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Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Like I have said, 98,000 human soldiers will die to a SM chapter, as I have calculated.

Regular SM = 100
Sergeant = 150
Scout = 20 (calculated with the sum of 100 scouts)
Captain = 200
What do these numbers mean exactly? How much each is worth in normal human troops?

That's fairly arbitrary. Rogal Dorn himself estimated only 10:1, not 100:1. That said, even then, lets use these numbers (and not yet get into how it's not soldier-on-soldier contact is what causes most casualties, but artillery and crew served weapons).


Now think about how many humans would be able to fight on a standard civilized world. Probably 8 billion inhabitants but lets say there are 25 million trained soldiers.
Probably a good estimation.


SM's attack the most vital and strategic enemy positions so those 98,000 dead humans will be the result of those destroyed positons (enemy command sructures, heretical religious leaders, weapon depots, communications arrays, ect.)
How do they know what are the most vital and strategic positions, and how do they know where they are? Also, why are they so apparently vulnerable to immediate attack? Do none of them have anti-orbital defenses, fortified positions, detection and alarm systems, ready-5 fighters, etc?


This is where the IG come into play. If a dozen regiments of IG are present they can do battle with the enemy military and after the SM's complete what I explained above then the enemy will probably just surrender in a matter of a few years.
Right, but that's not just the SM's doing it themselves, but yes would be a far more realistic battle plan.

That said, as often happens with the SM's, the numbers of IG needed would need to be larger as well (GW also historically has had hilariously small numbers of IG for supposedly humongous battles until the last couple of editions when they finally realized their numbers were bunk). An average IG regiment is 5-10 thousand men strong, lets say a dozen regiments gets you 100,000 dudes, that's still not going to match 25 million. Normally an attacker will want a 3-1 advantage to ensure victory, but even assuming we're gonna do this with the attackers outnumbered 2-1, you'd need an average of nearly 1,600 IG regiments instead of a more ideal ~9,300 regiments.

GW often isn't very good with numbers in general

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





Vero Beach, Florida

 Vaktathi wrote:
 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Like I have said, 98,000 human soldiers will die to a SM chapter, as I have calculated.

Regular SM = 100
Sergeant = 150
Scout = 20 (calculated with the sum of 100 scouts)
Captain = 200
What do these numbers mean exactly? How much each is worth in normal human troops?

That's fairly arbitrary. Rogal Dorn himself estimated only 10:1, not 100:1. That said, even then, lets use these numbers (and not yet get into how it's not soldier-on-soldier contact is what causes most casualties, but artillery and crew served weapons).


Now think about how many humans would be able to fight on a standard civilized world. Probably 8 billion inhabitants but lets say there are 25 million trained soldiers.
Probably a good estimation.


SM's attack the most vital and strategic enemy positions so those 98,000 dead humans will be the result of those destroyed positons (enemy command sructures, heretical religious leaders, weapon depots, communications arrays, ect.)
How do they know what are the most vital and strategic positions, and how do they know where they are? Also, why are they so apparently vulnerable to immediate attack? Do none of them have anti-orbital defenses, fortified positions, detection and alarm systems, ready-5 fighters, etc?


This is where the IG come into play. If a dozen regiments of IG are present they can do battle with the enemy military and after the SM's complete what I explained above then the enemy will probably just surrender in a matter of a few years.
Right, but that's not just the SM's doing it themselves, but yes would be a far more realistic battle plan.

That said, as often happens with the SM's, the numbers of IG needed would need to be larger as well (GW also historically has had hilariously small numbers of IG for supposedly humongous battles until the last couple of editions when they finally realized their numbers were bunk). An average IG regiment is 5-10 thousand men strong, lets say a dozen regiments gets you 100,000 dudes, that's still not going to match 25 million. Normally an attacker will want a 3-1 advantage to ensure victory, but even assuming we're gonna do this with the attackers outnumbered 2-1, you'd need an average of nearly 1,600 IG regiments instead of a more ideal ~9,300 regiments.

GW often isn't very good with numbers in general

Well, the SM's wouldn 't know where all the strategic positions are at first. They need to execute probe strikes and experiment with the enemy for a a year or two. The IG will probably be responsible for that all that stuff, with trained IG generals and commanders relaying battlefield knowledge.

Annnnd, perhaps you are right, I forgot about that. Lets say 30 million IG troops, and that is the absolute least for planetary invasion. I would be safe with 50 million but 30 is the least.

"Glory to the Iron father!"


 
   
Made in se
Glorious Lord of Chaos






The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer

Rogal Dorn estimating 10:1 is a very overvalued quote. I doubt that the quote was the result of an organised research, rather, it just seems to be an arbitrary number to indicate their superior quality. I'd even argue SM were much less effective during the great crusade. They are best at focused strikes, spamming them everywhere incurs diminishing returns.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/04 00:15:19


Currently ongoing projects:
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Made in gb
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Glasgow, Scotland

Space Marines strike forces hit like a hurricane. They smash through enemy defences before the guards can get out of bed. They are led by the bravest heroes humanity has ever known, with tactics that our tiny human minds couldn't comprehend the designs. Each Astartes cares naught for his own survival, only duty, and with his genetic and armour enhancements, can stride through weapons fire that would rip a mortal man in half, without breaking courage nor formation. They can carry weapons into battle a human could not budge, they are stronger, faster, tougher, smarter. They can tear a man apart with one hand. Their swords don't just kill their enemies, they shred them apart and fling the pieces and blood on their fellows. Led by Astartes who can fry a battle tank with a thought, or grim, skullmasked Chaplains, who don't fight in silence, but roar out their hate, their devotion, their feats, their courage. Whose weapons are thrice the calibre of yours, armour harder than diamond. They fight with a skill and speed you can't match. Their tanks can bring down buildings in a single shot. Their transports can withstand almost any firepower, disgorging a squad of Terminators. Even more invulnerable, heavier weaponry, than regular Marines. Striking like a thunderclap from orbit in the middle of your encampment/city/fortress.
Ideally, the strike force will have broken the garrison, either morale or militarily, and moved on to the next objective within 30mins tops. They get picked up by Thunderhawk, laden with weaponry again, several Heavy Bolters (twice your largest MG calibre in wide use [.50]), fething Las(er)cannons, WMD cannons (Turbo Laser). They show no fear, no remorse, no pity for you as their foe. They are called the Angels of Death. They have been designed by a God-Emperor, genetically engineered to be the ultimate soldier, and they are knocking at your front door, asking for your surrender or your head.

Would YOU stand against them?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/07/04 00:42:27


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Made in se
Glorious Lord of Chaos






The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer

Since when are bolters only thrice the caliber of IG weapons?

Their shells are 'fist-sized' as far as I have read, which is a damn sight more than 0,75.

Currently ongoing projects:
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Made in us
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard




Catskills in NYS

Bolters are 0.50 calbre, I'm not sure about heavy, probably 0.75 or 1.0.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Deadshot wrote:
Space Marines strike forces hit like a hurricane. They smash through enemy defences before the guards can get out of bed. They are led by the bravest heroes humanity has ever known, with tactics that our tiny human minds couldn't comprehend the designs. Each Astartes cares naught for his own survival, only duty, and with his genetic and armour enhancements, can stride through weapons fire that would rip a mortal man in half, without breaking courage nor formation. They can carry weapons into battle a human could not budge, they are stronger, faster, tougher, smarter. They can tear a man apart with one hand. Their swords don't just kill their enemies, they shred them apart and fling the pieces and blood on their fellows. Led by Astartes who can fry a battle tank with a thought, or grim, skullmasked Chaplains, who don't fight in silence, but roar out their hate, their devotion, their feats, their courage. Whose weapons are thrice the calibre of yours, armour harder than diamond. They fight with a skill and speed you can't match. Their tanks can bring down buildings in a single shot. Their transports can withstand almost any firepower, disgorging a squad of Terminators. Even more invulnerable, heavier weaponry, than regular Marines. Striking like a thunderclap from orbit in the middle of your encampment/city/fortress.
Ideally, the strike force will have broken the garrison, either morale or militarily, and moved on to the next objective within 30mins tops. They get picked up by Thunderhawk, laden with weaponry again, several Heavy Bolters (twice your largest MG calibre in wide use [.50]), fething Las(er)cannons, WMD cannons (Turbo Laser). They show no fear, no remorse, no pity for you as their foe. They are called the Angels of Death. They have been designed by a God-Emperor, genetically engineered to be the ultimate soldier, and they are knocking at your front door, asking for your surrender or your head.

Would YOU stand against them?

Yes, just a few miles away .

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/04 00:59:08


Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
 kronk wrote:
Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





Vero Beach, Florida

 Ashiraya wrote:
Since when are bolters only thrice the caliber of IG weapons?

Their shells are 'fist-sized' as far as I have read, which is a damn sight more than 0,75.

Any human hit in the chest by a boltgun doesn't have a chest anymore haha

Heavy bolter rounds are actually fist sized but regular boltguns aren't really that much smaller. I mean, not to many humans can survive a single bolt round. A human inside of one of the HH heresy books I read was hit in the leg and lost it. He died of shock right when he hit the ground.


"Glory to the Iron father!"


 
   
Made in us
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard




Catskills in NYS

The thing about bolters is, it's not the size of the projectile, it's the fact that it explodes.

Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
 kronk wrote:
Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





Vero Beach, Florida

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
The thing about bolters is, it's not the size of the projectile, it's the fact that it explodes.

Exactly, exactly.

"Glory to the Iron father!"


 
   
Made in gb
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Glasgow, Scotland

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Bolters are 0.50 calbre, I'm not sure about heavy, probably 0.75 or 1.0.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Deadshot wrote:
Space Marines strike forces hit like a hurricane. They smash through enemy defences before the guards can get out of bed. They are led by the bravest heroes humanity has ever known, with tactics that our tiny human minds couldn't comprehend the designs. Each Astartes cares naught for his own survival, only duty, and with his genetic and armour enhancements, can stride through weapons fire that would rip a mortal man in half, without breaking courage nor formation. They can carry weapons into battle a human could not budge, they are stronger, faster, tougher, smarter. They can tear a man apart with one hand. Their swords don't just kill their enemies, they shred them apart and fling the pieces and blood on their fellows. Led by Astartes who can fry a battle tank with a thought, or grim, skullmasked Chaplains, who don't fight in silence, but roar out their hate, their devotion, their feats, their courage. Whose weapons are thrice the calibre of yours, armour harder than diamond. They fight with a skill and speed you can't match. Their tanks can bring down buildings in a single shot. Their transports can withstand almost any firepower, disgorging a squad of Terminators. Even more invulnerable, heavier weaponry, than regular Marines. Striking like a thunderclap from orbit in the middle of your encampment/city/fortress.
Ideally, the strike force will have broken the garrison, either morale or militarily, and moved on to the next objective within 30mins tops. They get picked up by Thunderhawk, laden with weaponry again, several Heavy Bolters (twice your largest MG calibre in wide use [.50]), fething Las(er)cannons, WMD cannons (Turbo Laser). They show no fear, no remorse, no pity for you as their foe. They are called the Angels of Death. They have been designed by a God-Emperor, genetically engineered to be the ultimate soldier, and they are knocking at your front door, asking for your surrender or your head.

Would YOU stand against them?

Yes, just a few miles away .


Read it again. They fight on their terms. They use Drop Pods and Thunderhawk to deploy where they want, when they want. They strike when they want, where they want. Their tactics so advanced that it would boggle your tiny little human mind trying to concieve such an idea. You don't get to stand a mile away. They land next to you and put their fist through you.

Btw, the "tiny human mind" part isn't a personal insult. It applies to all humans, myself included. Their tactics are just too much for a lesser mind than an Astartes can grasp.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Bolters are 0.75cal, HB are 1.00

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/04 01:14:18


I'm celebrating 8 years on Dakka Dakka!
I started an Instagram! Follow me at Deadshot Miniatures!
DR:90+S++G+++M+B+IPw40k08#-D+++A+++/cwd363R+++T(Ot)DM+
Check out my Deathwatch story, Aftermath in the fiction section!

Credit to Castiel for banner. Thanks Cas!
 
   
Made in us
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard




Catskills in NYS

 Deadshot wrote:
 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Bolters are 0.50 calbre, I'm not sure about heavy, probably 0.75 or 1.0.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Deadshot wrote:
Space Marines strike forces hit like a hurricane. They smash through enemy defences before the guards can get out of bed. They are led by the bravest heroes humanity has ever known, with tactics that our tiny human minds couldn't comprehend the designs. Each Astartes cares naught for his own survival, only duty, and with his genetic and armour enhancements, can stride through weapons fire that would rip a mortal man in half, without breaking courage nor formation. They can carry weapons into battle a human could not budge, they are stronger, faster, tougher, smarter. They can tear a man apart with one hand. Their swords don't just kill their enemies, they shred them apart and fling the pieces and blood on their fellows. Led by Astartes who can fry a battle tank with a thought, or grim, skullmasked Chaplains, who don't fight in silence, but roar out their hate, their devotion, their feats, their courage. Whose weapons are thrice the calibre of yours, armour harder than diamond. They fight with a skill and speed you can't match. Their tanks can bring down buildings in a single shot. Their transports can withstand almost any firepower, disgorging a squad of Terminators. Even more invulnerable, heavier weaponry, than regular Marines. Striking like a thunderclap from orbit in the middle of your encampment/city/fortress.
Ideally, the strike force will have broken the garrison, either morale or militarily, and moved on to the next objective within 30mins tops. They get picked up by Thunderhawk, laden with weaponry again, several Heavy Bolters (twice your largest MG calibre in wide use [.50]), fething Las(er)cannons, WMD cannons (Turbo Laser). They show no fear, no remorse, no pity for you as their foe. They are called the Angels of Death. They have been designed by a God-Emperor, genetically engineered to be the ultimate soldier, and they are knocking at your front door, asking for your surrender or your head.

Would YOU stand against them?

Yes, just a few miles away .


Read it again. They fight on their terms. They use Drop Pods and Thunderhawk to deploy where they want, when they want. They strike when they want, where they want. Their tactics so advanced that it would boggle your tiny little human mind trying to concieve such an idea. You don't get to stand a mile away. They land next to you and put their fist through you.

Btw, the "tiny human mind" part isn't a personal insult. It applies to all humans, myself included. Their tactics are just too much for a lesser mind than an Astartes can grasp.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Bolters are 0.75cal, HB are 1.00


First, the reply was a joke (as noted by the " "). And second, their tactics are not that advanced. It's just fast strikes and hit-and-run mostly.

Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
 kronk wrote:
Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Bolters are 0.50 calbre, I'm not sure about heavy, probably 0.75 or 1.0.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Deadshot wrote:
Space Marines strike forces hit like a hurricane. They smash through enemy defences before the guards can get out of bed. They are led by the bravest heroes humanity has ever known, with tactics that our tiny human minds couldn't comprehend the designs. Each Astartes cares naught for his own survival, only duty, and with his genetic and armour enhancements, can stride through weapons fire that would rip a mortal man in half, without breaking courage nor formation. They can carry weapons into battle a human could not budge, they are stronger, faster, tougher, smarter. They can tear a man apart with one hand. Their swords don't just kill their enemies, they shred them apart and fling the pieces and blood on their fellows. Led by Astartes who can fry a battle tank with a thought, or grim, skullmasked Chaplains, who don't fight in silence, but roar out their hate, their devotion, their feats, their courage. Whose weapons are thrice the calibre of yours, armour harder than diamond. They fight with a skill and speed you can't match. Their tanks can bring down buildings in a single shot. Their transports can withstand almost any firepower, disgorging a squad of Terminators. Even more invulnerable, heavier weaponry, than regular Marines. Striking like a thunderclap from orbit in the middle of your encampment/city/fortress.
Ideally, the strike force will have broken the garrison, either morale or militarily, and moved on to the next objective within 30mins tops. They get picked up by Thunderhawk, laden with weaponry again, several Heavy Bolters (twice your largest MG calibre in wide use [.50]), fething Las(er)cannons, WMD cannons (Turbo Laser). They show no fear, no remorse, no pity for you as their foe. They are called the Angels of Death. They have been designed by a God-Emperor, genetically engineered to be the ultimate soldier, and they are knocking at your front door, asking for your surrender or your head.

Would YOU stand against them?

Yes, just a few miles away .


What rock have you been living under? Bolters are .75 caliber standard. Heavy Bolters fire 1.00 caliber rounds.

“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
 
   
Made in us
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard




Catskills in NYS

 Wyzilla wrote:
 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Bolters are 0.50 calbre, I'm not sure about heavy, probably 0.75 or 1.0.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Deadshot wrote:
Space Marines strike forces hit like a hurricane. They smash through enemy defences before the guards can get out of bed. They are led by the bravest heroes humanity has ever known, with tactics that our tiny human minds couldn't comprehend the designs. Each Astartes cares naught for his own survival, only duty, and with his genetic and armour enhancements, can stride through weapons fire that would rip a mortal man in half, without breaking courage nor formation. They can carry weapons into battle a human could not budge, they are stronger, faster, tougher, smarter. They can tear a man apart with one hand. Their swords don't just kill their enemies, they shred them apart and fling the pieces and blood on their fellows. Led by Astartes who can fry a battle tank with a thought, or grim, skullmasked Chaplains, who don't fight in silence, but roar out their hate, their devotion, their feats, their courage. Whose weapons are thrice the calibre of yours, armour harder than diamond. They fight with a skill and speed you can't match. Their tanks can bring down buildings in a single shot. Their transports can withstand almost any firepower, disgorging a squad of Terminators. Even more invulnerable, heavier weaponry, than regular Marines. Striking like a thunderclap from orbit in the middle of your encampment/city/fortress.
Ideally, the strike force will have broken the garrison, either morale or militarily, and moved on to the next objective within 30mins tops. They get picked up by Thunderhawk, laden with weaponry again, several Heavy Bolters (twice your largest MG calibre in wide use [.50]), fething Las(er)cannons, WMD cannons (Turbo Laser). They show no fear, no remorse, no pity for you as their foe. They are called the Angels of Death. They have been designed by a God-Emperor, genetically engineered to be the ultimate soldier, and they are knocking at your front door, asking for your surrender or your head.

Would YOU stand against them?

Yes, just a few miles away .


What rock have you been living under? Bolters are .75 caliber standard. Heavy Bolters fire 1.00 caliber rounds.

No need to be rude. I mis-remembered. It happens to everybody.

Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
 kronk wrote:
Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





 Co'tor Shas wrote:
 Wyzilla wrote:
 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Bolters are 0.50 calbre, I'm not sure about heavy, probably 0.75 or 1.0.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Deadshot wrote:
Space Marines strike forces hit like a hurricane. They smash through enemy defences before the guards can get out of bed. They are led by the bravest heroes humanity has ever known, with tactics that our tiny human minds couldn't comprehend the designs. Each Astartes cares naught for his own survival, only duty, and with his genetic and armour enhancements, can stride through weapons fire that would rip a mortal man in half, without breaking courage nor formation. They can carry weapons into battle a human could not budge, they are stronger, faster, tougher, smarter. They can tear a man apart with one hand. Their swords don't just kill their enemies, they shred them apart and fling the pieces and blood on their fellows. Led by Astartes who can fry a battle tank with a thought, or grim, skullmasked Chaplains, who don't fight in silence, but roar out their hate, their devotion, their feats, their courage. Whose weapons are thrice the calibre of yours, armour harder than diamond. They fight with a skill and speed you can't match. Their tanks can bring down buildings in a single shot. Their transports can withstand almost any firepower, disgorging a squad of Terminators. Even more invulnerable, heavier weaponry, than regular Marines. Striking like a thunderclap from orbit in the middle of your encampment/city/fortress.
Ideally, the strike force will have broken the garrison, either morale or militarily, and moved on to the next objective within 30mins tops. They get picked up by Thunderhawk, laden with weaponry again, several Heavy Bolters (twice your largest MG calibre in wide use [.50]), fething Las(er)cannons, WMD cannons (Turbo Laser). They show no fear, no remorse, no pity for you as their foe. They are called the Angels of Death. They have been designed by a God-Emperor, genetically engineered to be the ultimate soldier, and they are knocking at your front door, asking for your surrender or your head.

Would YOU stand against them?

Yes, just a few miles away .


What rock have you been living under? Bolters are .75 caliber standard. Heavy Bolters fire 1.00 caliber rounds.

No need to be rude. I mis-remembered. It happens to everybody.


I know, but .75 bolts are mentioned so often in the fluff, FFG stuff, and Lexicanum that it's almost ham-fisted. Forgetfulness induced by information overload?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/04 01:35:44


“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
 
   
Made in us
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard




Catskills in NYS

No, forgetfulness induced by forgetfulness. And possibly lack of sleep.

Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
 kronk wrote:
Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
Made in gb
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Glasgow, Scotland

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
 Deadshot wrote:
 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Bolters are 0.50 calbre, I'm not sure about heavy, probably 0.75 or 1.0.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Deadshot wrote:
Space Marines strike forces hit like a hurricane. They smash through enemy defences before the guards can get out of bed. They are led by the bravest heroes humanity has ever known, with tactics that our tiny human minds couldn't comprehend the designs. Each Astartes cares naught for his own survival, only duty, and with his genetic and armour enhancements, can stride through weapons fire that would rip a mortal man in half, without breaking courage nor formation. They can carry weapons into battle a human could not budge, they are stronger, faster, tougher, smarter. They can tear a man apart with one hand. Their swords don't just kill their enemies, they shred them apart and fling the pieces and blood on their fellows. Led by Astartes who can fry a battle tank with a thought, or grim, skullmasked Chaplains, who don't fight in silence, but roar out their hate, their devotion, their feats, their courage. Whose weapons are thrice the calibre of yours, armour harder than diamond. They fight with a skill and speed you can't match. Their tanks can bring down buildings in a single shot. Their transports can withstand almost any firepower, disgorging a squad of Terminators. Even more invulnerable, heavier weaponry, than regular Marines. Striking like a thunderclap from orbit in the middle of your encampment/city/fortress.
Ideally, the strike force will have broken the garrison, either morale or militarily, and moved on to the next objective within 30mins tops. They get picked up by Thunderhawk, laden with weaponry again, several Heavy Bolters (twice your largest MG calibre in wide use [.50]), fething Las(er)cannons, WMD cannons (Turbo Laser). They show no fear, no remorse, no pity for you as their foe. They are called the Angels of Death. They have been designed by a God-Emperor, genetically engineered to be the ultimate soldier, and they are knocking at your front door, asking for your surrender or your head.

Would YOU stand against them?

Yes, just a few miles away .


Read it again. They fight on their terms. They use Drop Pods and Thunderhawk to deploy where they want, when they want. They strike when they want, where they want. Their tactics so advanced that it would boggle your tiny little human mind trying to concieve such an idea. You don't get to stand a mile away. They land next to you and put their fist through you.

Btw, the "tiny human mind" part isn't a personal insult. It applies to all humans, myself included. Their tactics are just too much for a lesser mind than an Astartes can grasp.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Bolters are 0.75cal, HB are 1.00


First, the reply was a joke (as noted by the " "). And second, their tactics are not that advanced. It's just fast strikes and hit-and-run mostly.



Sorry about that man. I'm really sorry, just having a real bad time of it tonight. Bad moods and Dakka don't go well together.

Anyway, hopefully I can remain in a good enough humour to not get a ban or something.
Yes, at a basic level, lightning strikes and hit and run. But that's just a general idea. The intricacies of the plan go far beyond that. The fluff constantly references their tactical skill (some more than others *coughSmurfscough*). The Captain knows each warrior personally. They are brothers, and he must, as a requirement for Captaincy ass laid out by the Codex Astartes, be able to use each and each warrior, tank and bullet in his strike force like an extension of his own being. His tactical acumen can be nothing short of genius. And think of some of the Chapter Masters like Dante or Calgar, who's skill at such things is almost unrivaled in the Imperium.

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"Strategic positions," great. Have you ever thought about what a military is for?

Say there are a group of savages, and one day they start sowing fields of grains, setting up breweries and granaries, and building houses. They start to specialize their vocations, and build blacksmiths, carpenters and extractive industries. They like these things so much and invest so much time in them that they create corps of armed men to make sure no mischief comes to their fields and breweries and mines and places of devotion and recreation.

Space marines do not care about "strategic locations" or "leadership structures." The entire point of marines is that you don't need very many of them. When the troops of opposing armies are evenly matched, they have to care about "strategic locations" because it is hard to move 100k of troops in to do anything to a city. When you are space marines, you can destroy the basic structures of a society. When soldiers don't have boots, they can't march, when they don't have food they go home to take care of their families, and when their families do not have food they take to the woods and then they don't have a society anymore, they are just vagrants with no temples, no halls of governance, no factories or training yards.
   
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 Ashiraya wrote:
Since when are bolters only thrice the caliber of IG weapons?

Their shells are 'fist-sized' as far as I have read, which is a damn sight more than 0,75.
Wat? Methinks not.

My fist is a little over 4" wide, nearly 5" if you include the thumb. Pretty standard for an average human male. Want to know what kind of weapons have a projectile between 4" and 5" wide?

this, this, and this . If you're feeling old school, maybe something like this. Even these aren't quite 4" across.

No, 0.75 caliber has been pretty standard since...basically forever, with Heavy Bolters IIRC being 1.0 caliber (~25-26mm) weapons. They're certainly not fist sized projectiles. At that point it's no longer an anti-personnel weapon, and the ability to carry a sufficient amount of ammunition would be very limited indeed (as would magazine sizes).

 Deadshot wrote:
Space Marines strike forces hit like a hurricane. They smash through enemy defences before the guards can get out of bed. They are led by the bravest heroes humanity has ever known, with tactics that our tiny human minds couldn't comprehend the designs. Each Astartes cares naught for his own survival, only duty, and with his genetic and armour enhancements, can stride through weapons fire that would rip a mortal man in half, without breaking courage nor formation. They can carry weapons into battle a human could not budge, they are stronger, faster, tougher, smarter. They can tear a man apart with one hand. Their swords don't just kill their enemies, they shred them apart and fling the pieces and blood on their fellows. Led by Astartes who can fry a battle tank with a thought, or grim, skullmasked Chaplains, who don't fight in silence, but roar out their hate, their devotion, their feats, their courage. Whose weapons are thrice the calibre of yours, armour harder than diamond. They fight with a skill and speed you can't match. Their tanks can bring down buildings in a single shot. Their transports can withstand almost any firepower, disgorging a squad of Terminators. Even more invulnerable, heavier weaponry, than regular Marines. Striking like a thunderclap from orbit in the middle of your encampment/city/fortress.
Ideally, the strike force will have broken the garrison, either morale or militarily, and moved on to the next objective within 30mins tops. They get picked up by Thunderhawk, laden with weaponry again, several Heavy Bolters (twice your largest MG calibre in wide use [.50]), fething Las(er)cannons, WMD cannons (Turbo Laser). They show no fear, no remorse, no pity for you as their foe. They are called the Angels of Death. They have been designed by a God-Emperor, genetically engineered to be the ultimate soldier, and they are knocking at your front door, asking for your surrender or your head.

Would YOU stand against them?
There's a lot of scary sounding words there, but relatively little in the way of concrete specifics, and not all of that is unique to them (e.g. their tanks are actually largely fairly weeny relative to those used by IG and PDF forces....)

And what happens when they're faced with an enemy that has a half-way effective anti-aircraft system and any sort of air fleet of their own, can bring down artillery on their landing zones, and that doesn't have a simple, easy to find command center that's so vital nothing else can operate without it?




I wouldn't want to have to fight them at close quarters, but as an enemy commander, I'd take my chances.



 Deadshot wrote:


Read it again. They fight on their terms. They use Drop Pods and Thunderhawk to deploy where they want, when they want.
Assuming they know where the enemy is, that the enemy lacks anti-aircraft and anti-orbital defenses, etc. Otherwise that sorta goes *poof*.

A great example is the Citadel of Vraks. The Space Marines wouldn't touch it, no appeal to aid to the Astartes was answered until battle had already been joined and the Imperial Guard had had siege lines engaged for years. And even then, when the Dark Angels showed up, they didn't go anywhere near the Citadel or the main battle lines, they came in, smashed the spaceport, with nearly a fifth of the chapter dying and more wounded, and left. It wasn't until much later that significant SM forces arrived and after the vast majority of the defensive lines had been broken.

They strike when they want, where they want.
Provided they somehow magically know where an opponents weak/vital areas are, and that they lack anti-orbital and anti-aircraft systems or any way to retaliate against a landing zone (e.g. with artillery).

Their tactics so advanced that it would boggle your tiny little human mind trying to concieve such an idea.
I've been pretty able to comprehend every battle I've ever read that described any sort of Space Marine presence. Most of it involves kicking the front door down (literally or figuratively), yelling "For the Emperor!", and shooting stuff at close ranges.

You don't get to stand a mile away. They land next to you and put their fist through you.
Again, provided the above...


Btw, the "tiny human mind" part isn't a personal insult. It applies to all humans, myself included. Their tactics are just too much for a lesser mind than an Astartes can grasp.
Care to share an example of such battle tactics?


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 Vaktathi wrote:
 Ashiraya wrote:
Since when are bolters only thrice the caliber of IG weapons?

Their shells are 'fist-sized' as far as I have read, which is a damn sight more than 0,75.
Wat? Methinks not.

My fist is a little over 4" wide, nearly 5" if you include the thumb. Pretty standard for an average human male. Want to know what kind of weapons have a projectile between 4" and 5" wide?

this, this, and this . If you're feeling old school, maybe something like this. Even these aren't quite 4" across.

No, 0.75 caliber has been pretty standard since...basically forever, with Heavy Bolters IIRC being 1.0 caliber (~25-26mm) weapons. They're certainly not fist sized projectiles. At that point it's no longer an anti-personnel weapon, and the ability to carry a sufficient amount of ammunition would be very limited indeed (as would magazine sizes).


Pg.21 Deus Encarmine wrote:“His gun clattered, the barrel spitting hot as rounds big as fists tore into the foe.”


:|

It won't allow the Marine to carry unlimited shells, sure, but depending on which size interpretation of Marines you choose, they can very well carry enough for a protracted engagement- especially since rounds of that caliber will be one-shot kills, if not one-shot-multi-kills.

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 Ashiraya wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
 Ashiraya wrote:
Since when are bolters only thrice the caliber of IG weapons?

Their shells are 'fist-sized' as far as I have read, which is a damn sight more than 0,75.
Wat? Methinks not.

My fist is a little over 4" wide, nearly 5" if you include the thumb. Pretty standard for an average human male. Want to know what kind of weapons have a projectile between 4" and 5" wide?

this, this, and this . If you're feeling old school, maybe something like this. Even these aren't quite 4" across.

No, 0.75 caliber has been pretty standard since...basically forever, with Heavy Bolters IIRC being 1.0 caliber (~25-26mm) weapons. They're certainly not fist sized projectiles. At that point it's no longer an anti-personnel weapon, and the ability to carry a sufficient amount of ammunition would be very limited indeed (as would magazine sizes).


Pg.21 Deus Encarmine wrote:“His gun clattered, the barrel spitting hot as rounds big as fists tore into the foe.”


:|

It won't allow the Marine to carry unlimited shells, sure, but depending on which size interpretation of Marines you choose, they can very well carry enough for a protracted engagement- especially since rounds of that caliber will be one-shot kills, if not one-shot-multi-kills.


That's one quote. With which practically the entirety of the Black Library, FFG, and GW disagrees with.

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On moon miranda.

 Ashiraya wrote:


Pg.21 Deus Encarmine wrote:“His gun clattered, the barrel spitting hot as rounds big as fists tore into the foe.”


:|

It won't allow the Marine to carry unlimited shells, sure, but depending on which size interpretation of Marines you choose, they can very well carry enough for a protracted engagement- especially since rounds of that caliber will be one-shot kills, if not one-shot-multi-kills.
I'd say that's one author that's simply writing stuff to sound cool without checking their source material and having no clue what he's really talking about.

That passage is in contradiction to every specification GW, FW, FFG, etc have given in many books over time, from Rogue Trader to the 2E and 4E Wargear books, other BL books and FFG's RPG series. From any realistic perspective, ~120mm rounds are simply not practical anti-infantry weapons for what (to scale on a Space Marines) are submachinegun-esque firearms. That'd be like firing actual shoulder fired RPG's (or actually, bigger) for bolter rounds, which is absurd (not the least of which because their magazines would only hold like 2-3 rounds and be enormous). Shells of that size are anti-vehicle/area effect explosives, neither of which Bolters, however impressive, really are.

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If bolters had shells that size, they would be 2-3 shot panzerfaust like weapons.

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