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Andram wrote:
To fire you have to select a target.

To fire the death ray, nominate a point on the battlefield anywhere within the weapons range.

This isn't rocket science, guys.

Andram wrote:
I definitely see Leth's point. To fire you have to select a target. So just pick some other random target and then fire the death ray wherever you want.

And then you break the rule for the Death Ray, if you try to shoot any other weapons, as they must target one of the units hit by the Death Ray.

This is pretty simple, and Leth is correct.

Its a similar thing that happens to tau with target locks. The tau must still have a unit that it has declared the target. Then any drones or suits without target locks must shoot the declared target. And suits with locks can shoot at anything else they want. But it doesn't change that the unit had to declare a target.

Except for the weapon's rules explicitely stating how it works.

But alas, this might be a classic "BRB overrides Codex" case.

...wait.

Firing the death ray is explicitly after you select a target for the unit. The shooting steps are clear on this. Yes, when you want to fire the death ray, this uses it's own rules, however to get to that point you must select a target. This I NOT overridden by the death ray

nos, the problem then arises if you wish to fire other weapons.

Let's say you nominate Guardian unit A as your target.

You fire the Death Ray according to its entry and hit Striking Scorpion Unit B, Fire Dragon unit C, and Guardian unit D.

You want to fire the other weapons. You cannot go back and declare a new target, nor can you target your original target.

 Happyjew wrote:
nos, the problem then arises if you wish to fire other weapons.

Let's say you nominate Guardian unit A as your target.

You fire the Death Ray according to its entry and hit Striking Scorpion Unit B, Fire Dragon unit C, and Guardian unit D.

You want to fire the other weapons. You cannot go back and declare a new target, nor can you target your original target.

Then if you want to fire your other weapons, I guess you better shoot the ray at the target you selected huh?

Except that is not always possible.

With a variable length you can hit anything from 4" to 48" away. If the unit you want to shoot is 20" away, and you end up rolling 6", you're not going to hit that unit.

Sucks doesnt it?

Looks like you might have to take risks to get around jink.

Ummm you do select a target with death. Any point on the battle field. That is where the hit starts.

That point on the battle field is your target. That is why it has to be with in the weapons range.

"To fire the death ray, nominate a point on
the battlefield anywhere within the weapon's range"

I think I pointed out clearly the BRB lines that show that Witchfire attacks are not in fact Shooting attacks despite the very line that says so in the BRB.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Firing the death ray is explicitly after you select a target for the unit. The shooting steps are clear on this. Yes, when you want to fire the death ray, this uses it's own rules, however to get to that point you must select a target. This I NOT overridden by the death ray

It is, as laid out in the codex itself. It explicitely tells you how to fire the weapon and explicitely states when the rules take place - before choosing a target: "To fire the focussed death ray[...][". Clear point. Referring to the general shooting rules is grasping for straws and basically saying "Yeah, well, it doesn't work after step 2, but it totally works before!". The Death Ray is a special weapon that uses different shooting rules. Therefore, GW gladly described exactly how to fire the weapons in the codex / book.

You select the unit to shoot, you select a target (a point on the battlefield), roll 3d6 and choose another target (point) within that range. Everything under the line gets hit automatically.

So, given you provided no rules to contradict the rule book there, please concede.

You're not following the rule book. At all. By the time you are told you can fire the death ray - that would be a weapon - you have to gp have selected a target, as the brb tells you.

Please explain, using pages and para, where this rule is bypassed. I understand if states "to fire the death ray..." My point, which you have not refuted, us that this has to occur after step 2

nos would you agree then that you can only fire either the Death Ray, or the other weapons, but not both?

1. Pick Target

2. Fire Death Ray (at any place you want)

3. Fire additional weapons at target in #1 if your said target was under the Death Ray line.

What is so hard about this?

text removed.


Reds8n

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So, given you provided no rules to contradict the rule book there, please concede.

You're not following the rule book. At all. By the time you are told you can fire the death ray - that would be a weapon - you have to gp have selected a target, as the brb tells you.

Please explain, using pages and para, where this rule is bypassed. I understand if states "to fire the death ray..." My point, which you have not refuted, us that this has to occur after step 2

Nos, if you want to talk about a topic, please either read the relevant rules or drop out of the discussion for everyone's sake. p. 123 tells you exactly how to fire the weapon and ignores what is said in the BRB.

Alternatively, we can agree on the game suddenly stopping altogether because if the following stages in the BRB not being fulfilled by the Death Ray. What do you do if you follow that order you suggested? Now, you use the Death Ray rules? Why? No explicit allowance is given. So basically, you just stop to play as soon as you fire it. That sounds reasonable

chanceafs wrote:
1. Pick Target

2. Fire Death Ray (at any place you want)

3. Fire additional weapons at target in #1 if your said target was under the Death Ray line.

What is so hard about this?

#3 is wrong. In order to fire the other weapons, you must nominate a unit hit by the Death Ray, which you cannot do until after you fire the Death Ray.

What about the Death Ray rules tell you to ignore all of the shooting sequence?

If you follow the Shooting Sequence, you must:

1. Nominate the unit that is shooting. In this case, you are picking the unit with the Death Ray.
2. Choose a target.
3. Select a weapon. In this case, it's obviously the Death ray.
4. Resolve the weapon's effects.
5. Select another weapon, and so on.

The Death Ray's rules tell you how to resolve its effects, and it's true that your line can go anywhere on the battlefield (subject to the rest of the Death Ray's rules, obviously), so doesn't have to hit the nominated target. But in order to select the Death Ray as a weapon to shoot with, you must have already selected a target.

Am I missing another line of rules for the Death Ray that tells you to ignore the entire shooting sequence?

Three quotes for psychic shooting attacks. Not totally relevant when discussing the necron death ray.

Again. Shooting phase. What is step two? Declare a target. For the UNIT. Then you get to fire with each weapon. Oddly enough this is where the specific rules for the death ray kick in. Now, given you cannot point to SHOOTING PHASE proof, you should concede. Your post wasn't relevant and violated rule one.

Sig - so you don't think the brb requirement for you to then fire all like weapons means you have to read the line "how to fire a deathray"? Odd, as I think it gives you direct permission to do so.

Happy - as long as you fire the death ray first, it generates a set of targets. The deat,h ray rules then give you permission for the other weapons to target anything hit by the death ray, and you STILL have permission to hit the initially declared target, as long as it was also one touched by the deathray

Really not seeing any issue there. Yes, it's variable range, so you can take a risk or play it safe.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Blast weapons don't roll To Hit rolls, do they? So you could never Jink one anyway, if we're going strict RAW?

The trigger for declaring Jink is being nominated as a target, with the choice being made before To Hit rolls are resolved.

Since Blast weapons still declare a target, you get to Jink.

If you go the interpretation that you can choose to Jink at any time in between the target declaration and the To Hit roll, this would arguably mean that you could choose to Jink at any point in the game after having been declared as a target of a Blast.

nosferatu1001 wrote:


Sig - so you don't think the brb requirement for you to then fire all like weapons means you have to read the line "how to fire a deathray"? Odd, as I think it gives you direct permission to do so.

I am glad to hear that you concede your point and the issue's settled.

 Sigvatr wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:


Sig - so you don't think the brb requirement for you to then fire all like weapons means you have to read the line "how to fire a deathray"? Odd, as I think it gives you direct permission to do so.

I am glad to hear that you concede your point and the issue's settled.

Wow. Way to quote out of context.

Page 30, under choose a target, first sentence

Find a quote to override that. Note the UNIT wording there. Until you can do so you are breaking the tenets of this forum.

When you cannot find this quote, as the death ray rules only concern the death ray weapon, and not the unit, you can gracefully concede. Of, as you told me to do earlier, drop out of the thread altogether, as you HAVENT read the rules.

 Sigvatr wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:


Sig - so you don't think the brb requirement for you to then fire all like weapons means you have to read the line "how to fire a deathray"? Odd, as I think it gives you direct permission to do so.

I... ...concede your point and the issue's settled.

Look, I can take partial posts out of context too.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:


Sig - so you don't think the brb requirement for you to then fire all like weapons means you have to read the line "how to fire a deathray"? Odd, as I think it gives you direct permission to do so.

I... ...concede your point and the issue's settled.

Look, I can take partial posts out of context too.

-Matt

lol! I just choked on my cookie!

Just faced someone who thought the death ray had 360 LOS..... I basically just forfeited the game against the guy because I was just too tired of arguing rules against him.

Also he took a transcendent C'Tan which was just not fun to play against. Thank god for thunderfire cannons.

Same with the death ray, he thought you didnt need to declare a target with it....sigh

I would say it's pretty clear, actually. Okies, you have to declare a target to fire at. You do so, unit a. Then, you choose death ray, and proceed with death rays special rules. You hit unit b, and c. Now, you complete the special rules for death ray, and declare a target from b or c, for the destructors, and continue through the shooting phase as normal. I'll be honest, I believe rai you ignore targeting completely in order to fire the death ray, and you should realize that the codex was released at the end of fifth, and I'm not sure how specific the rules were written as for how the steps were explicitly spelled out, but people have been playing it that way for quite some time. I know I have been. Raw, however, I believe play as above.

If the unit is targeted at any point in all of that, you can choose to jink. If not, then not. Personally, I will discuss with my friends to figure out how we will rule it, but raw you only jink if targeted. So not for random scatters, and not for non targeted psychic powers.

death ray doesnt declare a target, you acctually do ignore normal shooting order for it.

Its an old codex and thus does not conform to 7th.

Eihnlazer wrote:
death ray doesnt declare a target, you acctually do ignore normal shooting order for it.

Its an old codex and thus does not conform to 7th.

The unit, however, does. As per the brb.

Eihnlazer wrote:
death ray doesnt declare a target, you acctually do ignore normal shooting order for it.

Its an old codex and thus does not conform to 7th.

So what about the Death Ray's rules allow you to ignore all of the Shooting Sequence?

You do not have permission to select a weapon to shoot with outside of this sequence.