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mrfantastical wrote:


** I understand the book isn't out yet.

Do you?

mrfantastical wrote:
Now with the new rules, that list is invalid. Also the list drops it's hitting and staying power.
*nobz can't be troops

Actual loss. Nobz with objective secured might have been a bit strong though.

*not enough slots for both Lootas & Mek Gunz

Since they both fill the same role, I don't think that's a problem either field lootaz or mek gunz. Or just field four units of boyz and field both, it's not like mobs of 30 are mandatory anymore.

*no inv

Only relevant if you can't use your armor save and you're not protected by a KFF. Unless you're lucky you aren't going to beat Khan with a warboss either way.

*have to now spend an extra grot unit tax

Why? What for?

*lost exhaust cloud

As posted before in the other thread, jinking warbikers have lost less than 2% in efficiency compared to their 4th edition counterparts. You get more orks for less points and you only actually have to jink if someone is shooting you with AP4 or less weaponry. There is no need to jink against bolters since they don't ignore your 4+ armor, so you can return fire at full BS2 for almost twice as many hits per point spent than before.
Nob bikers aren't the top dog anymore, warbikers are.

I replay that game in my mind, with the new rules, and i don't think I would have done as well. I can't make that list work now, and it was the best I could find in this edition so far.

I get that we have to relearn Orks, but nothing so far leaked is striking me as, "WOW that'll really help my game play"... It's all been a bunch of Meh.

Well, of course you can't just take an old list, apply codex and hope for it to be better. That didn't even work well for eldar. Just look how many fire dragons there are nowadays, before their current codex every list was sporting three units.

However, if you change up your list a bit, it can easily become a lot better. Add a tenth cannon so you can have two batteries of 5 KMK, add 15 lootaz as third choice. Use all those point from your nob bikers and lootaz and turn them into three units of 15 bikers, add your choice of painboy on a bike or KFF on a bike, another unit gets the warboss with his brand new lukky stikk for +1 WS and 2 rerolls a turn. Duplicate whatever boyz unit you were using before and you've got your playstyle back to what is was like before, with a bunch of new and efficient units.

Davor wrote:

What I am saying is we give GW flak for not playtesting. So how can we COMPLAIN about lousy codicies when we do the same. We are claiming we are so much smarter than GW, but yet do the EXACT same thing and just mathhammer. So if we can Mathhamer and complain, GW can mathhammer and make codicies.

If we are making educated guesses, GW can make educated guesses as well and they have been doing it for 30 years now. (Fantasy included.) What I am saying is our complaining is invalidated since we are doing the same thing we say GW is doing. So how can we take our complaints seriously? If our complaints our valid, then GW design is valid as well.

In other words, we are Hypocrites. Doing what we complaint about.

Because we are not the frelling game designers! How hard is that to understand? We are not the ones being literally paid to create the game, we are the ones PAYING money to play. Do you expect to play test board games? Of course not! This is no different! If we can see within 5 minutes of seeing a codex that Pyrovores are awful in every single way, why in the world are the paid game designers incapable of seeing that?

 Yonan wrote:

Davor wrote:
What I am saying is we give GW flak for not playtesting. So how can we COMPLAIN about lousy codicies when we do the same.

GW has to playtest because we pay them a premium to make good rules. Playtesting is a part of making good rules. No one has paid us to playtest, and not only that we *can't* playtest yet. When we can we will - until then, we'll discuss what we know. Nothing hypocritical about that in the slightest until GW start paying us.

And perfect example of why the world thinks we are weird. Complain about not trying something that is even out yet. No wonder we are labeled geeks and nerds.

I can't understand the fact either how can people complain about the codex before it is even out yet?

In my opintion complaining about Ork codex being nerfed is the worst out of all codex rants. Isn't the whole objective of playing an Ork army is about fun and not winning? heck even the orks themselves fight not for the win but for the enjoyment.

I would suggest the OP to at least get the codex first, have a read through and then make objective critisims to gain the internet sypathy?

I play Dark Angels btw

 streamdragon wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I think the problem is that people are ignoring the potential to have 5++/5+++ pseudo-fleeting Waaagh! Boy squads. There's a lot of complaints about what was lost, but not much about what was gained.

We're not. There's just also no such thing. 5++ KFF only applies to models, and only vs shooting. The 5+ FNP from a Painboy is very nice for Boyz though, and I have already said it will be a staple in a very, very crowded slot (HQ). Warbosses will have a hard time justifying their slot, honestly, having to compete with Big Meks (5++ KFF on a bike is nice for vehicles) and Pain Boyz (for 5+ FnP).

It's only the front Boyz that actually need the 5++ though, no? The rear of the mob isn't going to be taking shots anyway, and as such won't care about not having it. Further, Gorkanauts (or is that Morkanauts? Can't ever remember which one's which) also have KFF options, with the added bonus of covering a lot of Boyz with it, being AV13 5HP to mitigate the worst of the S7 anti-light tank spam.

Above all else though, the return of the "old" Waaagh! rule, along with pseudo-fleet, seems as though it'd help assaulty Orks tremendously. It's certainly better assault rules than any other melee army bar possibly Daemons has gotten since 6th hit.

wufai wrote:
I can't understand the fact either how can people complain about the codex before it is even out yet?

In my opintion complaining about Ork codex being nerfed is the worst out of all codex rants. Isn't the whole objective of playing an Ork army is about fun and not winning? heck even the orks themselves fight not for the win but for the enjoyment.

I would suggest the OP to at least get the codex first, have a read through and then make objective critisims to gain the internet sypathy?

I play Dark Angels btw

It is out. Black Library messed up their download system and several people (including a dakkanaut) were able to download it. We know basically 100% of what is in it.

And no, the point of Orks like any other army in 40k is to play a game. Whether you play SUPAH HARDCORE MUST WIN or just for funsies is entirely the player, not the army. Getting really tired of that garbage being thrown about like orks exist purely to get the snot kicked out of them by other armies, and all ork players are somehow okay with this. They're an army. No different applicability to the game that your own dark angels or any of the other armies out there. I'm not trying any less to win with my orks than I am when I play space wolves, sisters, guard, tyranids, or salamanders.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I think the problem is that people are ignoring the potential to have 5++/5+++ pseudo-fleeting Waaagh! Boy squads. There's a lot of complaints about what was lost, but not much about what was gained.

We're not. There's just also no such thing. 5++ KFF only applies to models, and only vs shooting. The 5+ FNP from a Painboy is very nice for Boyz though, and I have already said it will be a staple in a very, very crowded slot (HQ). Warbosses will have a hard time justifying their slot, honestly, having to compete with Big Meks (5++ KFF on a bike is nice for vehicles) and Pain Boyz (for 5+ FnP).

It's only the front Boyz that actually need the 5++ though, no? The rear of the mob isn't going to be taking shots anyway, and as such won't care about not having it. Further, Gorkanauts (or is that Morkanauts? Can't ever remember which one's which) also have KFF options, with the added bonus of covering a lot of Boyz with it, being AV13 5HP to mitigate the worst of the S7 anti-light tank spam.

Above all else though, the return of the "old" Waaagh! rule, along with pseudo-fleet, seems as though it'd help assaulty Orks tremendously. It's certainly better assault rules than any other melee army bar possibly Daemons has gotten since 6th hit.

Yes, against shooting only the front boyz need the 5++. And yes, the Morkanaut (gorkanaut is just a shooty walker transport) gets a KFF also. The KFF being a ++ save instead of cover is nice, don't get me wrong. No more Ignores Cover weapons or markerlights making my KFF pointless. I just meant that it explicitly only applies to shooting instead of being a general save. I don't think I've complained too much about the KFF change, and I think for vehicles the new rule is better. It also stays in line with Dark Angles PFG in that if the character goes into a vehicle only that vehicle gets the save. Granted the PFG provides a better save at [I believe] a cheaper cost, on a sturdier carrier, but I'll take what I can get.

The new Waaagh is nice for assaulty units, yes. Never claimed otherwise. My complaint is that they had a chance and precedent to make Waaagh a more meaningful rule for all units, by building off the Waaagh Plane rule. Let shooty units get a benefit for Waaaghing, especially now that it's no longer an army wide special rule but requires a warboss. But no. In a shocking twist, that shocks no one and isn't a twist, GW took the lazy way out (nerfing Waaagh Plane in the process).

So my initial question remains. How many games does the OP have in with the new codex?
He cited untrue and extreme examples admittedly. So relax man. Take the bullets out of the gun. Learn from the nids book. Which time has shown it wasn't a bad book just terribly average.

My point remains the same:

Reading comprehension can tell us what an army will do without having to have actually put dice to the table.

And I'm not the OP. I'm the one that tried to illustrate my above point with extreme examples, not OP.

 streamdragon wrote:
My point remains the same:

Reading comprehension can tell us what an army will do without having to have actually put dice to the table.

And I'm not the OP. I'm the one that tried to illustrate my above point with extreme examples, not OP.

This. You don't have to "wait and see" if you can look at the rules and see things that are good or bad. Anyone with a brain can look at rules and see if they are objectively good or bad, without playing a single game.

Davor wrote:

 Yonan wrote:

Davor wrote:
What I am saying is we give GW flak for not playtesting. So how can we COMPLAIN about lousy codicies when we do the same.

GW has to playtest because we pay them a premium to make good rules. Playtesting is a part of making good rules. No one has paid us to playtest, and not only that we *can't* playtest yet. When we can we will - until then, we'll discuss what we know. Nothing hypocritical about that in the slightest until GW start paying us.

And perfect example of why the world thinks we are weird. Complain about not trying something that is even out yet. No wonder we are labeled geeks and nerds.

The world things nerds are weird because of poor social skills and hygiene. Complaining about something that isn't released is frequent when information about the product is known beforehand. Do you recall the huge outcry about xbox one "features" before it was released? Do you remember the huge backtracking and changes MS implemented because of it, resulting in a much better product? I do.

Since we are venting. I run a green tide list. Tons of boys with supporting fire (Lobbas, Lootas), a little bit of fast attack on the flanks (Bikes and Kopters). I've already picked up flash gits, a gorkanaught and a mek gun kit to assemble and play with, but of all the changes.....of all the #%&$ing changes......my shootas went up in cost. This is devastating to me, because of the sheer number of boys I had crammed into my 1850 list. You might not think its a big deal, but it hurts me and I am being forced to switch at least 2 of my units to melee orks that weren't in the past...and you know what is still garbage? Melee. (I just want my rampaging angry orks to attack at ini 4, for the love of god have you ever charged a Space Wolves unit? Why are the most warlike, melee oriented creatures in the galaxy so $#%^ing slow) I fight mostly Space Marines in my group, and at this point, I've spent so long being someone's NPC, its getting tiresome. In the end, it's like Steamdragon said: The book isn't bad, there is good in it (I might be able to save some shootas with the point changes elsewhere), but it's uninspired. I've been getting my ass kicked and having a good time doing it because I've become the master of taking objectives with grots while my boys tarpit the enemies army, but all I wanted from the book was like 1 thing to put fear into my enemies. They aren't afraid of anything I field. Maybe I'll roll well on my flashgits AP....of course they lost their 4+ armor. Entire imperial army is wearing armor....and most every character in the game has an invuln. Not my Warboss though.

/end rant

<sigh>

I'll be playing with the new codex as soon as I can (not this weekend likely, as I have to go to a party to bid farewell to my boss), and I'm going to play a lot of games with it and almost certainly will use it in a tournament in a few weeks. I pre-ordered the Warboss edition even. I love my Orks, I will be playing them again a lot.

That said...

I do think there were some things that I'm not keen on. First, the continued lack of power weapons outside of power claws in my Boyz mobs. Unfortunately, Boyz still seem like you better hope you do a LOT on the first round, or they'll start crumbling. Nobz are the prime CC unit, really, since they'll keep S4 in the second and later rounds of combat. The one saving grace is being able to buy 'eavy armor for multiple units. I'm going to try an army of 'eavy armored Slugga Boyz, see how that works out.

One of the biggest problems is the new morale rules (which gets even crazier in a Ghazghkull army). If you deal 25% casualties to an Ork unit, they have to make a Ld7/8 test, or likely lose more models. Since they're allowed saves, this is where 'eavy armor helps, except that it's not available for Tankbustas, Burna Boyz, or Lootas, all of which are in the 14-16 point range PER MODEL, so if you kill at most four of them in a turn, they're likely to fail Ld (I think only TBs can get an actual Nob), and then lose more of those expensive models. In an assault, you're almost always going to lose more Orks than you'll kill Space Marines, so you'll lose assault, likely fail the Ld test, and then have more Orks die as a result, meaning Ork mobs crumble more in combat (unless you roll a 1... but that's not possible with the Ghaz army, it'll be a 3).

The inability to take multiples of certain types of characters upsets me, especially after the AM book. You can take multiple psykers and/or multiple Priests without taking an HQ slot even, and then dole them out to squads to boost them. Well, Meks and Painboys are basically there to supplement squads, but we can't do that. So unless you play Unbound (and GW is really pushing that, they're trying to tell Ork players that every game they play should be Unbound), you're not going to be able to fit in enough of those guys to really help. You pretty much end up with a Warboss (because you need it), and, if the claims of 3 HQ are true, a Big Mek with KFF and a Painboy, and stick them all in one unit, either 'Ard Boyz or tooled-up Nobz, giving this one unit the survivability to get across the battlefield and into combat. But that makes a serious target for your opponents.

At that point, an Aegis line is a "must-buy" for your artillery and Lootas. Its base cost is the same as a KFF, and while things that ignore cover will go through it, it can be stretched out to protect more guys, with a better save. You'll need that so your gunline doesn't die because the KFF and Painboy are trying to protect your designated "killing mob."

Also not keen on Killer Kans costing more *and* basically having a morale check... but that morale check only makes their shooting meh. Sucks for Grotzookas, or my models armed with Skorchas, because they can't fire then, but you can still get them forward and try to get into assault, where they do their real damage. It's worth it to go with six KKs and take a Deff Dread to put near them to boost their morale, though that does eat two Heavy Support slots... but it will seriously get your opponent's attention.

Combining some of the ideas above, and I'm not sure what kind of points this would be like, but let's assume the 3 HQ/9 Troops is true, and spit out a concept list:

Warboss with goodness
Mek with KFF
Painboy
10 Nobz with armor, some PKs, some BCs, in a Battlewagon (maybe even with a Killkannon for close-up anti-Marine support)
30 'Ard Boyz, 3 rokkits, Nob w/PK
30 'Ard Boyz, 3 rokkits, Nob w/PK
30 'Ard Boyz, 3 rokkits, Nob w/PK
6 Killer Kans, all rokkits
Deff Dread, rokkit and big shoota (or just go all Dread CCWs)
15 Lootas
Aegis Defense Line

That should be doable in 1850-2000, something like that. Possibly room for more. Lootas set up a gunline behind the wall to provide supporting fire. The three characters hop in Battlewagon with Nobz (if you want killkannon, you have to drop a Nob to get back to 12 transport; drop two if your Warboss has mega-armor; or just make the Nobz Mega-Nobz and take fewer... actually, maybe a better idea, as they're relatively cheap and will klaw-rip anything). The big mobs can march forward firing pot-shots and shrugging off a lot of small arms fire. The Kans should all group up and find some vehicles to shred, running toward them as fast as possible. There's multiple threats, some survivability built in, has assault and shooty.

There's bad, there's good, there's "WTF?!?" I'll just go back to my old Ork tactics of "act like a lunatic and figure that'll save you."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Saevus wrote:
for the love of god have you ever charged a Space Wolves unit

Yes. Hold on, it gets worse.

I play a Space Wolf player who takes IG allies, not just for the Command Squad with Master of Ordnance and Manticore with camo netting he parks behind an Aegis line (along with his Long Fangs packs), but also for Ministorum Priests. He runs two squads of Grey Hunters with Ministorum Priest and either a Rune Priest or a Primaris Psyker, both of them with Biomancy, hoping to get Endurance. If he gets Endurance (and he always gets it on at least one of them), and he's able to cast that and get the Priest's ability off, you're now looking at a squad with WS4, S4, T4, I4, plenty of attacks, Counter-Assault, 3+ armor (reroll fails), 4+ FNP, and Hatred (plus Relentless, because why not?).

I watch large mobs of Slugga Boyz just evaporate upon contact. And I'm the one charging! It is just so disheartening and crushing. Every time it happens, I just want to stop playing. It takes two turns for my army to be obliterated by his combination of shooting and two damn near unkillable units that shred my guys in the area my guys are supposed to be good.

I thought Endurance was only the model, and not the unit?

Regardless, you dont need to play unbound. 2 CAD. Done. 4 units of boyz, and 2 HQ, and youre at 2 CAD already if you wish...

i am on the side that doesn't think orks got hit to bad, it has invalidated some over the top lists like cult of speed without doing it unbound, and the mob rule doesnt seem so hot. but with the increase to our charge range how many turns will we be out of combat? dakka jets were a little silly on the waaagh, but did we really loose any shots? we waaagh every turn after 1st with warboss so 9 shots turns to 18 once per game or 9 shots turns to 12 5 out of 6 turns (i believe thats right the waaagh plane fires 1 extra shot per gun? used to be guns fire twice)

WayneTheGame wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:
My point remains the same:

Reading comprehension can tell us what an army will do without having to have actually put dice to the table.

And I'm not the OP. I'm the one that tried to illustrate my above point with extreme examples, not OP.

This. You don't have to "wait and see" if you can look at the rules and see things that are good or bad. Anyone with a brain can look at rules and see if they are objectively good or bad, without playing a single game.

Exactly!^ I don't play Orks so have no idea what the new dex is like. However, remember when the 5th ed tyranid dex was released in 2010? One read through it brought the realization of a number of problems. On first read it was clear the trygon tunnel was garbage and would not work (and of course GW didn't fix it in 4 years and a new dex either). Playing games is certainly useful to understand some combinations or uses of units better but that does not change the fact that a person can understand how something works (or doesn't) just from reading with no playtesting necessary.

I do hope the Ork dex did not get the tyranid treatment. And for those that think if a dex has a strong build it is a good dex think again. Just because a powerful build can be made from the nid dex and dataslate (such as skyblight) does not make the dex a good dex. If winning was the only criteria for a good dex than GW just could have increased the points of all units and upgrades by 50% and take away most armour saves or whatever as long as they make the pyrovore 20 wounds, eternal warrior, 3++ save and each turn you roll a die for each pyrovore in your army and that is how many enemy units you get to remove from anywhere on the board (and reserves), no saves of any kind allowed. Nids would win continuously but would we say the dex was a good dex? Winning is not the only criteria for a good dex.

wufai wrote:
I can't understand the fact either how can people complain about the codex before it is even out yet?

In my opintion complaining about Ork codex being nerfed is the worst out of all codex rants. Isn't the whole objective of playing an Ork army is about fun and not winning? heck even the orks themselves fight not for the win but for the enjoyment.

I would suggest the OP to at least get the codex first, have a read through and then make objective critisims to gain the internet sypathy?

I play Dark Angels btw

I intend on playing a few games, and trying the book out to see if my feeling has improved. My initial reaction comes from the new codex which nerfed my list, and gained very little.

Also i don't play Orks because I "don't want to win", that's just silly. I realize my book has a history of getting abused by GW, yet somehow we find a way to overcome. It just feels like this latest batch of Meh, that is suppose to be improved rules, takes more then it gives back.

Orks were already bottom tier.

Davor wrote:
What I am saying is we give GW flak for not playtesting. So how can we COMPLAIN about lousy codicies when we do the same. We are claiming we are so much smarter than GW, but yet do the EXACT same thing and just mathhammer. So if we can Mathhamer and complain, GW can mathhammer and make codicies.

If we are making educated guesses, GW can make educated guesses as well and they have been doing it for 30 years now. (Fantasy included.) What I am saying is our complaining is invalidated since we are doing the same thing we say GW is doing. So how can we take our complaints seriously? If our complaints our valid, then GW design is valid as well.

In other words, we are Hypocrites. Doing what we complaint about.

Honestly, I don't think GW do any mathhammer at all. If they did, they wouldn't have some of the blatantly obvious balance flaws they have. The most obvious ones are weapon upgrades for units, so often you can see just at a glance the points values for weapon upgrades are skewed compared to their actual effectiveness. Games Workshop are so horrible at balance some of these things are just obvious.

And no, it's not being hypocritical. If we were releasing rules for premium prices and not playtesting them, then yeah, we'd be hypocritical.

No, our complaining is not invalidated. We have playtested previous editions thoroughly and can see what changes will have what effect. It may be less valid than comments made 6 months from now, but as with the Tyranid codex, I reckon there's a good chance many of the complaints we have now will be the same complaints we have in 6 months. The only difference being that Orks are in the spotlight now where as in 6 months they will be less so.

If our complaints our valid, then GW design is valid as well.

I'm sorry, but what are you smoking? I want some. This is ludicrous, comparing freely offered comments from an unpaid group of CONSUMERS to the EXPENSIVELY offered rulebooks of the company and developers who are PAID to write them?

Also consider the fact many of the conclusions drawn from these consumers are based on discussions with a wide cross section of the community, something GW fail to do.

Davor wrote:
And perfect example of why the world thinks we are weird. Complain about not trying something that is even out yet. No wonder we are labeled geeks and nerds.

This might be the most insane thing I've ever read on dakka. Not only are you just flat out wrong, but what exactly does being a "geek" or a "nerd" mean to you, that you associate it with things like that? And why would you think that when you yourself subscribe to those same labels, since you used "we"? And why would you post that on here of all places, a miniatures wargaming forum? You don't strike me as a troll, but I could be wrong. If not, I'd suggest you take some time to do some deep thinking about your assumptions regarding social constructs and stereotypes, not to mention how you project your insecurities outwards.

forgotten ghosts wrote:
i am on the side that doesn't think orks got hit to bad, it has invalidated some over the top lists like cult of speed without doing it unbound...

Was cult of speed really "over the top"? Armies centered around trukk boys and warbikes were arguably less effective than the same points spent on horde units and heavy vehicles. The only really exceptional unit was nob bikers, and those are almost unchanged... except now they can't take an invulnerable save in CC. Speed freeks was a good army for getting into people's faces with small units quickly, but a unit of 12 boys has trouble against most things in CC if their target survives the charge - and even more now because of the casualties they'll take from mob rule and s4 exploding trukks. It was unreliable at best in the previous edition, I don't think it was screaming out for a nerf. Here's hoping they throw us a bone and make a formation or something.

forgotten ghosts wrote:
we waaagh every turn after 1st with warboss...

Only if you take the warband formation - warboss, nobs, six units of boys, and grots. Otherwise it's still once per game.

I think that op has lost sight of what the ork codex is about. Ita the tog ii of 40k. One does not simply play a tog ii because one should, one plays tog ii because he can. Ork codex = party codex; when an ork player comes to the table you should get ready to have a blast and just chill out.

You shouldn't be playing orks if you expect to cue for tournaments that's not their intent as a codex. Their intent is to break the pace from all these stone cold faced, ultra serious armies and just mellow this game the feth out.

I hope they keep this charm and trait in their new book. If they have tried to ham fist seriousness and competitiveness into the ork codex I will be one very sad panda

My knee jerk reactions to the news was very negative; however I stopped looking at the orks I own and how I used to play them with the old book and looked at what the new one provides.

FlashGitz, IMO, are better than Lootaz now. Slightly different purpose but Nobz with AP3 Assault 3 gunz are mighting appealing to me.

Painboyz as ICs are amzing. Think about a 30 boyz squad now all with FNP.

Ghazghkull as LoW is awesome! - Warlords don't need to be HQs, just any character from your primary detachment (in a battle-forged list). This frees up your HQ slots for more Painboyz, Shokk Attack Gunz, etc.

Boyz could have a maximum assault threat range of 33-35". Trukk with RPJ and Bording planks move 7". Disembark 6" (13"). Waagh Run 6" (19") Charge 14" (33"). +2" if you have the book Warlord Trait that gives +1" to run and charge ranges.

Tankbustas can shoot anything they want.

Bustas and Burnas come with DT options.


There's other things as well but the more I looked at things like this and compare it to the old codex and the negatives, I REALLY like the new book "on paper". This, of course, can all change once I play a few games.

The only true annoyance I have in the book at the moment is that Heavy Support slots are at a premium.

You didnt lose half your named dudes like ig so quiet thyself.

The Home Nuggeteer wrote:You didnt lose half your named dudes like ig so quiet thyself.

Maybe not half, but we lost two of the most popular special characters by far out of our five, and one of them became a LoW for some reason, so... I guess I expected more sympathy?

Unholyllama wrote:My knee jerk reactions to the news was very negative; however I stopped looking at the orks I own and how I used to play them with the old book and looked at what the new one provides.

FlashGitz, IMO, are better than Lootaz now. Slightly different purpose but Nobz with AP3 Assault 3 gunz are mighting appealing to me.

Painboyz as ICs are amzing. Think about a 30 boyz squad now all with FNP.

Ghazghkull as LoW is awesome! - Warlords don't need to be HQs, just any character from your primary detachment (in a battle-forged list). This frees up your HQ slots for more Painboyz, Shokk Attack Gunz, etc.

Boyz could have a maximum assault threat range of 33-35". Trukk with RPJ and Bording planks move 7". Disembark 6" (13"). Waagh Run 6" (19") Charge 14" (33"). +2" if you have the book Warlord Trait that gives +1" to run and charge ranges.

Tankbustas can shoot anything they want.

Bustas and Burnas come with DT options.

There's other things as well but the more I looked at things like this and compare it to the old codex and the negatives, I REALLY like the new book "on paper". This, of course, can all change once I play a few games.

The only true annoyance I have in the book at the moment is that Heavy Support slots are at a premium.

Flash Gitz are AP d6, not 3. And they don't have heavy armour, either, so they're much less durable than their T4 W2 might imply. I admit they're much better now than they used to be - but I don't think they're better than lootas, not by a long shot. If they were elites, I could see them filling a different role, but as a competitor in Heavy Support they're outclassed.

Nothing but good things can come from painboys being an independant HQ. It's a good change, except maybe that it's using up an HQ slot, but that's not really a big problem.

Ghazghkull as a Lord of War is... weird. I get that it's not really anything but a change of where he fits in the chart, but he doesn't really fit the theme of a Lord of War, right? Lords of War are like: an ascendant star god, a city block sized siege tank, a hulking daemon engine powered by murder... or a somewhat bigger and meaner Ork Warboss. Which of these is not like the others?

Extra charge range is fantastic. No complaints there.

Tankbustas are objectively better, no doubt. And they actually have tank hunter now, about time!

More dedicated transports are good, but it sucks that burna boys went up in cost. Were they really that stellar before, even without a DT?

My problem mostly rests in the mob rule nerf, the lost flavor from special characters, and the cut and paste writing. Most people play orks want to play orks, orks don't run from a waaagh. I can make something playable out of this mess, but it would always feel like I was playing Codex Grots.

 Jambles wrote:


Flash Gitz are AP d6, not 3. And they don't have heavy armour, either, so they're much less durable than their T4 W2 might imply. I admit they're much better now than they used to be - but I don't think they're better than lootas, not by a long shot. If they were elites, I could see them filling a different role, but as a competitor in Heavy Support they're outclassed.

I knew AP3 felt wrong when typing. Forgot they were D6. Even so though, they are a consistent 3 shots, can be BS3, and they have a 66% chance of being AP4 or better. They don't have access to 'Eavy Armor which does suck; however, they can take a DT and are Nob profile instead of Boy profile. The consistency in number of shots, potential of BS3 , and the DT are the reason why I'm rating them higher than Lootas at the moment. Now Lootas are a lot cheaper and have a strong gun strength but the consistency and potential to have AP3 or better shots is very appealing.

As for the burnas, they are "ok" in 6th; however, they had the only close combat weapons in the codex with an AP value other than the PKs. I haven't heard if burnas are still AP3 or not; however, if so, they gain a boost in not requiring someone else's trukk or wagon and the new No Escape USR on Template weapons. Bring a Prometheum Pipe Relay fortification and you now have a unit of Torrent Burnas behind a 4+ cover (that can hurt you yes but it's still 4+ cover). So, really they are still situational but very effective against Tau, Daemons, DE, and Nids at range and good against MEQ in CC (if the AP3 hasn't changed).

The Bustas updates are great for the sole reason a unit full of AP3 weapons now don't have to try and keep shooting at a lone flyer instead of the MEQ on the ground right in front of them. Tank Hunter and a DT help to reduce an Ork's reliance on PKs for anti-tank which also helps.

I can only base my opinions off of the rumors I've heard and the white dwarf pages I've seen, but I feel like orks gained more than they lost. The fact that you have the chance to run and charge is huge! For the first time in a while orks can have BS3 without relying on gretchin (dakkajet aside). Seriously guys, give the codex a chance before you condemn it. Remember, tau players were bitching that their codex sucked the first week it came out because their devilfish weren't good (something about it not being a fast skimmer or something) and their flyers sucked. Eldar players were furious that they couldn't automatically get fortune and doom anymore. So what if some of the units you relied on were nerfed; find some new ones and enjoy the fact that you have the chance to change up the way you play your greenskins.

Btw I know you guys are anxious to get your opinions about the orks out on the internet. It's been a long and slow release and we're all screaming, "just release the damned book already!" Sorry you've had to wait this long. Anyway, I hope you all don't shelve your orks because I really enjoy playing against you guys.

mrfantastical wrote:
I have played a pseudo-game of 7th and I used the new Mek Gun rules in that list.

mrfantastical wrote:
Now with the new rules, that list is invalid.

mrfantastical wrote:
I replay that game in my mind, with the new rules, and i don't think I would have done as well. I can't make that list work now

"I made a list for the new edition a moment before the Codex came out and am surprised that I can't replicate it with the new book(that I don't own yet anyway). My army is broken, can't play, thanks Obama."

I'm sorry, I know you have your point and I get it, but this really struck me there. Just.. wait, get the new book, look at what you can do with it, play it. People cried that IG/Astra Militarum will be unplayable before the Codex hit and suddenly it's a very solid army with several playstyles available and enough tools to be relevant on the table. Last minute list building is always going to end up bad as various kinds of balance and point tweaks are going to happen to 'refresh' the army.

I guess it was a rumor that boys were able to get cyborg body's for the 6+ FnP?

Can anyone explain why Dok Grosnik has both doks tools, gives him and his unit (5+) FnP and cyborg body for (6+) FnP?

I wouldn't get too worked up about it. I at first was thinking the book was going to be amazing! Then I heard things that were going to be in it. Then I felt sad. But now, I've come to realize I was really only upset because nothing I was really WANTING to happen, happened. But that doesn't make this book BAD. I'm excited for it. There were some questionable choice being made, such as Kan point increase while losing their Dreadnaught weaponry and getting a slightly worse variant, or Cybork Body being a FNP save instead of Invul.

But as I began to see the changes roll out, I feel this isn't bad at all. A lot of buffs were given in exchange for some things. Though the Mob rule changed, it will benefit our smaller squads a bit more, so they don't simply RUN like they used too. Our TankBustas are WAY better than before with their point decrease and overall ability and gear buffs. Kommandoz will see more play as well with new abilities and lowered point cost, our Bikes got dirt cheap, even though they lost the auto cover, which isn't a much of a loss as I thought it might be. We got some really awesome Relics in this book, our KFF is a 5++ save instead of cover, though has to be used more wisely as it's now a per model basis, not per unit. We got some Armorbane klaws! FINALLY! We have usable Psychic powers now! StormBoyz are a little cheaper, and can be taken in larger max squads now, which is awesome (Despite Zagstrucks changes). Our WAAAAAGH! Now allows us to be the only army right now to get Move, Run, and Charge again, a boon we needed severely. Our basic CC Boyz are a little better overall, capable of getting Ard Armor. While not a HUGE boon, its still nice to get saves against bolters. DeffKopters are cheaper. Almost anything that can take Rokkits gets it as a free exchange these days for us, so thats HUGE. Even Kopters get it for free...and they got CHEAPER.

While it might seem like a cop out, the supplement sounds amazing as well from what I've been told as well, and I plan on getting it for the cool formations.

It's not all bad. You just have to admire the good as well. It's a new edition and a new book. We just have to weed out what works for us as individuals.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Johnnytorrance wrote:
I guess it was a rumor that boys were able to get cyborg body's for the 6+ FnP?

Can anyone explain why Dok Grosnik has both doks tools, gives him and his unit (5+) FnP and cyborg body for (6+) FnP?

Seemed like an oversight on GW part. It seemed like they originally planned to keep the 5++ from Cybork, but decided last minute to make it FNP, but didn't update his profile. :(


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Klerych wrote:

mrfantastical wrote:
I have played a pseudo-game of 7th and I used the new Mek Gun rules in that list.

mrfantastical wrote:
Now with the new rules, that list is invalid.

mrfantastical wrote:
I replay that game in my mind, with the new rules, and i don't think I would have done as well. I can't make that list work now

"I made a list for the new edition a moment before the Codex came out and am surprised that I can't replicate it with the new book(that I don't own yet anyway). My army is broken, can't play, thanks Obama."

I'm sorry, I know you have your point and I get it, but this really struck me there. Just.. wait, get the new book, look at what you can do with it, play it. People cried that IG/Astra Militarum will be unplayable before the Codex hit and suddenly it's a very solid army with several playstyles available and enough tools to be relevant on the table. Last minute list building is always going to end up bad as various kinds of balance and point tweaks are going to happen to 'refresh' the army.

Damn it Obama! Stop fething up my Orks!

 ErikSetzer wrote:


Yes. Hold on, it gets worse.

Spoiler:

I play a Space Wolf player who takes IG allies, not just for the Command Squad with Master of Ordnance and Manticore with camo netting he parks behind an Aegis line (along with his Long Fangs packs), but also for Ministorum Priests. He runs two squads of Grey Hunters with Ministorum Priest and either a Rune Priest or a Primaris Psyker, both of them with Biomancy, hoping to get Endurance. If he gets Endurance (and he always gets it on at least one of them), and he's able to cast that and get the Priest's ability off, you're now looking at a squad with WS4, S4, T4, I4, plenty of attacks, Counter-Assault, 3+ armor (reroll fails), 4+ FNP, and Hatred (plus Relentless, because why not?).

I watch large mobs of Slugga Boyz just evaporate upon contact. And I'm the one charging! It is just so disheartening and crushing. Every time it happens, I just want to stop playing. It takes two turns for my army to be obliterated by his combination of shooting and two damn near unkillable units that shred my guys in the area my guys are supposed to be good.