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It is a silly and absurd part of the fluff.

In reality though, a chapter could certainly defeat a planet. They could never do anything other than tear it apart but destroying the ability of the planetary government and governmental officers is doable. They couldn't ever oversee a rebuilding or long term transition.

 Ignatius wrote:


I'll have to respectfully disagree with you about a modern army's ability to combat Space Marines. I am beyond confident that the. United States military would be completely capable of the destruction of an entire Space Marines chapter. Though it's completely impossible to debate this with factual evidence.

And that there is the problem with the fluff these days. The humans are great/and nothing like the people of these days condition, its got a name, but cant remember how it goes . Its also ruining the game.
It seems less grim dark these days.

Im sure the US military could destroy a chapter in a stand up, toe to toe fight, if you can bring all your weapons to bear.
SM dont, and never should fight like that. SM are the spear tip, go for the throat, or the S.E.A.L.S of this day and age. Strike where they want, if they want. But they should be able to tear through your invincible armoured bunker. This isn't Independence day were you can miraculously pull something out of your arse and give the enemy a cold.

If you think your missiles would hit the target, sad trombone mp3.
No satellites, means you not hitting anything you can't see. You have no communications with anyone you can't just yell at. You can't organize your army for a planet wide defence. Which means your just a faction, not much different from North Korea

Your planes don't know where they are. You would be like the Taliban fighting Merica. Can you defend the leadership against a drop pod or a jet chinook , where you can't bring your massive fire power to bear? how many tanks can you put in these bunkers. Ooops president and his cabinet (think that's what they called)
Then your just separate detachments, ripe for the picking.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

slade the sniper wrote:


Bottom Line: Space Marines, as written in fluff will only work if they fight incompetent, low tech monolithic enemies.

-STS

So a bit like Mericka

the ancient wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:


I'll have to respectfully disagree with you about a modern army's ability to combat Space Marines. I am beyond confident that the. United States military would be completely capable of the destruction of an entire Space Marines chapter. Though it's completely impossible to debate this with factual evidence.

And that there is the problem with the fluff these days. The humans are great/and nothing like the people of these days condition, its got a name, but cant remember how it goes . Its also ruining the game.
It seems less grim dark these days.

Im sure the US military could destroy a chapter in a stand up, toe to toe fight, if you can bring all your weapons to bear.
SM dont, and never should fight like that. SM are the spear tip, go for the throat, or the S.E.A.L.S of this day and age. Strike where they want, if they want. But they should be able to tear through your invincible armoured bunker. This isn't Independence day were you can miraculously pull something out of your arse and give the enemy a cold.

If you think your missiles would hit the target, sad trombone mp3.
No satellites, means you not hitting anything you can't see. You have no communications with anyone you can't just yell at. You can't organize your army for a planet wide defence. Which means your just a faction, not much different from North Korea

Your planes don't know where they are. You would be like the Taliban fighting Merica. Can you defend the leadership against a drop pod or a jet chinook , where you can't bring your massive fire power to bear? how many tanks can you put in these bunkers. Ooops president and his cabinet (think that's what they called)
Then your just separate detachments, ripe for the picking.

Why do I suddenly have to solely fight on their terms? Why are we suddenly assuming the Space Marines know where our highest leaders are? If you honestly believe the Space Marines would be able to knock out all forms of global communication then I'm not sure why I'm having this conversation. Satellites? Yes, undoubtably. But that's not our only means. Ever heard of telegraph?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

slade the sniper wrote:


Bottom Line: Space Marines, as written in fluff will only work if they fight incompetent, low tech monolithic enemies.

-STS

So a bit like Mericka

Is that supposed to make me laugh? Let me laugh at your profession and see how you like it.

You may be taking that joke a bit too personal.

 Ignatius wrote:

the ancient wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:


I'll have to respectfully disagree with you about a modern army's ability to combat Space Marines. I am beyond confident that the. United States military would be completely capable of the destruction of an entire Space Marines chapter. Though it's completely impossible to debate this with factual evidence.

And that there is the problem with the fluff these days. The humans are great/and nothing like the people of these days condition, its got a name, but cant remember how it goes . Its also ruining the game.
It seems less grim dark these days.

Im sure the US military could destroy a chapter in a stand up, toe to toe fight, if you can bring all your weapons to bear.
SM dont, and never should fight like that. SM are the spear tip, go for the throat, or the S.E.A.L.S of this day and age. Strike where they want, if they want. But they should be able to tear through your invincible armoured bunker. This isn't Independence day were you can miraculously pull something out of your arse and give the enemy a cold.

If you think your missiles would hit the target, sad trombone mp3.
No satellites, means you not hitting anything you can't see. You have no communications with anyone you can't just yell at. You can't organize your army for a planet wide defence. Which means your just a faction, not much different from North Korea

Your planes don't know where they are. You would be like the Taliban fighting Merica. Can you defend the leadership against a drop pod or a jet chinook , where you can't bring your massive fire power to bear? how many tanks can you put in these bunkers. Ooops president and his cabinet (think that's what they called)
Then your just separate detachments, ripe for the picking.

Why do I suddenly have to solely fight on their terms? Why are we suddenly assuming the Space Marines know where our highest leaders are? If you honestly believe the Space Marines would be able to knock out all forms of global communication then I'm not sure why I'm having this conversation. Satellites? Yes, undoubtably. But that's not our only means. Ever heard of telegraph? /quote]

You ever heard of Librarians or Techmarines? Our communications will be watched over by them while Librarians can both read our minds. Combat-wise, Space Marines are near invisible to IR, Corvus IS invisible, their basic guns will take down everything up to heavy armor, their special/heavy weapons will one-shot all of our armor and aircraft, and their infantry meanwhile runs around 45 miles per hour, dodges supersonic projectiles, and can tank a short from an MBT. Plus they have orbital superiority and can shoot power plants whenever wished or slag military bases with a single shot. Civilians would be screaming for surrender or just screaming in general, morale would be down, and leaders would be picked off and executed, probably publicly.

Perhaps I did take it too personally but it's a little difficult not to.

But as someone who has seen out technology at work in person, as in standing next to some of our coolest developments, I don't believe a group of hypothetical soldiers can defeat us.

Biased? Sure. Correct? It's an opinion so it's impossible to be.

All I can say is that I've seen and done too many things to believe any argument about a defeat. My experience is obviously different than yours though

I find it extremely arrogant to believe that a 5.56 NATO round will do more than glance off power armour, heh.

Something you need to realise about 40k is that armour technology is insane. Ork Hide grants a 6+ save and has been stated in white dwarf (although it was a while ago) to be as tough as 20th century ballistic armour.

That means that a standard modern handgun firing lead-cored copper-jacketed bullets is going to bounce off what the 40k universe considers the lightest possible armour worth mentioning.

 Ashiraya wrote:
You may be taking that joke a bit too personal.

In the last post I put out there were quite few people dissing America. I don't wanna nitpick but that does bother me just a little bit. A little common respect is appreciated on a warhammer 40k social network, disagreeing does not give ground to insult but I guess since I'm a dirty American my opinion doesn't rightly matter.

I don't blame you of course, I'm just saying, there are some people too immature to hold a debate without mocking the flag adjacent to my username.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I find it extremely arrogant to believe that a 5.56 NATO round will do more than glance off power armour, heh.

Something you need to realise about 40k is that armour technology is insane. Ork Hide grants a 6+ save and has been stated in white dwarf (although it was a while ago) to be as tough as 20th century ballistic armour.

That means that a standard modern handgun firing lead-cored copper-jacketed bullets is going to bounce off what the 40k universe considers the lightest possible armour worth mentioning.

An auto gun has been pretty much all but expressly stated as being a modern day assault rifle, which is comparable to the las gun. Which in turn is depended upon by the Imperium for her armies to successfully stand up to those armors.

Sure an M4 won't dent the ceremite a marine wears, but what about their joints, servos, and optics?

And "bounce off" their armor is significantly down playing what is felt after taking a round in a ballistic vest. We also have these bullets that are known as "armor piercing" for pretty obvious reasons.

True or not, a lot of non-Americans consider the US army to be a bit of a joke compared to other fighting forces in the world.

The reason? The majority of war movies we see celebrate the American military. Its "Big Sword" syndrome. America talks itself up to ridiculous levels, so most other people, especially non-military types, think "they must be compensating for something."

It doesn't help that what most other countries mostly hear about regarding US troop movements is how many friendly fire incidents we've suffered through this month, and the fact that the American super-elite SEAL unit are considered to be cute by most other special forces. SWAT, Delta Force and the Rangers get more respect than the SEALs outside America.

Now, its not my intention to put the US armed forces or any Dakka members who are part of said armed forces down. I'm merely trying to offer reasons why people do such. I'm not a soldier and never intend to be a soldier, so I don't think I'm qualified to comment on real world militaries.

 Ignatius wrote:
Perhaps I did take it too personally but it's a little difficult not to.

But as someone who has seen out technology at work in person, as in standing next to some of our coolest developments, I don't believe a group of hypothetical soldiers can defeat us.

Biased? Sure. Correct? It's an opinion so it's impossible to be.

All I can say is that I've seen and done too many things to believe any argument about a defeat. My experience is obviously different than yours though

I took it personally too. On my last post which is quite recent, people were dissing America. I think the person on this particular page meant it as a joke but the others sure didn't.

And it's perfectly alright to be proud of that technology, maybe you can come up with the worlds first boltgun

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
Perhaps I did take it too personally but it's a little difficult not to.

But as someone who has seen out technology at work in person, as in standing next to some of our coolest developments, I don't believe a group of hypothetical soldiers can defeat us.

Biased? Sure. Correct? It's an opinion so it's impossible to be.

All I can say is that I've seen and done too many things to believe any argument about a defeat. My experience is obviously different than yours though

I took it personally too. On my last post which is quite recent, people were dissing America. I think the person on this particular page meant it as a joke but the others sure didn't.

And it's perfectly alright to be proud of that technology, maybe you can come up with the worlds first boltgun

People already did come up with prototypes which operated on the same principle of the boltgun. It was scrapped because it was expensive and unreliable.

 Ignatius wrote:

An auto gun has been pretty much all but expressly stated as being a modern day assault rifle, which is comparable to the las gun. Which in turn is depended upon by the Imperium for her armies to successfully stand up to those armors.

Sure an M4 won't dent the ceremite a marine wears, but what about their joints, servos, and optics?

And "bounce off" their armor is significantly down playing what is felt after taking a round in a ballistic vest. We also have these bullets that are known as "armor piercing" for pretty obvious reasons.

Right, and just how effective is the standard auto/lasgun shown to be against power armour? Or Eldar armour for that matter?

It isn't. It has no notable armour penetration capabilities. When someone fails their 3+ power armour save? That's your lucky or very carefully aimed shot hitting a joint or whatever. Your gun cannot penetrate the front plate of power armour. You might stagger the guy inside it a little, but the Marine probably has enough weight on him to avoid being knocked flat.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


People already did come up with prototypes which operated on the same principle of the boltgun. It was scrapped because it was expensive and unreliable.

Expensive and unreliable?

So, just like bolters are shown to be in the fluff, ne?

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:

An auto gun has been pretty much all but expressly stated as being a modern day assault rifle, which is comparable to the las gun. Which in turn is depended upon by the Imperium for her armies to successfully stand up to those armors.

Sure an M4 won't dent the ceremite a marine wears, but what about their joints, servos, and optics?

And "bounce off" their armor is significantly down playing what is felt after taking a round in a ballistic vest. We also have these bullets that are known as "armor piercing" for pretty obvious reasons.

Right, and just how effective is the standard auto/lasgun shown to be against power armour? Or Eldar armour for that matter?

It isn't. It has no notable armour penetration capabilities. When someone fails their 3+ power armour save? That's your lucky or very carefully aimed shot hitting a joint or whatever. Your gun cannot penetrate the front plate of power armour. You might stagger the guy inside it a little, but the Marine probably has enough weight on him to avoid being knocked flat.

Thing is, our ballistic weapons would be more effective against power armour than lasguns for the simple fact that a lasgun would dissipate all of its energy on the point it hits due to it being a laser.

Our rounds, on the other hand, would be deflected due to the curvature of the marine armour. And, due to the really poor design of power armour, these deflections typically go straight into joints including the shoulder, neck, back of the knee, upper thigh etc. Power Armour was designed by someone who knew feth all about effective armour design.

Furyou Miko wrote:True or not, a lot of non-Americans consider the US army to be a bit of a joke compared to other fighting forces in the world.

The reason? The majority of war movies we see celebrate the American military. Its "Big Sword" syndrome. America talks itself up to ridiculous levels, so most other people, especially non-military types, think "they must be compensating for something."

It doesn't help that what most other countries mostly hear about regarding US troop movements is how many friendly fire incidents we've suffered through this month, and the fact that the American super-elite SEAL unit are considered to be cute by most other special forces. SWAT, Delta Force and the Rangers get more respect than the SEALs outside America.

Now, its not my intention to put the US armed forces or any Dakka members who are part of said armed forces down. I'm merely trying to offer reasons why people do such. I'm not a soldier and never intend to be a soldier, so I don't think I'm qualified to comment on real world militaries.

It's alright, I know pretty first handily how people outside the United States view our military.

SWAT is a police organization and is not a part of our military so that's interesting they are getting more respect than SEALs. Being an army guy myself, I agree that the SEALs are over hyped (perhaps a bit like the Space marines? ) and that Delta Force is the Bees Knees. Rangers aren't Special Forces either, and as excited as I am to get my Ranger rocker in a year or so I don't know if I can honestly say they compare to the SEALs.

Look at the Israeli special forces if you want a real good example of world class military units. Man those guys are tough.

I'll also tell you that there are a great many people in the United States that look at the military with disdain. I've been thanked and saluted walking the street in a uniform just as many times as I've been damned and spit on. And I'm almost afraid of wearing my uniform on my college campus for the hate I get too

Anyways, YMMV.

Furyou Miko wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:

An auto gun has been pretty much all but expressly stated as being a modern day assault rifle, which is comparable to the las gun. Which in turn is depended upon by the Imperium for her armies to successfully stand up to those armors.

Sure an M4 won't dent the ceremite a marine wears, but what about their joints, servos, and optics?

And "bounce off" their armor is significantly down playing what is felt after taking a round in a ballistic vest. We also have these bullets that are known as "armor piercing" for pretty obvious reasons.

Right, and just how effective is the standard auto/lasgun shown to be against power armour? Or Eldar armour for that matter?

It isn't. It has no notable armour penetration capabilities. When someone fails their 3+ power armour save? That's your lucky or very carefully aimed shot hitting a joint or whatever. Your gun cannot penetrate the front plate of power armour. You might stagger the guy inside it a little, but the Marine probably has enough weight on him to avoid being knocked flat.

I was pointing out that the weapon (las gun) has been depicted as able to hit sensors and joints in the fluff, so why can't an M4? We've also got a lot of specialized weapons the military can hand out to common soldiers that fire a round larger than the 5.56 (7.62). I also understand that armor piercing rounds still won't go into ceremite, I was just pointing out that we have equipment to deal with pretty much anything found today, with a lot of crap that I have no idea for what purpose it was created in the first place.

One thing I feel like we have completely left out is air power. The marines have what? Storm talons? An F22, F35, Mig35 or SU47 (wonky looking thing that SU47 is) seems to outclass the tiny helicopter looking storm talon. But maybe that's just me.

Well, yeah, the Storm Talon is basically a fat Comanche. >> and against a real combat aircraft... well, there's a reason the Comanche was discontinued as a project.

The Storm Talon is atrocious and it doesn't matter if it has a wind shield that can shrug off nuclear weapons, those massive turbines on the sides are just waiting for a sidewinder to plow it into the ground.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
True or not, a lot of non-Americans consider the US army to be a bit of a joke compared to other fighting forces in the world.

The reason? The majority of war movies we see celebrate the American military. Its "Big Sword" syndrome. America talks itself up to ridiculous levels, so most other people, especially non-military types, think "they must be compensating for something."

It doesn't help that what most other countries mostly hear about regarding US troop movements is how many friendly fire incidents we've suffered through this month, and the fact that the American super-elite SEAL unit are considered to be cute by most other special forces. SWAT, Delta Force and the Rangers get more respect than the SEALs outside America.

Now, its not my intention to put the US armed forces or any Dakka members who are part of said armed forces down. I'm merely trying to offer reasons why people do such. I'm not a soldier and never intend to be a soldier, so I don't think I'm qualified to comment on real world militaries.

I won't stand for the insults of my armed military, who fight for my freedom everyday. Leave my country out of the picture.

I'm not insulting you. I'm telling you why people are insulting you, so that you can understand and forgive them for being different.

I don't forgive such ignorance. You called my military a joke...that's awesome that my soldiers come home dead or missing limbs and sure...its a joke. Hate us all you want but dont spew your BS about how that stuff is a joke.

I love your fervor Lord Tarkin, and the support you clearly have for our military. I wish everyone here was like you.

That said, miko didn't actually say our military was a joke, merely that there are a lot of people that do, and then gave reasons why.

Lots of people don't like us, and that's okay. And lots of people think we are a joke. And that's okay too. Doesn't mean they are right mind you.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
I don't forgive such ignorance. You called my military a joke...that's awesome that my soldiers come home dead or missing limbs and sure...its a joke. Hate us all you want but dont spew your BS about how that stuff is a joke.

What Ignatius said. Stop being angry and start reading. I am not your enemy.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I find it extremely arrogant to believe that a 5.56 NATO round will do more than glance off power armour, heh.

Something you need to realise about 40k is that armour technology is insane. Ork Hide grants a 6+ save and has been stated in white dwarf (although it was a while ago) to be as tough as 20th century ballistic armour.

That means that a standard modern handgun firing lead-cored copper-jacketed bullets is going to bounce off what the 40k universe considers the lightest possible armour worth mentioning.

Orks are crazy. They're not hyper-augmented like Astartes, but can take a shot from a lasgun to the face and remain unfazed and keep charging, even blowing their brain out doesn't kill them. I'll always remember one plucky Ork from Siege of Castellax that has a lasgun burn a hole clean through his head. He/it only died when he poked his finger into the hole and realized he should be dead.

Even then, Orks can be healed by a Mad Dok just stitching the head back on to the nearest body.

Also, lasguns are waaaay beyond modern firearms in the power department. While they're a joke in 40K because of the scale, they'd be indispensable in real life. But an M4 won't do gak against power armor considering Marines can walk right through point blank frag grenades without any damage. But if we take Thules as Joules, the Lasgun is beyond the M4 as it's a 19 Megajoule shot.

Fair enough about the M4 vs las gun. I had just been going off the auto gun=lasgun (which in itself may not be true, but game wise it is) and auto gun= modern day assault rifle (again May not be true). It's all I had to go off.

I'll still assume that an M4 can go through the eye lenses of a marines helmet or some of the softer joints in his armor though.

Also, Orks are fantastic.

No, just don't talk about my country like that, don't do it. It was completely uncalled for. I didn't ask you for a list of reasons as to why people hate America, I didn't did I? Just leave it alone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ignatius wrote:
I love your fervor Lord Tarkin, and the support you clearly have for our military. I wish everyone here was like you.

That said, miko didn't actually say our military was a joke, merely that there are a lot of people that do, and then gave reasons why.

Lots of people don't like us, and that's okay. And lots of people think we are a joke. And that's okay too. Doesn't mean they are right mind you.

Not how interpreted any of it. I don't appreciate it at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'll leave this alone now but I don't wanna see America come up again...ever again.

Besides, a marine in PA is heavy enough to trigger AT mines. The guy is tough and the armor might survive with only dents, but it's still going to land with liquified guy inside it after hitting 10 kilos of TNT.

 Ignatius wrote:
Fair enough about the M4 vs las gun. I had just been going off the auto gun=lasgun (which in itself may not be true, but game wise it is) and auto gun= modern day assault rifle (again May not be true). It's all I had to go off.

I'll still assume that an M4 can go through the eye lenses of a marines helmet or some of the softer joints in his armor though.

Also, Orks are fantastic.

You have to remember as well in 40K that autoguns are fifty caliber rifles normally. The eye lense is also reinforced, and Astartes consider the loss of an eyeball a flesh wound.

Yeah, Lasguns deal very lethal wounds and can blast limbs off. They are very powerful weapons compared to anything we have. These are considered flashlights compared to a lot of 40k guns.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Yeah, Lasguns deal very lethal wounds and can blast limbs off. They are very powerful weapons compared to anything we have. These are considered flashlights compared to a lot of 40k guns.

Still, the idea that they're 19 Megajoules is fething nuts, that's on par with a tank cannon. I've always interpreted it as the power pack storing 19 megajoules of energy for all of their shots. So around 475,000,000 joules per shot instead of 19,000,000,000.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
Fair enough about the M4 vs las gun. I had just been going off the auto gun=lasgun (which in itself may not be true, but game wise it is) and auto gun= modern day assault rifle (again May not be true). It's all I had to go off.

I'll still assume that an M4 can go through the eye lenses of a marines helmet or some of the softer joints in his armor though.

Also, Orks are fantastic.

You have to remember as well in 40K that autoguns are fifty caliber rifles normally. The eye lense is also reinforced, and Astartes consider the loss of an eyeball a flesh wound.

I was so afraid of them being .50 caliber. So afraid. And now that it seems my fears are realized, so stupid. The idea of some dude running around with a .50 cal shoulder fired fully automatic weapon hurts my shoulder just thinking about it.

True enough about the loss of an eyeball being a flesh wound. However both? Now it's interesting. Perhaps he will be disabled long enough for a team to maneuver around and throw some C4 or something on him and take him out.

Also, I'm pretty confident a HEAT round from an M1 Abrams will punch right through a ceremite chest plate.

And are we ignoring air support? Because that's different. I'm not denying marines outclass well, me. But I've also got support from the likes of A-10s and AC-130s.

 Ignatius wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
Fair enough about the M4 vs las gun. I had just been going off the auto gun=lasgun (which in itself may not be true, but game wise it is) and auto gun= modern day assault rifle (again May not be true). It's all I had to go off.

I'll still assume that an M4 can go through the eye lenses of a marines helmet or some of the softer joints in his armor though.

Also, Orks are fantastic.

You have to remember as well in 40K that autoguns are fifty caliber rifles normally. The eye lense is also reinforced, and Astartes consider the loss of an eyeball a flesh wound.

I was so afraid of them being .50 caliber. So afraid. And now that it seems my fears are realized, so stupid. The idea of some dude running around with a .50 cal shoulder fired fully automatic weapon hurts my shoulder just thinking about it.

True enough about the loss of an eyeball being a flesh wound. However both? Now it's interesting. Perhaps he will be disabled long enough for a team to maneuver around and throw some C4 or something on him and take him out.

Also, I'm pretty confident a HEAT round from an M1 Abrams will punch right through a ceremite chest plate.

And are we ignoring air support? Because that's different. I'm not denying marines outclass well, me. But I've also got support from the likes of A-10s and AC-130s.

A-10's and AC-130's would be one-shotted by Lascannons, beautiful weapons those things are.

Also, if a space marine lost both his eyes... hm. Echolocation?