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Hello everyone! Just throwing out a quick curiosity thread with a couple points:

1) Mechanicus orthodoxy says the Emperor and Omnissiah are one being. I believe this is wrong, and the higher ranks know this (citation: Titanicus ) but keep the doctrine as a necessary means to unify Mars and Terra. What do you think is true?

2) The Machine-God and Omnissiah are distinct. The Omnissiah is the avatar of the Machine-God, rather than being the whole of the Machine-God, much like the relationship between the Christian god and Jesus. What do you think?

Omnissiah is the Void Dragon. Machine Spirits exist.

'Tis my two cents.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Omnissiah is the Void Dragon. Machine Spirits exist.

'Tis my two cents.

Agreed.

Although I believe Machine Spirits are just AI.

 Sasori wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Omnissiah is the Void Dragon. Machine Spirits exist.

'Tis my two cents.

Agreed.

Although I believe Machine Spirits are just AI.

Well, yes and no. Either Machine Spirits are incredibly advanced AI, or they're mechanical souls or something like it. I'm pretty sure AI can't develop psyker abilities which was demonstrated by one Machine Spirit.

It's a tough question, but after reading Mechanicum there is definitely some kind of latent sentience involved with the Titans.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
It's a tough question, but after reading Mechanicum there is definitely some kind of latent sentience involved with the Titans.

Mechanicum was so great! Didn't the mechanicum unearth texts suggesting that the whole Emperor is the Omnisiah was fallacious but they buried it to prevent an Imperium-wide schism?
In my head head cannon, a lot of the arcane worshiping and anointing performed by the techpriests is just stuff from a manual written 20000 years ago that has surpassed instruction and become mythology/religion...Not discounting actual sentience/souls present in bigger, more complicated machinery, especially stuff that people neurally interface with.

I think it important to distinguish between what Machine Spirits are vs. what people believe.

The "Machine Spirits" of powerful machines like Titans may exist as a form of half-organic AI, imbuing the total machine with some ability to function semi-autonomously. The Machine Spirits of things like your toaster is a belief held by official dogma to exist, like animism where everything has a spirit, but to modern humans there is nothing there.

Iracundus wrote:
I think it important to distinguish between what Machine Spirits are vs. what people believe.

The "Machine Spirits" of powerful machines like Titans may exist as a form of half-organic AI, imbuing the total machine with some ability to function semi-autonomously. The Machine Spirits of things like your toaster is a belief held by official dogma to exist, like animism where everything has a spirit, but to modern humans there is nothing there.

Machine Spirits aren't some half sentient AI made from an organic computer- they're some strange combination of technology and the warp. IIRC the Machine Spirit from the novel Baneblade had precog, so something's definetly up with the warp and machine spirits. Plus ships and titans are sentient, hell ships are "sapient".

I always believed Machine Spirit is nonsense.

Big machines like Titans, space ships and Land Raiders have some sort of AI built into them. Absolutely nothing magical or other-worldy about it.

Anything simpler than that doesn't have a "machine spirit" (AI).

I am running on alcohol and no sleep, but here goes an idea:

What if there was some great machine-intelligence on mars, some massive central 'server' as it were for the Iron Men and the ancillary AIs that pervaded human space during the Dark Age of Technology.

After this "mainbrain" came under assault by humans, it sought to hide itself wherever it could, stripping off portions of itself, fitting in some crude self-replicating instructions, and sending them on their merry way throughout the datastream/noosphere/transmat link.

Old Mechanicus thought of these self-replicating fragments as some literal chunks of the Machine-God, and that's how the myth of Machine-Spirits became started.

Afterwards, any AI-like behavior at all, whether organically-wired, soulful machine intelligences, or straight up AI programming, was associated with these ancient myths of 'machine-god-fragments.'

My $0.02

Personally, I favour the idea that the Emperor is an avatar of the Omnissiah Dei.

But then, I'm an animist in real life (Iracundus, we do exist, there's nothing 'archaic' about our perfectly valid belief system).

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Personally, I favour the idea that the Emperor is an avatar of the Omnissiah Dei.

But then, I'm an animist in real life (Iracundus, we do exist, there's nothing 'archaic' about our perfectly valid belief system).

I never said animists don't exist or that it is archaic. Shintoism is one example of existing animism. However there is a historically a difference between believing natural objects and locations having spirits and believing manufactured artificial objects like your monitor has one. The official dogma of the Mechanicus is a form of machine animism, however while they may point to the ability of a Land Raider to function on its own as evidence of a Machine Spirit, they may not be able to do so for a toaster. Of course that in itself may be rationalized within Mechanicus dogma as due to the lesser power of the spirit of a toaster.

Plus ships and titans are sentient, hell ships are "sapient".

Ships and Titans are believed to be by the humans of the Imperium, but that does not mean they are. Again there is a difference between what is and what the superstitious Imperium believes. A Chaos afflicted ship might be possessed by daemons but that is different again from the ship itself. Titans have often incorporated the personality of a predator animal, but again that could be a function of the organic component included in the "Machine Spirit" aka AI/expert system of the Titan. Ultimately it is a fudge by the Mechanicus to get around the prohibition against creating "true" inorganic AI, by instead incorporating organic elements. With living organic elements however, one starts to get the possibility of greater warp interaction.

No, they really are sapient.

The machine spirit of a Titan or Starship is built up of the psychic imprints of all of the people who have sat in its command throne and Mind Impulse Linked with the ship. The more frequently an individual links with the ship, the stronger the 'ghost' they leave behind becomes, and the ghosts combine together to create the ship's sapient machine spirit.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
No, they really are sapient.

The machine spirit of a Titan or Starship is built up of the psychic imprints of all of the people who have sat in its command throne and Mind Impulse Linked with the ship. The more frequently an individual links with the ship, the stronger the 'ghost' they leave behind becomes, and the ghosts combine together to create the ship's sapient machine spirit.

You have just expressed the in-character viewpoint of the characters in the 40K era. That is not the same as what is true from an out of character viewpoint though. Also if we are talking adaptive AI systems that adapt to the individual user's thought patterns, that is a function of the technology, but again that is not the mystical Machine Spirit of the Mechanicus religious dogma though they may interpret it as such. Yes I am aware that Titans may have their own predatory like thoughts and urges, but from the background, if they have the thought or emotional patterns of a predatory animal imprinted upon the system, that would explain it as well.

What the Mechanicus believe is not necessarily what is true. They believe Gauss weapons are mathematically impossible and claim to have proven them so, but tell that to the Necrons.

It's not an "in character viewpoint" so much as soemthing that has been provided with empirical evidence across multiple novels from different authors.

Hekate's princeps literally talked to him from the manifold, after all, and Carmenta psychically bonded herself to her ship permanently by merging with the MIU.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
It's not an "in character viewpoint" so much as soemthing that has been provided with empirical evidence across multiple novels from different authors.

Hekate's princeps literally talked to him from the manifold, after all, and Carmenta psychically bonded herself to her ship permanently by merging with the MIU.

There are other stories that skew in a different direction though. Like many concepts in the Black Library, it's subjective and sometimes contradictory. If you prefer the 'built up psychic imprint' explanation, that's fine, and it's no more right or wrong than any other. Personally, I prefer the 'quasi-sentience of unknown origin and possibly malevolent nature' line of thought. I think it makes for a more powerful story.

And personally, I like the suggestion that the Omnissiah is the Void Dragon. Once a C'Tan, before the Necron reboot, (now the ONLY C'Tan?) I find the possibility that these semi-intelligences that have cropped up in Imperium machinery since Mars was brought into the fold are the work of this powerful entity to be a very sinister notion. After all, the C'Tan have already shown that they are capable of grafting consciousness and machine, and it isn't too great a leap from 'bind consciousness to machine' to 'awaken consciousness within machine.'

Broly wrote:
I always believed Machine Spirit is nonsense.

Big machines like Titans, space ships and Land Raiders have some sort of AI built into them. Absolutely nothing magical or other-worldy about it.

Anything simpler than that doesn't have a "machine spirit" (AI).

A baneblade machine spirit had precog. IE, it could see the future.

If the Void Dragon is the Omnissiah and granted mankind power of machinery wouldn't that mean the Imperium is even more boned if the thing awakes? It'd make Skynet's take over look like a kid shooting people with a nerf gun.

I personally think the Omnissiah is fake and that Machine Spirits are really just superstitious people acting superstitious about computers.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Broly wrote:
I always believed Machine Spirit is nonsense.

Big machines like Titans, space ships and Land Raiders have some sort of AI built into them. Absolutely nothing magical or other-worldy about it.

Anything simpler than that doesn't have a "machine spirit" (AI).

A baneblade machine spirit had precog. IE, it could see the future.

Can you provide the full reference for it?

Without seeing the entire situation, it's hard to see if this was warp induced or not. It's quite possible that a sufenctly advanced AI could give the impresion that it is precognitive. A good example of that is the Necrons, which possess nothing from the warp, but are able to "See into the future" due to logic and calculations.

 Sasori wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

Broly wrote:
I always believed Machine Spirit is nonsense.

Big machines like Titans, space ships and Land Raiders have some sort of AI built into them. Absolutely nothing magical or other-worldy about it.

Anything simpler than that doesn't have a "machine spirit" (AI).

A baneblade machine spirit had precog. IE, it could see the future.

Can you provide the full reference for it?

Without seeing the entire situation, it's hard to see if this was warp induced or not. It's quite possible that a sufenctly advanced AI could give the impresion that it is precognitive. A good example of that is the Necrons, which possess nothing from the warp, but are able to "See into the future" due to logic and calculations.

It was in the novel Baneblade. I don't have it on hand, but ti remember the crew conversing with the machine spirit and the AI being able to anticipate the future.

Guys!

Guys!

Guys!

Wouldn't it be funny of Gork was the Machine-God and Mork were the Omnissiah? or vice versa?

Mind

Blown

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

Broly wrote:
I always believed Machine Spirit is nonsense.

Big machines like Titans, space ships and Land Raiders have some sort of AI built into them. Absolutely nothing magical or other-worldy about it.

Anything simpler than that doesn't have a "machine spirit" (AI).

A baneblade machine spirit had precog. IE, it could see the future.

Can you provide the full reference for it?

Without seeing the entire situation, it's hard to see if this was warp induced or not. It's quite possible that a sufenctly advanced AI could give the impresion that it is precognitive. A good example of that is the Necrons, which possess nothing from the warp, but are able to "See into the future" due to logic and calculations.

It was in the novel Baneblade. I don't have it on hand, but ti remember the crew conversing with the machine spirit and the AI being able to anticipate the future.

So, there is no direct evidence of the warp being involved? That sounds to me like it could just be advanced AI at work.

 Sasori wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

Broly wrote:
I always believed Machine Spirit is nonsense.

Big machines like Titans, space ships and Land Raiders have some sort of AI built into them. Absolutely nothing magical or other-worldy about it.

Anything simpler than that doesn't have a "machine spirit" (AI).

A baneblade machine spirit had precog. IE, it could see the future.

Can you provide the full reference for it?

Without seeing the entire situation, it's hard to see if this was warp induced or not. It's quite possible that a sufenctly advanced AI could give the impresion that it is precognitive. A good example of that is the Necrons, which possess nothing from the warp, but are able to "See into the future" due to logic and calculations.

It was in the novel Baneblade. I don't have it on hand, but ti remember the crew conversing with the machine spirit and the AI being able to anticipate the future.

So, there is no direct evidence of the warp being involved? That sounds to me like it could just be advanced AI at work.

True, but I've never heard of machines in 40k (at least non Necron ones) having the computer power to predict the future.

Machine god is the void dragon- no one wants to admit it

The 'Omnissiah' is how the Mechanicum keeps the Ecclesiarchy happy.

Machine spirits are organic artificial intelligence, kinda confuses me but I just take it as an animals soul is bound to an AI before it's finished, protecting it from chaos computer viruses but making it susceptible to corruption and giving it emotions and other warp magic. The more powerful the machine, the more powerful the spirit it is given or it is given more spirits, maybe both i'm not sure it varies where you look fiction-wise. Also, They slowly gain personalities as more pilots leave ghosts of themselves that the spirit can refer to when it needs help, doing what they would of done in the situation. Lastly, a regular machine spirit is more of a supplement to the living pilot, doing the boring jobs in the machine whilst the pilot gets to be all cool and fly/drive/shoot the vehicle. Whilst the machine spirit may resist and contend, ultimately the pilot is in control.

That's how I see it.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Omnissiah is the Void Dragon. Machine Spirits exist.

'Tis my two cents.

Agreed.

Although I believe Machine Spirits are just AI.

Well, yes and no. Either Machine Spirits are incredibly advanced AI, or they're mechanical souls or something like it. I'm pretty sure AI can't develop psyker abilities which was demonstrated by one Machine Spirit.

I believe I read somewhere that the Machine Spirit is the remnant of an incredibly advanced sentient AI that was present in the STCs from the Dark Age of Technology.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

Broly wrote:
I always believed Machine Spirit is nonsense.

Big machines like Titans, space ships and Land Raiders have some sort of AI built into them. Absolutely nothing magical or other-worldy about it.

Anything simpler than that doesn't have a "machine spirit" (AI).

A baneblade machine spirit had precog. IE, it could see the future.

Can you provide the full reference for it?

Without seeing the entire situation, it's hard to see if this was warp induced or not. It's quite possible that a sufenctly advanced AI could give the impresion that it is precognitive. A good example of that is the Necrons, which possess nothing from the warp, but are able to "See into the future" due to logic and calculations.

It was in the novel Baneblade. I don't have it on hand, but ti remember the crew conversing with the machine spirit and the AI being able to anticipate the future.

So, there is no direct evidence of the warp being involved? That sounds to me like it could just be advanced AI at work.

True, but I've never heard of machines in 40k (at least non Necron ones) having the computer power to predict the future.

Perhaps this particular machine spirit mutated, somehow. Since this doesn't happen very often, it can either be chalked up to bad writing or a special machine spirit that had somehow mutated it's code.

the machine god is likely the void dragon. but the Omnisah is the Emperor. because ultimatly the Omnisah was a prophecy deliberatly created By the emperor, to be the emperor, to ensure that when the time came they would follow him. in short the Omnisah was a fabricated prophecy by the Emperor, ABOUT the emperor

Lords of Mars seems to say that the Titans have feelings. Meh, FOR THE GLORY OF CHAOS AND THE DARK MECHANICUM!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! *cough, wheeze*

Your lungs appear to be malfunctioning. You should maintain them more properly, brothr Rising, lest their spirit desert you when you most need it.

Apolegies. I had a bit of ammo going down the wrong pipe. Why the dark mechanicus deemed it fit to put my ammo storage in my stomach only tzeentch knows.