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 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 AdeptSister wrote:
When was it agreed that modern small arms are equal to autoguns? Strength 3 weapons like lasguns are noted as blowing limbs off consistently. I thought m4s would be only strength 2.

Read about an autogun on warhammer wikia or lexicanum and you'll see why.

And lasguns dont really blow limbs off, though they are significantly more powerful than an autogun.

Oh no, Lasguns certainly blow limbs off, burn large cavities in targets, etc. 5.56 meanwhile just pings around the body and/or fragments, while 7.62 either goes clean through or tumbles and then goes clean through. Even Autoguns are much more powerful than modern arms consider the larger caliber than conventional rifles.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 AdeptSister wrote:
When was it agreed that modern small arms are equal to autoguns? Strength 3 weapons like lasguns are noted as blowing limbs off consistently. I thought m4s would be only strength 2.

Read about an autogun on warhammer wikia or lexicanum and you'll see why.

And lasguns dont really blow limbs off, though they are significantly more powerful than an autogun.

Oh no, Lasguns certainly blow limbs off, burn large cavities in targets, etc. 5.56 meanwhile just pings around the body and/or fragments, while 7.62 either goes clean through or tumbles and then goes clean through. Even Autoguns are much more powerful than modern arms consider the larger caliber than conventional rifles.

No offense, I don't believe las guns blow limbs off. If you could share a source I would appreciate it.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 AdeptSister wrote:
When was it agreed that modern small arms are equal to autoguns? Strength 3 weapons like lasguns are noted as blowing limbs off consistently. I thought m4s would be only strength 2.

Read about an autogun on warhammer wikia or lexicanum and you'll see why.

And lasguns dont really blow limbs off, though they are significantly more powerful than an autogun.

Oh no, Lasguns certainly blow limbs off, burn large cavities in targets, etc. 5.56 meanwhile just pings around the body and/or fragments, while 7.62 either goes clean through or tumbles and then goes clean through. Even Autoguns are much more powerful than modern arms consider the larger caliber than conventional rifles.

No offense, I don't believe las guns blow limbs off. If you could share a source I would appreciate it.

Laspistols

“Calliden came out of his mad, erotic trance. He plunged his hand inside his black tunic, noticing for the first time that it was wet through. Out came the laspistol. Calliden was unused to wielding weapons. It took him a moment or two to wrap his fist around the handgrip, release the safety, aim, and press the firing stud.

Steam bubbled all along the length of the laser beam as it hissed through the water. But it failed to reach Aegelica. Instead, it struck a fish, nearly a yard long, which at that moment had glided between them. The fish exploded as the water in its body turned to steam. Fragments of flesh, skin, and bone drifted to the sea bed.” / Eye of Terror, p.116 - **

Blows up a fish just short of a yard.

“A las-blast felled the armsman beside Semper. The captain grabbed the man as he fell, intending to drag him into the bay, but then found himself staring into the excavated crater of the man’s skull, where the las-shot had blown half his head away.” / Execution Hour, p.224 - **

Blew half a man's head off.

Lasguns

“Tarok slumped down behind the rock.

As the stones pattered to the ground, a Deathlight flashed the stunted bushes itno flame. Tarok sprang up and fired at the Brannath who had just given away his position. The man fell forward out of the bushes with a fist-wide, smoking hole punched through his body from front to back. Strange, thought Tarok, that there is no blood.

That thought almost cost him his life. He almost failed to notice the shadow sliding over the rocks behind and right of him. The rock glowed and began to melt as he dived away from the beam of the Deathlight. The Brannath was not quick enough with his second shot.” / Rogue Trader compendium, p.145 - **

Burns a fist-sized hole through somebody.

“‘Good.’ She aimed the lasgun and took the prone man’s head off with one shot. You’ll be next unless you do exactly, precisely what I tell you. Understand?’” / Faith and Fire, p.110 - **

Burns a head off. Might just have blown apart the neck, isn't specific.

“The older man sidestepped, so as not to risk hitting the girl. Then he blew the second chanter’s head into steam.” / Hammer and Bolter (#13), p.141 - **

Truly vaporizes a head.

“A las-shot skimmed his helmet, the kinetic force slapping the top of his head as if reminding him to keep behind cover.” / Flesh and Iron, p.281 - **

Las-shots carry kinetic force.

 Wyzilla wrote:

“A las-shot skimmed his helmet, the kinetic force slapping the top of his head as if reminding him to keep behind cover.” / Flesh and Iron, p.281 - **

Las-shots carry kinetic force.

I'm sorry but kinetic force just made me laugh. I assume the writer either meant kinetic energy or just plain old force.

Good catches on the Las damage stuff though.

Deathlights are a particularly punchy version of lasguns but, yeah, lasguns will mess you up real bad. The thermal energy imparted to the wound-site causes the blood and water in the surrounding tissue to suddenly convert to steam. This sudden increase in hydrostatic pressure causes the flesh to basically explode.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 AdeptSister wrote:
When was it agreed that modern small arms are equal to autoguns? Strength 3 weapons like lasguns are noted as blowing limbs off consistently. I thought m4s would be only strength 2.

Read about an autogun on warhammer wikia or lexicanum and you'll see why.

And lasguns dont really blow limbs off, though they are significantly more powerful than an autogun.

Oh no, Lasguns certainly blow limbs off, burn large cavities in targets, etc. 5.56 meanwhile just pings around the body and/or fragments, while 7.62 either goes clean through or tumbles and then goes clean through. Even Autoguns are much more powerful than modern arms consider the larger caliber than conventional rifles.

No offense, I don't believe las guns blow limbs off. If you could share a source I would appreciate it.

Laspistols

“Calliden came out of his mad, erotic trance. He plunged his hand inside his black tunic, noticing for the first time that it was wet through. Out came the laspistol. Calliden was unused to wielding weapons. It took him a moment or two to wrap his fist around the handgrip, release the safety, aim, and press the firing stud.

Steam bubbled all along the length of the laser beam as it hissed through the water. But it failed to reach Aegelica. Instead, it struck a fish, nearly a yard long, which at that moment had glided between them. The fish exploded as the water in its body turned to steam. Fragments of flesh, skin, and bone drifted to the sea bed.” / Eye of Terror, p.116 - **

Blows up a fish just short of a yard.

“A las-blast felled the armsman beside Semper. The captain grabbed the man as he fell, intending to drag him into the bay, but then found himself staring into the excavated crater of the man’s skull, where the las-shot had blown half his head away.” / Execution Hour, p.224 - **

Blew half a man's head off.

Lasguns

“Tarok slumped down behind the rock.

As the stones pattered to the ground, a Deathlight flashed the stunted bushes itno flame. Tarok sprang up and fired at the Brannath who had just given away his position. The man fell forward out of the bushes with a fist-wide, smoking hole punched through his body from front to back. Strange, thought Tarok, that there is no blood.

That thought almost cost him his life. He almost failed to notice the shadow sliding over the rocks behind and right of him. The rock glowed and began to melt as he dived away from the beam of the Deathlight. The Brannath was not quick enough with his second shot.” / Rogue Trader compendium, p.145 - **

Burns a fist-sized hole through somebody.

“‘Good.’ She aimed the lasgun and took the prone man’s head off with one shot. You’ll be next unless you do exactly, precisely what I tell you. Understand?’” / Faith and Fire, p.110 - **

Burns a head off. Might just have blown apart the neck, isn't specific.

“The older man sidestepped, so as not to risk hitting the girl. Then he blew the second chanter’s head into steam.” / Hammer and Bolter (#13), p.141 - **

Truly vaporizes a head.

“A las-shot skimmed his helmet, the kinetic force slapping the top of his head as if reminding him to keep behind cover.” / Flesh and Iron, p.281 - **

Las-shots carry kinetic force.

Hmm, I suppose so. They are absurdly weak in camparison to a bolter then.

I mean, lasguns are said to be like flashlights against PA which is ludicris considering what I just read.

 Psienesis wrote:
Deathlights are a particularly punchy version of lasguns but, yeah, lasguns will mess you up real bad. The thermal energy imparted to the wound-site causes the blood and water in the surrounding tissue to suddenly convert to steam. This sudden increase in hydrostatic pressure causes the flesh to basically explode.

Psienesis should be answering ALL of your questions from now on, especially the OP's thread's question.

 Psienesis wrote:
Deathlights are a particularly punchy version of lasguns but, yeah, lasguns will mess you up real bad. The thermal energy imparted to the wound-site causes the blood and water in the surrounding tissue to suddenly convert to steam. This sudden increase in hydrostatic pressure causes the flesh to basically explode.

Thanks for the scientifical explanation. *tips hat*

So once again, Lasguns are Str3 and will do incredible amounts of damage. How are we comparing them to our current assault rifles?

AdeptSister wrote:When was it agreed that modern small arms are equal to autoguns? Strength 3 weapons like lasguns are noted as blowing limbs off consistently. I thought m4s would be only strength 2.

AdeptSister wrote:So once again, Lasguns are Str3 and will do incredible amounts of damage. How are we comparing them to our current assault rifles?

S3 is a widely varied bracket.

After all, in all this discussion of the strength of rifles, you have to realise that a Guardsman punching you is also a S3 attack.

See I always interpreted the attack characteristic not so literally. A bolter or shuriken catapult does not fire only a few shots in the descriptions, so I always thought of the Strength of an attack to be representative of how much accurate damage something can do in this one section of time (maybe a few seconds). So a single melee 'attack' is guardsmen desperately trying to kill something in a few moments in time with everything s/he has got (point blank short bursts, stabbings, eye gouging, etc.) IMO, a trained soldier can do a lot of lethal damage in a few seconds.

Are the IG that well trained?

pm713 wrote:
Are the IG that well trained?

Depends on the regiment in question. Some are probably very well trained on close quarter drill while most have rudimentary training. It's not a necessary skill for a being that will fold like wet paper against most close combat oriented things.

Yes. IG or AM are supposed to be the best of a world's soldiers. Only the best (with the exception of conscripts) go to the Emperor's forces! It's just that in comparison with the deadliness of the 4th universe, everything else is better.

But Furyou Miko make a good point about Strength ranges: a d6 system has its limits.

pm713 wrote:
Are the IG that well trained?

The IG in general are pretty well trained. Many are very well trained indeed. Units like Kasrkin or Scions (stormtroopers) are essentially Space Marines without the genetic/biological enhancement, trained as harshly and thoroughly as a human body can handle. Death Korps guardsmen are highly trained in melee combat (as reflected by their WS4).

pm713 wrote:
Are the IG that well trained?

Don't forget that the ig are the best a planet has to offer. The ig sneer at the pdf. If a planetary governor provides sub standard recruits then he is clearly a heretic.

Also comparing 40k weapons to 2k weapons is dumb. Once you start applying real world physics to Ia particular part of a sci fI universe then everything starts to break down. xplain to me hhow in 38 thousand years that humans from millions of worlds are essentially the same as US now with no evolution. How are space ships and fighters flying through space as if it's earthy atmosphere.

Lasguns ( whilst being the basic low end weapon of the 40k universe) are better than our pitifully weapons because they just are. The emperors divine wisdom makes it so. The only thing comparable between a lasgun and an m4 is that it's a weapon for the rank and file because jack of all trades.

You need to take stuff in 40k with a pinch of salt. Try to generalise than get down and explain every point in super fine detail

it is fake, why are you trying to make sense of it, If GW makes it so that it can happen then it happens. It is all science fiction.

 AdeptSister wrote:
See I always interpreted the attack characteristic not so literally. A bolter or shuriken catapult does not fire only a few shots in the descriptions, so I always thought of the Strength of an attack to be representative of how much accurate damage something can do in this one section of time (maybe a few seconds). So a single melee 'attack' is guardsmen desperately trying to kill something in a few moments in time with everything s/he has got (point blank short bursts, stabbings, eye gouging, etc.) IMO, a trained soldier can do a lot of lethal damage in a few seconds.

Very good imagination. Something a lot of people lack.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The Marines would use surgical strikes and guerilla tactics. Once all the world's leaders are dead and key infrastructure is in ruins, the planet won't last long, and most likely would have already surrendered before that point.
Once you have crippled the beast's legs and cut of its head, it is pretty much dead.
At that point the SM install a new leadership, and the IG moves in to garrison the planet.

You can’t cut off a beast’s head if said beast has its head and neck buried in the dirt.

Sure you can. You only need access to the neck.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:


You are aware we are talking about 1000 Marines (at maximum) right?

It could be ten Marines. They'd still conquer a planet like ours as long as they had a single starship, As long as someone is piloting that ship we'd have no defense against tactical orbital bombardments.

Really, since when have navies conquered anything?

They can have 10 star ships and bomb the world for days. but it wont conquer the planet. Just be a pain in the butt. If anything its just adding to the huge stuff the guy who ordered the attack.

In the pacific the US navy would bombard islands for days before attacking. Did very little to actually hinder the enemy. They still needed to send in 10s of thousands of marines to actually conquer it.

Navies help win wars. They do not win them on their own.

Like most humans, we will quickly find a way to eliminate it. Also we are talking about the 40k universe which would be far better than ours in terms of defenses.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
A single chapter can conquer a planet the same way a single regiment or handful of regiments routinely do in the fluff.

It's almost as if Games Workshop has no sense of scale, or something. Focusing your anus-anger on only a single aspect of that failing (Space Marines) is silly.

Agreed, I always imagine hundreds of millions of men having to conquer planets in my fluff. If not more.

Yeah but, that was a few artillary and rocket runs. This is advanced plasma weaponry nukes and the best weapons we have ever seen firing down when we have no realistic defense. Star ships in 40k can take a nuke to the side and shrug it off like a moth trying to chew though power armour.

Marines don't conquer planets, the Imperium conquers planets.


You have your marines attacking specific locations, destroying the chain of command and similar targets of priority.

The Imperial Navy provide artillery and transport capacity, moving troops from place to place and flattening whole continents at the push of a button.

The Imperial Guard march in and capture the cities and keep the populace down.

You need at least all three in order to successfully conquer a planet. Marines might be superhuman, but throw enough poo at a wall and some of it will stick.

 welshhoppo wrote:
Marines don't conquer planets, the Imperium conquers planets.


You have your marines attacking specific locations, destroying the chain of command and similar targets of priority.

The Imperial Navy provide artillery and transport capacity, moving troops from place to place and flattening whole continents at the push of a button.

The Imperial Guard march in and capture the cities and keep the populace down.

You need at least all three in order to successfully conquer a planet. Marines might be superhuman, but throw enough poo at a wall and some of it will stick.

I disagree. IG don't 'need' Marines to conquer a planet, and vice versa. It's all about how many you are talking about.

Well that's why I said three. Marines would only come to attack planets which are extra tough or strategically important.

However if every marine landed on earth you would have one million marines. There are at least seven billion people on earth alone. That means that we outnumber the marines at least seven thousand to one. The land available on earth is 149 million km2. There are simply not enough marines to cover all of the earth at once. And that is not including anyone who wishes to live on the oceans.

 Swastakowey wrote:

I mean, can A space marine just ignore severed muscle in his arm joint if a piece of shrapnel got lodged in there? Of course not! Think about how muscle works! You cant shrug that kinda of common damage off, his arm will cease to work period. Let alone the severed artery's etc etc.

So please, humour me. Tell me how a Space Marine can beat us

The arm, unless the tendons gone, it will work. I've pulled 6" of steel out of mine, and given the finger to everyone, reached for a glass with the other hand. and i'm just a regular humie.

Ignatius. What granted the US control of the oil fields, afghan opium AIR SUPERIORITY.
You no longer have that. Thunder hawks which are based on the space shuttle. Drop from the sky faster than human's can handle.
Your planes have no vtol.

the ancient wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

I mean, can A space marine just ignore severed muscle in his arm joint if a piece of shrapnel got lodged in there? Of course not! Think about how muscle works! You cant shrug that kinda of common damage off, his arm will cease to work period. Let alone the severed artery's etc etc.

So please, humour me. Tell me how a Space Marine can beat us

The arm, unless the tendons gone, it will work. I've pulled 6" of steel out of mine, and given the finger to everyone, reached for a glass with the other hand. and i'm just a regular humie.

Ignatius. What granted the US control of the oil fields, afghan opium AIR SUPERIORITY.
You no longer have that. Thunder hawks which are based on the space shuttle. Drop from the sky faster than human's can handle.
Your planes have no vtol.

Not even that, the capital ship in orbit can crack goddamn continents, just drop a shot on every military base and the problem is solved.

the ancient wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

I mean, can A space marine just ignore severed muscle in his arm joint if a piece of shrapnel got lodged in there? Of course not! Think about how muscle works! You cant shrug that kinda of common damage off, his arm will cease to work period. Let alone the severed artery's etc etc.

So please, humour me. Tell me how a Space Marine can beat us

The arm, unless the tendons gone, it will work. I've pulled 6" of steel out of mine, and given the finger to everyone, reached for a glass with the other hand. and i'm just a regular humie.

Ignatius. What granted the US control of the oil fields, afghan opium AIR SUPERIORITY.
You no longer have that. Thunder hawks which are based on the space shuttle. Drop from the sky faster than human's can handle.
Your planes have no vtol.

SM's dont' exactly field large numbers of aircraft, with the recent additions of the Storm Talon/Storm Eagle/Storm Raven on top of the Thunderhawk, they may have 50-200 aircraft in a chapter (meanwhile the US air force alone fields 1600 fighter aircraft, not counting ground attack planes or other types of aircraft or other branches, much less other nations), something like a Thunderhawk (or Storm Raven) isn't exactly an air superiority craft and could be easily targeted and engaged from beyond the horizon by modern fighter aircraft and anti-aircraft systems (and which has never been mentioned as a capability of the Thunderhawk)

With regards to speed, no, they're not faster than anything we can handle, we have GW and FW's stated numbers for a Thunderhawk's maxmimum speed, which is about ~2,000 km/h according to White Dwarf and Imperial Armour Volume II. The F-4 Phantom, which first flew in 1958, was capable of exceeding that and engaging targets at such speeds, as are all fighter aircraft since then. Meanwhile, there are thousands of attack helicopters which, by nature, are capable of VTOL flight, not to mention aircraft like the AV-8 Harrier which remains in service in not insubstantial numbers, and (maybe soon possibly?) the F-35.

Not to mention the fact that the Thunderhawk, as designed, would probably be incapable of controlled, sustained flight given that it shares most of the same aerodynamic qualities of a brick, and even if it could, would be the biggest radar target in existence.

So, we're talking exceedingly small numbers of aircraft, which are primarily ground attack and infantry transport aircraft, which fly well within modern engagement speeds.


Ultimately, 40k is a fantasy universe, it isn't really "science fiction", it's Knights and Dragons and Goblins with a Starship Troopers texture pack. From any sort of realistic perspective, given the figures and stats published by GW, it falls apart very rapidly once analyzed.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Not even that, the capital ship in orbit can crack goddamn continents, just drop a shot on every military base and the problem is solved.

How do they know where all these military bases are? We're also not talking about just a couple dozen targets, we're talking about tens of thousands of facilities across the planet. And this is assuming the ship isn't in low orbit where thousands of ground based nuclear missiles could be brought to bear against it.

If only they had some kind of scanner and the ability to read minds......wait.

pm713 wrote:
If only they had some kind of scanner and the ability to read minds......wait.

And they've got to know where to find the who that knows the what, and do so without getting splattered in the process.

I wouldve thought you just scan peoples brains for leaders and then scan their brain and so on or just bombard entire continents as you arrive.

 Vaktathi wrote:

pm713 wrote:
If only they had some kind of scanner and the ability to read minds......wait.

And they've got to know where to find the who that knows the what, and do so without getting splattered in the process.

Ok, you are a broken record by now.

Look, SM's have detection methods and radar technology you cant comprehend. They can hack into our defense mainframes, hack into our networks and and litterally jack our satellites.

With our networks seized they will scan all military assets worldwide, expunge any information they want while at the same time downloading anything they need. They will find out our most advanced weapons and technology, how much of each piece of technology we possess, uncover classified military operations and more. With collected information they will use our very own satellites to locate anything they please. They will assess military outposts, research facilities and command structures worldwide. After enough information has been collected they will commence negotiations, which...we will assume fail considering Earth isnt going to worship an Emperor they've never heard of or met.

SM's will drop continental bombs, ravaging every continent on planet earth. After which 1,000 fully armed and armored superhumans will strike at the most valuable enemy positions, eliminating enemy command structures one by one. They will strike faster than lightning and hit harder than an earthquake before being picked up to be resupplied and deployed to their next location... So forget about getting armored devisions and infantry regiments in any kind of tactically sound manoeuvres.

The SM's will also have the advantage of the enemy having no idea where they will be hit next. Considering their are 7 dazzled continents with no sense of direction.

It will be long fight but they will most likely win with psychological warfare.