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 DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote:
I made no such claim. I said human psychics.

IOW, wizards and magic spells. Pretending that "psychics" is a more dignified name doesn't change the substance of the claim.

Theres plenty of psychic practices that exist, plenty of idiots that claim they can see into the future and gak.

Yes, there are lots of gullible morons and/or scammers who will gladly take your money for a "psychic reading" or whatever. That doesn't make them real psychics.

And it's widely disputed.

No, it really isn't. It's only "disputed" by gullible morons and people who really wish that their fantasy world of wizards and magic spells was real. There is no credible argument that this is anything other than ignorance and wishful thinking.

Anyways, do you agree that matter, ALL MATTER (which is life itself) is energy? EVERYTHING IS MADE OF ENERGY? Do you like this fact?

Does a random fact from physics have anything to do with this discussion? No.

 Peregrine wrote:

 DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote:
I made no such claim. I said human psychics.

IOW, wizards and magic spells. Pretending that "psychics" is a more dignified name doesn't change the substance of the claim.

Theres plenty of psychic practices that exist, plenty of idiots that claim they can see into the future and gak.

Yes, there are lots of gullible morons and/or scammers who will gladly take your money for a "psychic reading" or whatever. That doesn't make them real psychics.

And it's widely disputed.

No, it really isn't. It's only "disputed" by gullible morons and people who really wish that their fantasy world of wizards and magic spells was real. There is no credible argument that this is anything other than ignorance and wishful thinking.

You got it the wrong way. I said that, there are plenty of "psychic" practices that are widely disputed. The mainstream science academy disputes these so called "psychics"... Your a chirpy one aren't yeah?

I was agreeing with why you have jumped the gun and laid down the label of "psychics" being ridiculous. These people and their practices are heavily disputed by the academies. Thats what I meant. Capeesh?

You jumped to a conclusion that I for some reason think of psychics being "wizards".

I was simply comparing 40K marines versus earth humans. 40K psykers where mentioned, then I later compared 40K psykers to these so called, self proclaimed human "psychics".

Anyways, do you agree that matter, ALL MATTER (which is life itself) is energy? EVERYTHING IS MADE OF ENERGY? Do you like this fact?

Does a random fact from physics have anything to do with this discussion? No.

You didn't answer my question and it is not random. It has nothing to do with marines, but it has something to do with science, and you like science don't you? ACtually, technically it does have everything do with everything, everything is energy.

Thats why I threw that in there. So? Do you believe everything is made of energy?

Just say yes or no man, quit thinking to hard. This is a scientific fact, that all matter is energy, yaddayadda.

 DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote:

slade the sniper wrote:

I suppose that you think that thoughts are in some universal language...they aren't, at least according to the latest research, since ideas and thoughts are limited by the language that a culture possesses..

That is but a denser layer of consciousness more commonly used by us humans.

Life is universal. No matter how cut off, fragmented a state of being a sentient "thing" (like me and you, or orks) becomes, it always can if it tries to, to flow from the source, and not rely on external ideas. Spoken languages are the most primitive form of "communication".

This is how psykers operate - from many if not all of the layers that construct life, matter, mind, etc. Not just grey matter. They start from the "spot" where galaxies are created from, only on a isolated level, personal, channelled self. Hell, even some of our own human psychics are advanced enough to acess the more ethereal densities at will. Eventually, there comes a point where all is seen to be fully connected - and the information pours in. There is only one language, and that is life it self.

Your spoken tongue has and always will be a factor limiting human's perception of the greater forces at work. We as a species have been conditioned, indoctrinated by so many covert and overt things that no body stood a chance at personal growth, only the things forced upon them, the restricted environment lead to big isolation.

Therefore, many of mans ideas and thoughts are pre-formed by all of these external influences.

The psykers however, remember how life REALLY works, how you are your own god, and that matter is energy. Energy is you, you are energy. The air between your body and anothers is not to be confused as empty space, same with the space between planets. All is connected molecularily, atomically, energetically.

Psykers can use this energy.

Compared to your puny 3rd density slow purely mechanical thoughts and ideas, coming from jsut a small part of your entire essence - these psykers kick ass.

I really have no idea how that is going to glean intelligence value from 6+ billion human minds simultaneously from orbit...
Space magic = victory because reasons?

-STS

 DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote:
I was simply comparing 40K marines versus earth humans. 40K psykers where mentioned, then I later compared 40K psykers to these so called, self proclaimed human "psychics".

Then perhaps you could have clarified, when I asked you to do so, that you weren't actually claiming that psychic powers are real. You could have saved quite a bit of argument.

WHAT THE FETH!!!
I come back to a perfectly good thread to see...
SUPRISE SUPRISE..
it... went... dakka

 Inquisitor Bob wrote:
WHAT THE FETH!!!
I come back to a perfectly good thread to see...
SUPRISE SUPRISE..
it... went... dakka

Sorry, I wanted to stop, but im infected, I can no longer help it :(

You are right though, it didnt have to lead to what it did.

Sorry

like seriously what does a hippy ass convo between 2-3 people about con-artists and psychers ahev G!A!K! to do with a FICTIONAL UNIVERSE... come on people stop smoking and start proving your not a bunch of white wolf wannabe's

To be fair, Peregrine, if we're going to cook up a fictional reality where Space Marines are going to invade us, we pretty much have to assume that psychics are real in said reality, because the Space Marines are going to bring them with.

Sticking your hands over your ears and saying "but there's no such thing as psychics!" is pointless when discussing being invaded by an army with psychic support. :p

Im a professional psychic guys

Tomorrow furyou miko is going to comment on this thread again.. Peregrine will always continue to be difficult.. My brother will wear blue when he wakes up.. Ignatius will develop the worlds first true bolter and then accidently shoot the guy next to him that was suppose to pay him for it... And morgan freeman will comment on this thread at some point

The funny thing is that even if I don't comment, Tarkin will just say "well, that's because I said she wouldn't so she set out specifically to prove me wrong, which proves nothing."

And I would be right in saying that lol

 DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote:


I made no such claim. I said human psychics. You know? The biggest douche in the universe (South Park episode making fun of "psychics")? Theres plenty of psychic practices that exist, plenty of idiots that claim they can see into the future and gak.

And it's widely disputed.

Anyways, do you agree that matter, ALL MATTER (which is life itself) is energy? EVERYTHING IS MADE OF ENERGY? Do you like this fact?

Please. Don't use E=mc^2 if you don't understand it. It makes me cry. Life itself is not defined. So stop using scientific facts to try and rationalise space wizards who can read minds and break causality.

Also psychics are not widely disputed. They are all fake. They have never proven their "talents" under scientific rigour.

-comes back into thread-

Hey guys back to continue the discussion on us getting curbsto-

Woah. What happened here? When did we start discussing the unproven supernatural?

Since I turned into a psychic

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Im a professional psychic guys

Tomorrow furyou miko is going to comment on this thread again.. Peregrine will always continue to be difficult.. My brother will wear blue when he wakes up.. Ignatius will develop the worlds first true bolter and then accidently shoot the guy next to him that was suppose to pay him for it... And morgan freeman will comment on this thread at some point

Quoted for truth yo mofo.

 DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Im a professional psychic guys

Tomorrow furyou miko is going to comment on this thread again.. Peregrine will always continue to be difficult.. My brother will wear blue when he wakes up.. Ignatius will develop the worlds first true bolter and then accidently shoot the guy next to him that was suppose to pay him for it... And morgan freeman will comment on this thread at some point

Quoted for truth yo mofo.

Haha

slade the sniper wrote:
I keep seeing and reading how Space Marines can conquer an entire planet with just a Chapter or two, and how one Primarch can solo an entire army or conquer a planet single handedly....

The question is...HOW?

I just don't see it.

I think that a Primarch or a Chapter can locate a singular world government HQ, track all the leadership and then swoop down from orbit, capture/kill all of the leaders, destroy the commo nodes, ortillery the supply depots, nuke a few cities and all that jazz...but that still, to me, is not "conquering" an entire planet.

Especially if there is a planet without a singular government...like modern Earth. If there are 10 or 20 separate countries, how does 1000 marines "conquer" the planet? The fluff seems to be more indicative of 100+ marines doing surgical strikes and then 1 million+ IG dropping down immediately after to wage 5 to 10 years of pacification ops...

As for a Primarch solo'ing a planet? I really can't see that at all...

What say fellow dakkanaughts?

-STS

It has gotten way off topic and a lot to read through so I am throwing my two cents in here.

To me, as some others have said, Space Marines are suppose to be the elite of the elite. In the Horus Heresy, there used to be a lot more Marines in a Legion than there ever was in a Chapter of only a thousand marines which is why when a Legion actually was reduced to a thousand and decided to remain themsevles "Thousand Sons" it was a big deal. So back during the crusade, there was a lot more Space Marines in a given Legion. Regardless of this, when I have read the fluff, I have never gotten the impression that it was just Space Marines conquering galaxies even in the Horus Heresy, that the conquering if worlds was an Imperial effort with the Imperial Guard, Imperial Navy and the Adeptus Mechanicum all doing their part to help conquer planets but command always defaulted to the Space Marines since they were the elite of the elite of military strategists so they would always get the credit instead of the millions of human souls that it took to conquer that planet as well. Also, Primarchs were instrumental in setting up how the planet would be ruled and personally set up the planetary government. Also, several stories about Legions have more prevalent Imperial forces based on how close the Primarch sided with the rest of humanity. The Ultramarines and Raven Guard constantly talk about their Imperial Guard components because they didn't distance themselves from the regular humans but fully integrated into their Legion as a big part of this. The audio drama Raven's Flight does this particularly well to show that their were Imperial Guard components that were a big part of Corax's military force. Gullieman also did this with Ultramar seeing that a big part was an established Imperial Guard regiment. If the person doesn't cut it to be a Space Marine then he serves in the Imperial Guard with a fierce pride and loyalty. To add to that, the Space Wolves and

The Space Marines job was to hit strategic targets that would guarantee compliance while the other Imperial forces held an enemy at bay in other areas of the planet, they go in to secure an objective that would overwhelm any other Imperial Force because they are the best of the best but what makes a better story, the elite Space Marines going in to win a tactical victory that turned the tide of the battle or the month long siege the Imperial Guard that kept the enemy from breaching their defenses? It comes down to drama and in a battle that has gotten to a point where Space Marines are needed to come in and help, the drama is with them.

The details are there and the Space Marines never have conquered a planet on their own having a well orchestrated battle with all Imperial forces, bombardments from the atmosphere from the Imperial Navy, ground siege from Imperial Guard regiments and the AdMech bringing big mechanical toys coming in to support the Space Marines while they go in to secure vital points in the battle. That is why IMO, a more "fluff accurate" Apoc Battle, would include both Imperial Guard and Space Marines to show this relationship.

I think my OP has been answered to my satisfaction, well done dakkanaughts!

-STS

I dont have time to read through the rest of what I have already read however I will give my input on the subject matter.

Space marines are seen as near gods and are revered as such. If you dive into the 40k universe and look at it from the imperium perspective. What better way to make your troops feel more at ease than telling them these 8 ft tall armour clad demi gods can conquer whole planets regardless of truth. If people start correcting the rest of a population just execute them until only those who believe space marines are 1 man armies.

Your joe blogs working in a manufactorum is a pretty dumb or uneducated (or both) guy and takes the emperors word as truth. What better way to quell a rebellion than dropping 100 gods onto the battlefield. "oh gak those god like battle marine guys are here, the emperors wrath is upon us!!!!! run"

The imperium is a web of lies and deceit to keep its citizens in check. The fear generated by the mere thought of an astartes soldier means the beginning of the end to an imperial traitor and loyalist alike. Propaganda is a powerful thing when used on idiots

EDIT: Just finished reading all of this thread. I dont want to add any more to the various sub arguments that have errupted but all I will say (to try and give some perspective) is the only real difference between sci fi and fantasy, is fantasy replaces the word "technology" with "magic".[sarcasm] Pretend that space marine power armour is "magic" (the emperors divine protection or however you want to imagine it) instead of "super duper ceremite plating". Now that you are aware that its magic and completely unexplainable in its magical properties, throw all our meagre earth weapons (if you can even call them that compared to 40k magic fairy pixie weapons) and tell me you aint gak scared and want to surrender and let the emperors divine, divineness enter you! [/sarcasm]

Johnson & The Juice Crew wrote:
I dont have time to read through the rest of what I have already read however I will give my input on the subject matter.

Space marines are seen as near gods and are revered as such. If you dive into the 40k universe and look at it from the imperium perspective. What better way to make your troops feel more at ease than telling them these 8 ft tall armour clad demi gods can conquer whole planets regardless of truth. If people start correcting the rest of a population just execute them until only those who believe space marines are 1 man armies.

Your joe blogs working in a manufactorum is a pretty dumb or uneducated (or both) guy and takes the emperors word as truth. What better way to quell a rebellion than dropping 100 gods onto the battlefield. "oh gak those god like battle marine guys are here, the emperors wrath is upon us!!!!! run"

The imperium is a web of lies and deceit to keep its citizens in check. The fear generated by the mere thought of an astartes soldier means the beginning of the end to an imperial traitor and loyalist alike. Propaganda is a powerful thing when used on idiots

Yes, exactly so. However if forced to actually fight a war at least 1,000 SM's with lots of IG will be needed for victory.

But essentially, the real meaning of "Astartes" is "death" and it has been thoroughly stressed to Imperial citizens. As you said, fear itself is a powerful weapon and nobody uses it better than SM's. It is unfortunately the only way to keep billions and billions of people around the Imperium to obey and unite for a mutual interest....survival.

They don't. Not by themselves.

 Melissia wrote:
They don't. Not by themselves.

Well, they probably could by themselves, but it would have to be at least 100,000

Personally, I see it as follows.

If the IG/AM are not doing the conquering then the SM go in and bulldoze MAJOR resistance like military bases, leadership etc in a series of strategic and brutal precision strikes then when that is all said and done unless they want to make the planet their personal home or their in some way (resources, recruits etc) they move on and let the IG or some garrison force move in and steam roll everything else and establish everything from the Imperial Creed to the new governor and so on as the IG and AM have the man power to dig in stakes and hold it and establish things that the SM can't do unless the chapter drops everything to plant themselves on a new home planet.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
They don't. Not by themselves.

Well, they probably could by themselves, but it would have to be at least 100,000

They would need 100 000 to conquer, but just 1000 cut out the primary targets; just 1000 to purge.

It would be a long and annoying fight for 1000 marines to actually "conquer" an entire planet, but they could easily kill off the planets muscle and then some.

 DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
They don't. Not by themselves.

Well, they probably could by themselves, but it would have to be at least 100,000

They would need 100 000 to conquer, but just 1000 cut out the primary targets; just 1000 to purge.

It would be a long and annoying fight for 1000 marines to actually "conquer" an entire planet, but they could easily kill off the planets muscle and then some.

True, and it would be a very long war

'Taking it was easy.. Holding it will be hard'

-Guardsman from Dawn of War

Sums it up nicely I think.

The Marines would use surgical strikes and guerilla tactics. Once all the world's leaders are dead and key infrastructure is in ruins, the planet won't last long, and most likely would have already surrendered before that point.
Once you have crippled the beast's legs and cut of its head, it is pretty much dead.
At that point the SM install a new leadership, and the IG moves in to garrison the planet.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The Marines would use surgical strikes and guerilla tactics. Once all the world's leaders are dead and key infrastructure is in ruins, the planet won't last long, and most likely would have already surrendered before that point.
Once you have crippled the beast's legs and cut of its head, it is pretty much dead.
At that point the SM install a new leadership, and the IG moves in to garrison the planet.

You can’t cut off a beast’s head if said beast has its head and neck buried in the dirt.

When was it agreed that modern small arms are equal to autoguns? Strength 3 weapons like lasguns are noted as blowing limbs off consistently. I thought m4s would be only strength 2.

 AdeptSister wrote:
When was it agreed that modern small arms are equal to autoguns? Strength 3 weapons like lasguns are noted as blowing limbs off consistently. I thought m4s would be only strength 2.

Read about an autogun on warhammer wikia or lexicanum and you'll see why.

And lasguns dont really blow limbs off, though they are significantly more powerful than an autogun.