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PapaSoul wrote:
I thought Orks were tuff? I've never seen so much crying in the wake of a new codex.

You took up the hobby last month, I take it?

 Zagy wrote:

Dragonzord wrote:
thats right, it doesnt say at all 'one per character'... how odd. I reckon that'll be FAQ'd out.

Let's hope not.

unfortunatly in the wargear list it says "a model may take one of the following" under the line saying only one of each in the army.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

PapaSoul wrote:
I thought Orks were tuff? I've never seen so much crying in the wake of a new codex.

You took up the hobby last month, I take it?

Funny man. I've been playing since 2nd son.

Skullhammer wrote:

 Zagy wrote:

Dragonzord wrote:
thats right, it doesnt say at all 'one per character'... how odd. I reckon that'll be FAQ'd out.

Let's hope not.

unfortunatly in the wargear list it says "a model may take one of the following" under the line saying only one of each in the army.

Which doesn't necessarily mean anything except "You can only take this item once"...

 Dakkamite wrote:
Guys, guys. I think its time to stop the complaining and accept that this book is actually fantastic, and you just don't know it yet.

I mean, thats what the internet says will happen, so it must be true. Right?

Obviously we should just agree with what you say instead of agree with other internet people say.

It's funny how the guys saying "stop complaining, it doesn't do any good." are the ones also saying "the looted wagon was added as DLC because of customer outrage."

Which is it? Does GW listen to complaints or not?



They don't, BTW, but that doesn't mean you should stop.

 MWHistorian wrote:

Which is it? Does GW listen to complaints or not?

I'm sure a lot of Nid players would like to know how their complaining wasn't good enough to get the spore pod back.

Melevolence wrote:

This is the issue. Army wide rerolls should not be the standard. Us getting an army wide 5+ FNP or even a 6+ FNP wouldn't do much to solve our problems anyway. And it would have only caused EVERYTHING to go up in price points wise. You can bet your bottom dollar on that. I don't feel like spending 10 points or more per Boy BEFORE upgrades.

Trust me, you definitely want more expensive, more durable boyz. If you gave all orks FNP 5+, and an appropriate point increase, you can then field less boyz but have the same amount of staying power. This would make your army more maneuverable (you wont clog up the board) and less vulnerable to anti hoard weapons, like the wyvern.

I mean really, has anyone ever had a fun game with a 100+ boyz on the table, trying to move them across the board, and having to deal with placing models in and around terrain pieces?

PapaSoul wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

PapaSoul wrote:
I thought Orks were tuff? I've never seen so much crying in the wake of a new codex.

You took up the hobby last month, I take it?

Funny man. I've been playing since 2nd son.

Everyone complained even back then, but usually about other people's armies, not their own. I distinctly remember that Eldar players started bucking that trend in 3rd.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

PapaSoul wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

PapaSoul wrote:
I thought Orks were tuff? I've never seen so much crying in the wake of a new codex.

You took up the hobby last month, I take it?

Funny man. I've been playing since 2nd son.

Everyone complained even back then, but usually about other people's armies, not their own. I distinctly remember that Eldar players started bucking that trend in 3rd.

I've been with 40k since the beginning and I've never seen such widespread negativity before. Also, I've never seen GW deserve it this much before.

GorillaWarfare wrote:

I mean really, has anyone ever had a fun game with a 100+ boyz on the table, trying to move them across the board, and having to deal with placing models in and around terrain pieces?

Yes.

Too many pages to read them all, sorry fellas, but I'll reply on the first post and some of the stuff I read.

The layout has some advantages. While it's not as easy to flip through when writing a list (I haven't had much of a problem, but then, I've also gotten used to writing lists with GW books on a Kindle), it's a lot easier to reference a unit's rules in-game. The photos in place of artwork make sure that newer players (even just new to the army) can figure out what each unit is supposed to be, no guesswork involved.

There's still a decent amount of background, and I've enjoyed reading some of the stories of various Ork hijinks (like hijacking a Titan, always good for a laugh). More would be nice, but I'm worried they'd try to make new background and give them the Necron treatment.

As for the rules... They're not that bad. It'll take some getting used to, sure. You can't just throw a wave of Boyz out there and expect them to stick around just because there's a lot of them. I would prefer not to risk losing more Boyz to infighting, but heck, if I lose one or two while the rest of the unit sticks around and doesn't Fall Back, I'll take that. Some of the units don't seem that great, but when you combine them with other units they're a lot better. It's going to take some effort to figure out all the combinations and how to make them work.

I understand some of the random factor being gone. They've slowly been edging 40K back toward 2nd edition in terms of complexity, which is already slowing down games. In the local GW store we've been asked to keep it to 1500 points or less. Imagine if that was the new default, suddenly they're selling fewer models! So they have to speed up the game somewhere. If that means no chart to see what random event happens to a Trukk after you just rolled a random event chart, that's what they'll do. I miss the old Madboyz with 20 pages of rules, but I understand they wouldn't work in the game these days like that (in 3rd edition, they were reduced to a single D6 chart and Fearless).

Maybe it's just that I've waited so long for a new book for my favorite army, but I'm excited to try them out on the field. I've been pulling out Ork models to assemble and prime and paint the last two or three weeks, making additions to my Waagh!, and often just plowing through multiple painting sessions with small breaks in the evenings so I can get more of them done and more options for the table. I am freaking giddy to see these guys on the field. I'm not letting the nay-sayers bug me. I believe in my Orks.

Oh, and as for the Stompa's inclusion, that and Ghaz being a Lord of War were both basically to nudge people further toward allowing them more often. We all knew it was coming when Escalation heralded that shift in order to move large models. In the case of Orks, in larger games especially, the Stompa tends to bring a lot of much-needed bonuses to the army (anti-tank fire, anti-Marine fire, swift anti-tank CC, protects up to 20 guys inside, projects a Fearless bubble around it).

But nah, tell me you won't let me use a Stompa from my codex, I'll just use my Knight as a CTA ally. Sure I have to deploy him 12" away to start the game, but he's fast enough to get in and wreck face.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MWHistorian wrote:
I've been with 40k since the beginning and I've never seen such widespread negativity before. Also, I've never seen GW deserve it this much before.

That. Spot-on. It's worse than ever, but it's deserved. The company is making it more and more obvious that they're only doing rules to sell models, and they'll fundamentally shift the game in order to sell more expensive models. It's going to get to a point where we have "armies" of just half-dozen models that cost $130-$150 each.

Oh, wait...

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Codex-Imperial-Knights-English

There's many things in the new book I can live with. Over crowded heavy slot, point changes, mob rule changes. But the only thing that ruins it all for me is the loss of our invulnerable saves. Sure, FnP is nice and all, but It usually doesn't do much for me. Usually I would run my warboss into challenges to kick some butt, but with the rise in psykers and force weapons, I'm a little hesitant to even let him leave his battle wagon.

I can imagine the Ork Warboss not in Mega Armour getting stomped by most of my opponents HQ's, besides maybe Imperial Guard.


Either he takes the PowerKlaw, hits last, and gets killed by a force weapon or maybe just a Captain with power maul.

Or he takes the Special Choppa, doesn't roll a 6, and gets killed again...

I dunno i just thought a Warboss would be tougher.

 MWHistorian wrote:
It's funny how the guys saying "stop complaining, it doesn't do any good." are the ones also saying "the looted wagon was added as DLC because of customer outrage."

Which is it? Does GW listen to complaints or not?



They don't, BTW, but that doesn't mean you should stop.

They are also the bunch saying you can't determine if a unit is bad by just reading, you have to play it. But in the next breath say a unit is good, just by reading.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
It's funny how the guys saying "stop complaining, it doesn't do any good." are the ones also saying "the looted wagon was added as DLC because of customer outrage."

Which is it? Does GW listen to complaints or not?



They don't, BTW, but that doesn't mean you should stop.

They are also the bunch saying you can't determine if a unit is bad by just reading, you have to play it. But in the next breath say a unit is good, just by reading.

My favorite is:
"That unit isn't bad, you should try it out first."
"I have. I've played several games and I just can't justify it anymore. They are bad."
"You must not have been using them right. They're great."

Dragonzord wrote:
thats right, it doesnt say at all 'one per character'... how odd. I reckon that'll be FAQ'd out.

Reading the digital version of the Codex and right above the Relics list, it says: "A model can take one of the following:". Whereas with the regular gear lists, the wording says: "A model can take up to one of each of the following:". It seems it's specifically worded so that each HQ model can only take one Relic.

I'm VERY interested in running a Green Tide formation from the Ghaz supplement, but I don't have the book yet. Are relics from the two books mix-and-match? That is to say, could I use the Green Tide formation, give the Warboss of that unit the Lucky Stikk for rerolls on the various challenges he's required to take/make, and give a Big Mek taken from the FOC in the main book the Big Bosspole relic from Ghaz then join the Green Tide?

I can sum up my opinion by looking at one unit... MegaNobz.

Space Marine Terminators w/ Powerfists cost the same points as MANz with the following differences:
* +2 BS
*-1 W
*+1 I
*-1 A
*+2 Ld
*5++
*deepstrike
*and they shall know no fear
*Chaper tactics

In a bubble Terminators can instant kill Meganobz, with no saves of any kind available for MANz. On the flipside, Meganobz MIGHT have a chance of killing terminators because they have one more attack, and if the terminator fail their 5++.
Real world cost, Meganobz aren't going anywhere without a transport, whereas terminators can just deepstrike. This isn't even a fair comparison since there is going to be extra points spent by the ork player to deliver MANz.
So the winner here is clearly Terminators, if by no other reason, their true cost is much less.


Chaos Terminators w/ Powerfists. Almost exactly the same stats, and outcome as above with two major differences:

1) Chaos Terminators are cheaper than MegaNobz (38.4 points per vs 40).
2) Chaos Terminators can take anti MegaNob gear
*Mark of Tzeentch (4++)
*Combi-Melta

I played a mass MegaNob list, where my opponent deepstrike’d in his Chaos Terminators that melta fired one unit of MegaNobz to death, and CC'd another unit to death. And the point cost for this unit was cheaper than just 1 of those MegaNobz units w/ BW.

This would be all fine if we were talking about the old book, but we’re talking about a new book that just came out, AFTER both the Space Marines book, and the Chaos Space Marines book.

 Multimoog wrote:

Dragonzord wrote:
thats right, it doesnt say at all 'one per character'... how odd. I reckon that'll be FAQ'd out.

Reading the digital version of the Codex and right above the Relics list, it says: "A model can take one of the following:". Whereas with the regular gear lists, the wording says: "A model can take up to one of each of the following:". It seems it's specifically worded so that each HQ model can only take one Relic.

I'm VERY interested in running a Green Tide formation from the Ghaz supplement, but I don't have the book yet. Are relics from the two books mix-and-match? That is to say, could I use the Green Tide formation, give the Warboss of that unit the Lucky Stikk for rerolls on the various challenges he's required to take/make, and give a Big Mek taken from the FOC in the main book the Big Bosspole relic from Ghaz then join the Green Tide?

The Warboss can only take stuff from the Ghaz book. It specifically says any unit in a detachment or formation chosen from that supplement can only take the relics listed in it and can't choose from the Gifts of Gork and Mork. So the Warboss can't have the Lucky Stikk, even though it's Ghazghkull's old banner pole.

And now that I've typed that out, my brain hurts.

 ErikSetzer wrote:

 Multimoog wrote:

Dragonzord wrote:
thats right, it doesnt say at all 'one per character'... how odd. I reckon that'll be FAQ'd out.

Reading the digital version of the Codex and right above the Relics list, it says: "A model can take one of the following:". Whereas with the regular gear lists, the wording says: "A model can take up to one of each of the following:". It seems it's specifically worded so that each HQ model can only take one Relic.

I'm VERY interested in running a Green Tide formation from the Ghaz supplement, but I don't have the book yet. Are relics from the two books mix-and-match? That is to say, could I use the Green Tide formation, give the Warboss of that unit the Lucky Stikk for rerolls on the various challenges he's required to take/make, and give a Big Mek taken from the FOC in the main book the Big Bosspole relic from Ghaz then join the Green Tide?

The Warboss can only take stuff from the Ghaz book. It specifically says any unit in a detachment or formation chosen from that supplement can only take the relics listed in it and can't choose from the Gifts of Gork and Mork. So the Warboss can't have the Lucky Stikk, even though it's Ghazghkull's old banner pole.

And now that I've typed that out, my brain hurts.

I was afraid of that. This makes the Green Tide warboss much less survivable, unless I make him a MAW at the expense of unit mobility. Thinking it might be a good idea to take the points saved on buying relics and take a couple of Little Meks to accept and make challenges.

 Multimoog wrote:

 ErikSetzer wrote:

 Multimoog wrote:

Dragonzord wrote:
thats right, it doesnt say at all 'one per character'... how odd. I reckon that'll be FAQ'd out.

Reading the digital version of the Codex and right above the Relics list, it says: "A model can take one of the following:". Whereas with the regular gear lists, the wording says: "A model can take up to one of each of the following:". It seems it's specifically worded so that each HQ model can only take one Relic.

I'm VERY interested in running a Green Tide formation from the Ghaz supplement, but I don't have the book yet. Are relics from the two books mix-and-match? That is to say, could I use the Green Tide formation, give the Warboss of that unit the Lucky Stikk for rerolls on the various challenges he's required to take/make, and give a Big Mek taken from the FOC in the main book the Big Bosspole relic from Ghaz then join the Green Tide?

The Warboss can only take stuff from the Ghaz book. It specifically says any unit in a detachment or formation chosen from that supplement can only take the relics listed in it and can't choose from the Gifts of Gork and Mork. So the Warboss can't have the Lucky Stikk, even though it's Ghazghkull's old banner pole.

And now that I've typed that out, my brain hurts.

I was afraid of that. This makes the Green Tide warboss much less survivable, unless I make him a MAW at the expense of unit mobility. Thinking it might be a good idea to take the points saved on buying relics and take a couple of Little Meks to accept and make challenges.

Taking him in mega armor wouldnt be a good idea since you cant run. I would just give the warboss da big bosspole and add another from a CAD of Codex orks with the lukky stikk.

I'm new, but I don't see that many major changes. Most of them seem minor.

Pros:
Ere We Go!!! Is Awesome
Hammer of Wrath hasn't happened for me yet.
Painboy is an Independent character. Not sure if he is worth 50pts, but he is cheaper than armor.
Weirdboy/Warphead is more reliable and might get to cast 2 spells per turn.
Some of the Gifts are awesome: Shiny Shoota and Lucky Stick (not sure if it is a BP or not).
Tanksbustas are cheaper, got Tank Hunter, Tank Bombs, can choose their target and got a Trukk.
Lootas are cheaper, and are HS were they belong Heavy Weapon.
The new Artllery is cheap and looks Dead Killy.
Storm Boyz can go to 30.
Flash Gitz guns are better and they are cheaper, but they did lose their armor.
Rokkits are cheaper all over the place.
The Bomber bomb is better.
Bikkers are cheaper, but lost their cover save.

Cons:
Attack Squig isn't +1A, but I tend to miss one anyway. Would have been even better with Da Lucky Stick.
Trukks lost Ramshackle.
No longer fearless, but d6 S4 Attacks should only mean 1 or 2 wounds. Still sucks though.
KFF has a shorter range, but is ++.
Planes don't double shots on WAAAGH!
+1 for Bolters is lame. Especially since you have to pay it for everyone to include special weapon guys and the Nob which is free on the Range list.
Burnas slightly up in cost.
Warlord 6 is plus 1S, but all Warbosses should have Klaws.
Head Bang has to roll to hit. On the other hand it doesn't blow up my head.

There are probably others, but I am doing this from memory on a smart phone.

Over all I am more pleased than displeased.

Dragonzord wrote:

Thats like complaining about michael bay making bad transformers movies and that he shouldnt make more. These things make too much money for them to go 'nope'

They're a business, what do you really expect? They're not your best friends or family, they are here for your money.

And people wonder why I have a problem with a private healthcare system. :-)

 MagicMan wrote:
I can imagine the Ork Warboss not in Mega Armour getting stomped by most of my opponents HQ's, besides maybe Imperial Guard.


Either he takes the PowerKlaw, hits last, and gets killed by a force weapon or maybe just a Captain with power maul.

Or he takes the Special Choppa, doesn't roll a 6, and gets killed again...

I dunno i just thought a Warboss would be tougher.

Yeah, I honestly feel like they should've made the Warboss among the best CC models in the game. He damn well deserves it. But at this point, I'm not really scared of him.

 easysauce wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

 slowthar wrote:


3) With said group try a non-GW game.

Nobody likes a quitter.

Plus people still love 40k, they just hate GW and that relationship was going fine until GW started shoving its way into the core mechanics to try and sleeze out some more money. Now we have a bunch of dreadfleet-esq random gak smeared all over the game, and the only way to make it work is take it away from GW.

well, to be fair, GW might have to do less profit "squeesing" if they were not getting jackhammered by people D/L pdfs of the rules for free, and getting re casts .

just look at HMV and blockbuster to see what happens to companies when everyone just starts getting their products for free, or from forgers.

This is false, those things got driven out of business because they used business models that were out of date and sold product no one bought anymore.

What to see two companies that are doing really well, look at Netflix and Steam. All digital, stream and direct download. Netflix is competitively priced and offers a great, easy to use low cost product.
Steam does the same, that may (WILL) change when steam becomes the only game company selling online. If GOG, Games for Windows live, Origin ect go out of business then steam WILL jack up their prices because they're the only ones left.

I haven't bought music, tv shows or music since Pandora and netflix but people still do those things (I don't pirate either btws)
I haven't pirated games since I got steam, because they sell a good product at a cheap price.

What GW thinks they are is a monopoly. Does ANYONE like Comcast? They're terrible but they can be because they're the only option. GW thinks they're this and keeps pushing itself like this. It doesn't realize they're not the only boyz in town any more. Or they do realize that and a panicking and going about it the totally wrong way. I haven't purchased a GW model in 4 years. I would, if they were cheaper, I won't now.

TL;DR anyway, the ork codex feels very un-orky, very spartan and lazy. If they do release Supplements that reinstate all their lost options then GW will have taken that train to micro transaction hell.

There's no reason that a new codex should lack 3/4ths of the options the old codex had.

I've got another Ghaz supplement question. In the rule that states you must take and issue challenges, it specifically states that your Warlord has to do it. Is there anything that says a Warboss included in a Ghaz formation HAS to be your Warlord? If I take a Green Tide, the Warboss included in the unit doesn't have to be my army's Warlord?

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 Celtic Strike wrote:
Codex: Orks is pretty Naff. It invalidates 3/4ths of the builds people had and is stuffed with filler and recycled material.

It is a naked cash grab... feels like it was purposefully gutted to make room for supplements
Orks seems like a deliberate, evil, purposeful evisceration of a once proud and very, very fun codex just to make money.

OK....

(BTW's I don't play Orks, I'm just a fan o f them)

Ah yes. The internetz. The place where people get angry about something they haven't even read..

We're still looking and thinking about how the new codex affects us; we've lost our biker nobz, but with the huge benefit of being able to field a stompa, when we're up against the super-competitive types. In the meantime, we'll ignore uninformed comments like the one above.

Funny, too, all these people whining about how their loota wagons got stolen in an exploitative cashgrab, but no-one's so angry they've taken me up on an offer of the PDF. Seriously, any time, if it helps salve those wounds,you're welcome.

I used to play orks, back in second and third edition but sold them all to a friend who was starting the game.

I also have read it, cover to cover. It wasn't hard to do. There's only 90 words in the whole codex. The rest is filled with giant pictures.

Tell me, where are the bikes as Troops? Where are the Deff Dreads as Troops? Where are the Nobs (Not just nob bikers but regular nobs - I used to run nobs on foot btws) as Troops?

Also, good luck being able to actually find someone who will let you field a Stompa. Cos they won't. Also, most people don't have stompas. So, yay, they gave you something that's cool but costs hundreds of dollars to use and you'll have to use it because the rest of the codex is naff.

 Multimoog wrote:
I've got another Ghaz supplement question. In the rule that states you must take and issue challenges, it specifically states that your Warlord has to do it. Is there anything that says a Warboss included in a Ghaz formation HAS to be your Warlord? If I take a Green Tide, the Warboss included in the unit doesn't have to be my army's Warlord?

He dosent have to be your warlord, but if you want to waaagh every turn he has to be.

in 7th you don't pick your warlord from the HQs in a specific detachment.

You pick your Warlord, and your warlords detachment becomes your primary detachment.

Unless there is a rule stating "your warlord may not be from this detachment" or "this model must be your warlord if you take it in your army" you can make any HQ the warlord.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Then don't play the new dex either.

Done. It's not like GW forces you to buy it.

Wow! Thanks for that brilliant advice, except that I have *already* bought it since until buying it and reading it I don't know what impact that it will have on my army. Given that the usual new codex posts here are either going on how awesome it is or how completely useless it is and seldom offer any kind of clear insight that good old fashioned reading it for yourself gives you, I need to give it a read. Besides my *group* makes me use it, even if GW doesn't. New book comes out it replaces the old, end of story. Everyone else has had their day to get kicked in the nuts by a new codex and now it is the ork's turn. Only two more to go for our group: Dark Eldar and Space Wolves and after that won't have to buy anything else for us.

Skriker