of the American Civil Liberties Union’s new report, and because I’m working with them to push for restraints on the use of SWAT.

A few nights ago, my 8-year-old woke up in the middle of the night screaming, “No, don’t kill him! You’re hurting my brother! Don’t kill him.” How can I ever make that go away? I used to tell my kids that if they were ever in trouble, they should go to the police for help. Now my kids don’t want to go to sleep at night because they’re afraid the cops will kill them or their family. It’s time to remind the cops that they should be serving and protecting our neighborhoods, not waging war on the people in them.

I pray every minute that I’ll get to hear my son’s laugh again, that I’ll get to watch him eat French fries or hear him sing his favorite song from “Frozen.” I’d give anything to watch him chase after his sisters again. I want justice for my baby, and that means making sure no other family ever has to feel this horrible pain.

Update: As of the afternoon of 6/24/2014, Baby Bou Bou has been taken out of the medically induced coma and transferred to a new hospital to begin rehabilitation. The hole in his chest has yet to heal, and doctors are still not able to fully assess lasting brain damage.
From here.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/25 17:12:45


   
Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

"Tough on crime" meets "think of the children." Whoever wins, we all lose.

Still, I wonder why people react with surprise when I tell them that I trust the police less than potential criminals.

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

This is a really tragic story, and alas one that is all too common.

If cops can be sued for excessive force, this sort of thing has to qualify, right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 daedalus wrote:
"Tough on crime" meets "think of the children." Whoever wins, we all lose.

Still, I wonder why people react with surprise when I tell them that I trust the police less than potential criminals.


At the end of the day, criminals know what they are doing is wrong, and actually fear consquences.

Police feel that what they do is right, and are virtually immune from consequences.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/25 17:16:30


 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

It's pretty simple. If we talk of war on crime, the implication is police are soldiers. And that makes civilians (including babies) enemy combatants.

   
Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

 Polonius wrote:


At the end of the day, criminals know what they are doing is wrong, and actually fear consquences.

Police feel that what they do is right, and are virtually immune from consequences.


“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.” - C.S. Lewis

I need to get away from the internet for a while. :(

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

 Manchu wrote:
It's pretty simple. If we talk of war on crime, the implication is police are soldiers. And that makes civilians (including babies) enemy combatants.


And things like this aren't hard to fix. If states passed laws that required a warrant for violent entry, then police would be protected when they knew they were in genuine danger.

But allowing children to be injured to make things safer for police is putting the cart before the horse.
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

 Polonius wrote:
But allowing children to be injured to make things safer for police is putting the cart before the horse.
B-b-but druuuuugs!

   
Made in us
Hangin' with Gork & Mork






How will we ever win this War on Drugs if we can't (severely) injure a few infants?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/25 17:36:24


Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

And where are our (allegedly) conservative pundits?

   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 Manchu wrote:
And where are our (allegedly) conservative pundits?

What?

I'm outraged at this as well.

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Mistake ONE
Lack of Situational Awareness.
Mistake Two
Not bouncing the flashbang off the floor. You do not toss it in.

Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog
Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.

Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha


 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

No - mistake one: militarizing police.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






More so if the military trained them to use it. Its no gain either way They are given mil grade equipment they become "militarized". If we trained them in use they become more militarized. Either way both the military and LEO still lose with public perception

Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog
Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.

Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha


 
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

It's a cliche, but it's true that when you have a hammer, all of your problems start looking like nails.

Cops are peopel too, and just like anybody, they want to play Action Hero. Carrying an assualt rifle, breaking down doors, flashbangs... this is allowing a desire to feel powerful and cool override common sense.

There have been tragic cases where police where outgunned, but those cases are painfully rare. There are also instances where a SWAT team is necessary. Those, again, are actually pretty rare.

   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

 Jihadin wrote:
Either way both the military and LEO still lose with public perception
This isn't just a PR issue.

There is an irreconcilable difference between police and soldiers.

There is a irreconcilable difference between keeping the peace and fighting wars.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/25 17:58:10


   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Its about the gear they are issue. Flashbang being one of them. No one trained this group on how to properly implement a flashbang.
Tactics are another ballgame.

Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog
Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.

Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha


 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

Police do not need weapons designed for war.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Saratoga Springs, NY

 Jihadin wrote:
Mistake ONE
Lack of Situational Awareness.
Mistake Two
Not bouncing the flashbang off the floor. You do not toss it in.
Exalted.

Probably the fact that my two best friends are an Army soldier and a SWAT team member, but I'd rather have excessive force than have people who volunteer to protect citizens and uphold laws injured by dangerous criminals.

Like watching other people play video games (badly) while blathering about nothing in particular? Check out my Youtube channel: joemamaUSA!

BrianDavion wrote:
Between the two of us... I think GW is assuming we the players are not complete idiots.


Rapidly on path to becoming the world's youngest bitter old man. 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

 Manchu wrote:
Police do not need weapons designed for war.


In some cases they do, as has been proven throughout American history; hence the existence of SWAT.

The issue at hand is the misuse of SWAT. Which, in this case, is very clear.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

The things SWAT does, or at least should be doing, seem like military operations to me. It therefore seems to me that the military could do them.

   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council






Im one of the first to defend the police....but I have no words for this stupidity

5000pts 6000pts 3000pts
 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

This is a telling comment:
 dementedwombat wrote:
I'd rather have excessive force than have people who volunteer to protect citizens and uphold laws injured by dangerous criminals.
So how do you feel about people who volunteer to protect citizens using excessive force to injure them?

"Excessive" force has no place in police work.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/25 18:19:18


   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






I agree. They do not need crew serve weapons, MRAP's, MATV's and/or Frag grenades. Basically other equipment design for combat.
A flashbang (non-lethal) though can be used by either. In this case the LEO who had control of the flashbang fail to utilize it properly. That indicates no training.
It suppose to skip off the floor.
Its suppose to draw the attention of whoever is in the room, away from the entry point, to the flashbang itself before it goes off. Incapacitating whoever is in the room.

*In 1989, police in Minneapolis, Minnesota, conducted a drug raid at the home of an elderly couple, Lloyd Smalley and Lillian Weiss, after receiving inaccurate information from an informant. The flashbang grenades police used in the raid set the home on fire. Police said they were certain no one was inside, and so, at first, made no attempt at rescue. Smalley and Weiss died of smoke inhalation

*In May 2003, a woman named Alberta Spruill died from a heart attack after a police team detonated a stun grenade at her residence in Harlem, New York. Her family eventually won a $1.6 million civil suit against the city.

In January 2011, a California man named Rogelio Serrato died of smoke inhalation after a flashbang grenade launched by a police SWAT team ignited a fire in his home.[8] The man was believed to have been hiding in the attic when the fire broke out.

*In February 2011, a North Carolina SWAT police officer was injured at his home when a stun grenade accidentally detonated while he was attempting to secure his equipment. He underwent emergency surgery, but later died of his injuries.

*In January 2014, a man was severely injured during rioting caused by the 2014 Ukrainian revolution after he attempted to pick up a live, undetonated stun grenade. The grenade detonated seconds before he could reach it. The explosion caused damage to his right hand and arm, leading to the loss of most of his fingers, as well as heavy blood loss. As of February 2014, the man's condition is unknown.[10] However, a video of it has been uploaded to LiveLeak.

*On May 28, 2014, a 19-month-old baby was severely burned and placed in a medically induced coma after a SWAT team raided a home in Cornelia, Georgia at 2 a.m


Just by these incidents (Wikipedia) I can safely say. Bad Intel, stupidity, and lack of positive control of a stun grenade. Though when the military use it we generally know who's behind the door



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Manchu wrote:
The things SWAT does, or at least should be doing, seem like military operations to me. It therefore seems to me that the military could do them.


There's a difference. If there is a civilian sniper. Who would handle the situation better. A Infantry Platoon or a SWAT unit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/25 18:27:01


Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog
Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.

Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha


 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

 Manchu wrote:
The things SWAT does, or at least should be doing, seem like military operations to me. It therefore seems to me that the military could do them.


But the military cannot, legally, do such things.

The existence of SWAT is definitely the militarization of the police, but the root issue is its misuse; not SWAT's existence.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

I have no objection to the military using grenades to fight enemy combatants.

My objection is to suspects being treated by the police as enemy combatants. Militarizing the police through equipment and training tends to facilitate this.

One might expect those who fear the government is too powerful and intrusive would object to militarization of the police.
 dogma wrote:
 Manchu wrote:
The things SWAT does, or at least should be doing, seem like military operations to me. It therefore seems to me that the military could do them.
But the military cannot, legally, do such things.
And so we militarize police as an end run around the law. As Jihadin seems to be pointing out, pretending that some paramilitary forces are police can have significant disadvantages when it comes to effectiveness.

If there is a need to use military force in the criminal context then elected officials should have to call on the actual military and take responsibility for explaining the need.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/25 18:35:31


   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

 Manchu wrote:
I have no objection to the military using grenades to fight enemy combatants.

My objection is to suspects being treated by the police as enemy combatants. Militarizing the police through equipment and training tends to facilitate this.

One might expect those who fear the government is too powerful and intrusive would object to militarization of the police.


Whatever factor leads people to fear the government seem to have a huge blind spot for LEOs. That's not surprising, as people tend to be hyporcritical about the things they know well and like (see Medicare spending).


 dogma wrote:
 Manchu wrote:
The things SWAT does, or at least should be doing, seem like military operations to me. It therefore seems to me that the military could do them.
But the military cannot, legally, do such things.
And so we militarize police as an end run around the law. As Jihadin seems to be pointing out, pretending that some paramilitary forces are police can have significant disadvantages when it comes to effectiveness.

If there is a need to use military force in the criminal context then elected officials should have to call on the actual military and take responsibility for explaining the need.


Well, what police do, even in SWAT raid, isn't something that the military is particularly trained on. Giving police the tools they need to deal with real situations is fine, it's just that there should be some oversight on their use.

Odds are, the civil suits will bleed this issue dry.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/25 18:42:24


 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

Civil liability is not a great quality control approach.

   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

 Manchu wrote:
Civil liability is not a great quality control approach.


What else is, when police are involved?
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

I would suggest de-militarization.

   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

 Manchu wrote:
I would suggest de-militarization.


By what mechanism? FEderal law? State law? Local laws?

I wouldn't want to be the governor of a state after signing that law the first time a LEO was killed in the line.

I'd be all for it, but I think it will take the mean old courts to spoil this party.
   
 
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