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I'm coming round to that point of view, too. I used to worry about "pick up games" and "take all comers" lists. For a long time that was a barrier to entering historicals- I couldn't figure how I was supposed to be able to build a force I was interested in and have any likelyhood of finding another person playing that period and that scale in my area, especially given I now live somewhere where I'm only passably fluent in the language. But now I see it in terms of projects, where I collect both sides of a conflict and can therefore "host" games. It is very liberating. And it means I don't have to worry about any conventions of scale of battle or number of miniatures needed or whatever. I just buy what I like, get it ready, and relax.

I can see how FOW would be attractive to people who want that pick-up-game, TAC experience in a historical setting though. I like both styles, but I think on the whole historicals definitely lean more towards "projects" than "armies".

The "project" basis is less suitable for those who want competitive game play. Like going to tournaments. That's not for me though.

I've also come to realize that the majority of my hobby time is spent painting miniatures rather than gaming. I probably game about half as many hours in a given month as I spend painting. So it's important to me to be working on projects that interest me rather than painting something because it's a powerful selection in an army list.

 Vertrucio wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

.... It is very much a young modern and dare I say naive thing to think that because you buy 40K figures you must buy GW rules, or vice versa.

Flames or War tapped into this naivety and made 15mm an important scale for WW2 but it didn't use to be.

It's also a very old thing to be a condescending grognard.

Flames of War tapped into the desire for a game that was solidly made with less confusion about what you needed to buy to play a game.

And I dare say that, considering the large number of successful alternative miniature and bits companies that produce not-40k stuff, I think people get the idea of using miniatures not tied to the rules.

Instead, people are tied to the setting of the miniature game they enjoy playing. In the case of historicals, which are also a fantasy no matter how much you want to protest, your setting is that view of an older time in human history. In the case of 40k, or anyone else who plays a game with a setting, they buy 40k miniatures because those miniatures most closely match that setting, and lately people are buying plenty of miniatures from other manufacturers that also match the setting.

And do you know why those games do so well despite how grumpy it makes some grognards? It's because a strong setting is appealing, the same is said for a strong and well defined army. It doesn't matter if that's the US Army circa 1944-45, or Ultramarines circa 41,000.

Sorry to derail the thread, but I'm getting really tired this kind of grumpy old argument about miniatures and how they are purchased, especially when people who should know better start belittling others.

And back on the topic, well slightly off. I was actually seriously considering making a 1/72 scale scifi game because I think that 1/72, regardless of setting, is a good tabletop scale that allows for good looking minis that aren't too small to see interesting detail on the miniatures, but also aren't too big that it limits how much maneuvering you can do on the table.

It's also a very old thing to be use ad hominem arguments.

Given the very wide availability of WW2 models in 1/300 or 6mm, and 1/72 or 20mm scale, why did Flames of War need to introduce the previously almost unknown for WW2 15mm scale? It offers no appreciable advantage to players over either of the well established scales.

The FoW rules are pretty similar in various mechanisms to the 40K and WHFB rules. There were lots of good WW2 rules for other scales (6mm, 20mm etc) already available.

Of course to draw the conclusion that the rules were made to appeal to a naive audience drawn in by GW, and to exploit them by offering the "official" models, is merely cynical grognardary.

It's funny that you go to the ad hominem defense when the post I'm calling you on is the first to go to ad hominem attacks on people.

You get my point right?

Just because you don't like that a scale exists or was made prevalent doesn't mean it's inferior. That's because when whatever scale you play at hit the market, it was probably seen as unneeded or unwanted at the time.

Considering that people play historicals of many scales about many different time periods, it doesn't matter if X scale was already available. There was a market for 15mm at the time and they just happened to hit upon it.

It was also useful to Battlefront as a means of segmenting the market. it insulated them from competition until other companies got geared up. It wasn't done out of some recognition that there were people crying out for WW2 in 15mm scale. It was done entirely for commercial reasons.

Battlefront may basically be taking GW style rules and marketing and getting 40k players to try out historicals, but it's been super easy to recruit FoW players to try out other rules sets and other scales once they're open to historicals in general, so I don't begrudge them their success.

While 1/72 is a great scale for WW2, Zvezda's 1/100 scale tanks did eventually get me to switch to 15mm. I've since added the occasional battlefront kit like a stug and a t-70, but most of their stuff is packaged in too high of a quantity for me to be interested. I got my box of PSC germans and soviets and now I get specific figures in small packs from Peter Pig to flesh things out.

---

I recently became a big fan of 1/72 scale, mostly because there's a LOT of really cheap but still good plastic boxes from companies like Caesar and HaT. It's hard to argue with getting like 40 figures for $10!

I've only begun to look at it though, but with that kind of variety I can buy virtually whatever strikes my fancy on the off chance I might use it, because it's so cheap that it doesn't matter.

When caesar came out with their chariot era kits, I loaded up on Egyptians, Hittities and a few other nearby nations. I never got around to painting them because there were just too many. I ended up giving them away for the cost of shipping.

Since then I've been much better about not getting overzealous about just how many miniatures I can get for the money and just buy a kit or two, paint them, then get a couple more, paint them and so on.

I picked up the Zvezda Samurai Cavalry kit for £2.50 in a sale, to see what they are like.

The figures actually are rather good, but £1.25 per mounted figure is not cheap IMO, not if you are considering 1/72 as a replacement for 15mm metal armies. For example, Essex Miniatures samurai cavalry are £3.30 for four.

To be fair, the detail is better on the 1/72.

I LOVE 1/72...another big plus is it is safe for kids since it is soft and bendy...I wanted to get my nephews into warhammer/historicals, but the thought of all those hard plastic pointy spears...no thanks. I am now doing the armies of Middle Earth using 1/7 ancients...lots of fun.

Zvezda's Art of Tactic series isn't priced the same way as their larger kits. For example:

http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/Review.aspx?id=685

17 cavalry for £7 or so.

Their smaller kits though, offer them some serious business advantages like getting impulse buys and using small mould footprints to reduce capital needed per kit, number of units per case to reduce shipping costs and a host of other reasons that have caused them to abandon making the larger kits they used to make.

HaT, Caesar, Emhar and many others still make the larger kits and Zvezda does still produce some of their old product line for distributors.

I just started a 1/72 napoleonic french army. Got 1000+ mini's from a buddy for 150 USD. 13 cents a figure and I can't beat that.

Was it really necessary to bring back a thread that people lost interest in 14 month ago just to say that?

Better to reignight discussion about a wonderful modelling scale then create another topic all over again.

lord marcus wrote:Better to reignight discussion about a wonderful modelling scale then create another topic all over again.

I've felt a bit envious of 20mms and 1/72s for a while: fantastic price, mostly good proportions, better scale for bigger battles (IMO), sheer variety of kits and periods catered to.

The thing holding me back is that I absolutely hate bendy pvc plastic. Bendy weapons and immovable flash and mould lines, specifically. (I never seem to get that mythical pack with no flash, and even using a sharp new knife it's a pain carving the stuff out, compared to scraping HIPS... which is not my favourite activity itself) Used to be that I'd buy a box on impulse or to check out for some project I had in mind, realise I couldn't stand the material, wait a few months, decide I was being silly, buy another box, and realise I couldn't stand it all over again. I have a few boxes of Zvezda's beautiful older samurai minis here, but I can barely even pick them up without feeling a bit depressed.

Good thing some companies are moving to polystyrene, IMO. At the mo I'm thinking of getting back into WWII and 1/72 is a strong contender, especially since that's what I'd just started collecting - the favoured scale at a nearby club. But I don't thank Battlefront for trying to corner the market in an 'odd' scale, 'cos 15mm FoW is the scale at another club further up the road.

But this is where I agree with the project approach to gaming - especially with the different theatres and periods within WWII itself - and where the relative cheapness of plastic minis helps. The nearest club is mostly interested in the eastern front, mid-late war, while I'm interested in North Africa too. No harm in getting a small 1/72 force for the former, and go with my initial idea of GHQ 6mm for the latter. Maybe even a few 15mm for some other theatre too, on the offchance.

Kilkrazy wrote:I picked up the Zvezda Samurai Cavalry kit for £2.50 in a sale, to see what they are like.

The figures actually are rather good, but £1.25 per mounted figure is not cheap IMO, not if you are considering 1/72 as a replacement for 15mm metal armies. For example, Essex Miniatures samurai cavalry are £3.30 for four.

To be fair, the detail is better on the 1/72.

Yup. About or almost the same as some plastic 28mms. But I agree that they're so purdy it can be worth it.

I only game WW2 in 20mm or 1/72 as ye call it...

Don't use plastic figures though. All mine are metals.

I love 1/72 scale - it's where I began with modelling, and it's been great to see the proliferation of kits in this scale over recent years. I wish they'd all been available when I started (then it was just Airfix, Matchbox, Fujimi and Nitto).

After a short stint with 15mm, I've moved onto 28mm, principally because I find the larger size easier to work with and the larger models satisfying. I only did this when Warlord started producing plastic kits in this scale. I also find the 28mm plastic multi-part figures more enjoyable to work with than smaller scale figures. If anyone wants a pile of PSC 15mm plastic kits then let me know!

Selling off some projects and reinvesting in 1/72. Can get so much more for your buck.
A ton of stuff for ancients so I'm jumping in. Always wanted Hellenistic era forces with all those phalanx pikes
Elephants and chariots! Looks like I'll be busy into retirement...

 jedi76 wrote:
Always wanted Hellenistic era forces with all those phalanx pikes

The thought of that in bendy plastic gives me the willies! Or are you going with metals?

Sold off 28mm for Napoleonics and WW2. So much cheaper and easier to do 1/72.

Not all of them is bendy plastic, it all depends. But it has yet to be a problem for me.

The bendy plastic is more of a problem in the older kits. New ones like Ceasar are fine. It is best however, to prime with a Plastic Primer...I use Krylon Plastic Fusion and it works great. I think the scale works best with massed ranks. Check out this thread where I mix historical 1/72s with 28mm fantasy to recreate the armies of Middle Earth

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/633915.page

Apparently they don't even try to put long pikes with these phalangites. I'm going to use either brass rod or maybe some evergreen plastic rod that I can shape spearheads on easily. Currently searching for an elusive can of plastic primer in my town

The bristles from plastic brooms or brushes are favoured by some wargamers.

1/72 is a neat scale, and seems to be most cost efficient. I am doing 15 just for the smaller scale, but still suitable for 1:1 gaming that gets a bit tough with anything smaller.

I still have my painted 1/72s though.