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Or I suppose it's equally valid to wait until a retail release and find out if its worth buying when people already have the product in their hands. As long as everyone doesn't do that!
It's valid, but they have said that the kickstarter box will have lots of things that the retail release won't. It will be interesting to see if they stick to that plan, or if that was just a rumour
Honestly I find that style of Kickstarter troubling. It gets to a point where you're obviously aiming to just make your money by direct-selling through the KS campaign and any sales you make of the much-reduced finished product later on is a bonus, which is great for the company but utter rubbish for the consumer since your choices are reduced to - paying up front and entirely on trust for a full product which may not meet your expectations or the maker's promises, or indeed may never arrive at all; or waiting until retail and getting an inferior product.
There are plenty of ways to incentivise backers without making large parts of the game inaccessible to retail customers.
The problem is that the economic model is completely different. As Fred Henry said, with KS, the publisher gets 90% of the money months before the release. With retail, they get 35% of the money a couple of months after the release. Fred Henry wants to get advantage of kickstarter to provide the best possible game for the backers.
But this game would be totally unsellable on retail, where it would cost maybe 250$ (against 120-150$ on KS). So they needed to lighten up the box in order to be able to sell it in retail at an acceptable price.
It doesn't mean what isn't in the deluxe box won't be available at some point at retail, but it is certain you won't be getting the same deal.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yodhrin wrote: Thanks Panzar, that's a shame as it means I'll probably only pick up a couple of models rather than the whole whack(I try and aim for 30-31mm to the eyes on "average human male" models, so all my figs are broadly comparable). Might still grab that shiny Necromancer and a few characters to use as "tall people" if they're made available in proper resin though.
About the miniature size, Monolith just posted a picture where Conan miniatures size is compared to that of other games miniatures (Helldorado, Rum and Bones, Rackam and Games Workshop)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/12 11:49:49
Or I suppose it's equally valid to wait until a retail release and find out if its worth buying when people already have the product in their hands. As long as everyone doesn't do that!
It's valid, but they have said that the kickstarter box will have lots of things that the retail release won't. It will be interesting to see if they stick to that plan, or if that was just a rumour
Honestly I find that style of Kickstarter troubling. It gets to a point where you're obviously aiming to just make your money by direct-selling through the KS campaign and any sales you make of the much-reduced finished product later on is a bonus, which is great for the company but utter rubbish for the consumer since your choices are reduced to - paying up front and entirely on trust for a full product which may not meet your expectations or the maker's promises, or indeed may never arrive at all; or waiting until retail and getting an inferior product.
There are plenty of ways to incentivise backers without making large parts of the game inaccessible to retail customers.
The problem is that the economic model is completely different. As Fred Henry said, with KS, the publisher gets 90% of the money months before the release. With retail, they get 35% of the money a couple of months after the release. Fred Henry wants to get advantage of kickstarter to provide the best possible game for the backers.
But this game would be totally unsellable on retail, where it would cost maybe 250$ (against 120-150$ on KS). So they needed to lighten up the box in order to be able to sell it in retail at an acceptable price.
It doesn't mean what isn't in the deluxe box won't be available at some point at retail, but it is certain you won't be getting the same deal.
Two issues, the first being that viewing Kickstarter as a "business model" is exactly the problem I'm describing. The entire justification for asking people for their money up-front with no guarantees of delivery is that you are helping to bring a product to market that would otherwise never exist, using it as a way to efficiently extract money from customers may be good for the companies in question but it completely eradicates that core justification, and it's a huge "up yours" to retailers to boot. There is supposed to be some measure of altruism inherent in the role of the backer - you have spare disposable income, and by giving the creator that money up-front you not only ensure a product you like is being made you also help to make it available to other people, help support a creator, and maybe even help your local game store; but if the product is designed from the outset to target only the Kickstarter backers then that aspect goes away as well. Not everyone can afford to just throw money at every Kickstarter that vaguely intrigues them, some of us have to be selective, and both people who fit that description and people who can't back KS' at all are relying on both the "back everything" types and the content creators to not just blow a raspberry and flip them the bird with the "feth you Jack, I got mine" attitude that seems to underlie the "Kickstarter as business model" concept.
The second issue is that you're speculating. If a company actually states outright that they will make all the product from the Kickstarter available, in whatever form, to retail customers, fine, no problems. The question is not whether retail customers will be able to buy the additional content cheaply, it's whether they'll be able to buy it at all. People guessing that they might make it available at some point is not an outright statement. The creator saying "We might do it at some point in the future, maybe, if the stars align according to prophesy and our reading of the chicken entrails is favourable" is not an outright statement.
EDIT: And now your edit makes me even more annoyed, since now I've seen that pic I really want to go all-in but know I can't(I already have 4 KS waiting on fulfillment and other projects to deal with in the short term), so now it's not hypothetical; I will miss out on things I'd like to get and which would fit with my existing models.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/12 12:10:18
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
Or I suppose it's equally valid to wait until a retail release and find out if its worth buying when people already have the product in their hands. As long as everyone doesn't do that!
It's valid, but they have said that the kickstarter box will have lots of things that the retail release won't. It will be interesting to see if they stick to that plan, or if that was just a rumour
Honestly I find that style of Kickstarter troubling. It gets to a point where you're obviously aiming to just make your money by direct-selling through the KS campaign and any sales you make of the much-reduced finished product later on is a bonus, which is great for the company but utter rubbish for the consumer since your choices are reduced to - paying up front and entirely on trust for a full product which may not meet your expectations or the maker's promises, or indeed may never arrive at all; or waiting until retail and getting an inferior product.
There are plenty of ways to incentivise backers without making large parts of the game inaccessible to retail customers.
The problem is that the economic model is completely different. As Fred Henry said, with KS, the publisher gets 90% of the money months before the release. With retail, they get 35% of the money a couple of months after the release. Fred Henry wants to get advantage of kickstarter to provide the best possible game for the backers. But this game would be totally unsellable on retail, where it would cost maybe 250$ (against 120-150$ on KS). So they needed to lighten up the box in order to be able to sell it in retail at an acceptable price.
It doesn't mean what isn't in the deluxe box won't be available at some point at retail, but it is certain you won't be getting the same deal.
Two issues, the first being that viewing Kickstarter as a "business model" is exactly the problem I'm describing. The entire justification for asking people for their money up-front with no guarantees of delivery is that you are helping to bring a product to market that would otherwise never exist, using it as a way to efficiently extract money from customers may be good for the companies in question but it completely eradicates that core justification, and it's a huge "up yours" to retailers to boot. There is supposed to be some measure of altruism inherent in the role of the backer - you have spare disposable income, and by giving the creator that money up-front you not only ensure a product you like is being made you also help to make it available to other people, help support a creator, and maybe even help your local game store; but if the product is designed from the outset to target only the Kickstarter backers then that aspect goes away as well. Not everyone can afford to just throw money at every Kickstarter that vaguely intrigues them, some of us have to be selective, and both people who fit that description and people who can't back KS' at all are relying on both the "back everything" types and the content creators to not just blow a raspberry and flip them the bird with the "feth you Jack, I got mine" attitude that seems to underlie the "Kickstarter as business model" concept.
The second issue is that you're speculating. If a company actually states outright that they will make all the product from the Kickstarter available, in whatever form, to retail customers, fine, no problems. The question is not whether retail customers will be able to buy the additional content cheaply, it's whether they'll be able to buy it at all. People guessing that they might make it available at some point is not an outright statement. The creator saying "We might do it at some point in the future, maybe, if the stars align according to prophesy and our reading of the chicken entrails is favourable" is not an outright statement.
EDIT: And now your edit makes me even more annoyed, since now I've seen that pic I really want to go all-in but know I can't(I already have 4 KS waiting on fulfillment and other projects to deal with in the short term), so now it's not hypothetical; I will miss out on things I'd like to get and which would fit with my existing models.
I agree with this, but I think the more important issue is that those numbers don't make any logical sense. 90% of the money before release versus 35% of the money after release? I don't see how that makes rational sense unless your only option other than KS is to sell through a distributor. But that doesn't make sense either.
Kickstarter is a marketing platform and a means of collecting money. In the grand scheme of things, it does not change your costs of production and distribution, except to make them larger, as KS takes an additional percentage. Although if you borrowed to finance a production run, 8% wouldn't be that unexpected anyway. If you can't afford to do a large volume production run up front, sure, Kickstarter can make that happen. But if your margin is so razor thin on a KS product that you can't afford to produce surplus units for retail release and at least break even on the production run, what is the point?
Kickstarter can so easily be used as a schill to entice customers into an impulse "buy" in which the creator has no actual obligation to deliver the product as advertised or indeed deliver it at all. That sort of no strings transaction is great for the project creator (in theory), but it sucks for the backer, and it sucks for the TTG market at large. Kickstarter is great in many ways, don't get me wrong, and I am not saying that this project (which I will probably back) is going to be a schill, but Kickstarter as a business model in the TTG industry has become a total schill, and so much business has been driven to Kickstarter that companies feel that they have to use Kickstarter in order to compete effectively.
This creates a sort of vicious cycle, and I think we are already starting to see some of the consequences of Kickstarter fatigue in the customer base. The shine is starting to wear off, but as it wears off, the cycle gets worse for companies that legitimately need upfront funds to get a new product developed and manufactured. As trust goes down, project creators have to do more and show more in order to earn that trust, and at some point you might as well just feth off or pay for production yourself because you can't afford to compete on the platform with established businesses using it as a marketing schill.
I want to see companies using Kickstarter that legitimately cannot afford either full development costs or production costs. I want to see products on Kickstarter that will hit retail release in virtually the same condition after pledges are fulfilled. I want to see Kickstarter used to create established companies that will continue to produce excellent products on their own dime.
This Conan thing has a load of money behind it already. The publisher has an IP license. It has a passel of expensive artwork. It has an IP consultant. It has already started production. This publisher is not hurting for upfront cash at all. That's a fact. The question one must ask is at what point did game publishers with the financial footing to independently engage in this level of development start needing Kickstarter in order to bring a product to market? They didn't. In such a context as this I flatly refuse to believe that Kickstarter is necessary to make this product a reality.
But I am a huge R Howard Conan fan, and if KS is the only way I am going to be able to get the product, so be it. But this 90% vs 35% thing is drinking the Kool-Aid.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/12/12 12:48:06
Kirasu: Have we fallen so far that we are excited that GW is giving us the opportunity to spend 58$ for JUST the rules? Surprised it's not "Dataslate: Assault Phase"
AlexHolker: "The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation."
AlexHolker: "Allow me to put it this way: Paramount is Skynet, reboots are termination attempts, and your childhood is John Connor."
You're making assumptions that (at least some of) the stuff like art, sculpts etc has been paid for
If the artist/sculptor believes in a project (or knows a project creator) they may well agree to do stuff for free to be paid for later after a KS funds )(or for other concessions)
(a good example of this is the significant amount of sculpting done by Fenris Games for Cthulhu wars without any up front payment... the KS did well so they did get paid, and they can also sell metal/resin versions of the minis)
I'm certainly not saying they haven't sunk a decent chunk of cash into the project, but whether they would have done so without the 'fast' payoff of a KS campaign ? who knows
(paying off a business loan faster is big attraction even for start up businesses with money to spend)
Or I suppose it's equally valid to wait until a retail release and find out if its worth buying when people already have the product in their hands. As long as everyone doesn't do that!
It's valid, but they have said that the kickstarter box will have lots of things that the retail release won't. It will be interesting to see if they stick to that plan, or if that was just a rumour
Honestly I find that style of Kickstarter troubling. It gets to a point where you're obviously aiming to just make your money by direct-selling through the KS campaign and any sales you make of the much-reduced finished product later on is a bonus, which is great for the company but utter rubbish for the consumer since your choices are reduced to - paying up front and entirely on trust for a full product which may not meet your expectations or the maker's promises, or indeed may never arrive at all; or waiting until retail and getting an inferior product.
There are plenty of ways to incentivise backers without making large parts of the game inaccessible to retail customers.
The problem is that the economic model is completely different. As Fred Henry said, with KS, the publisher gets 90% of the money months before the release. With retail, they get 35% of the money a couple of months after the release. Fred Henry wants to get advantage of kickstarter to provide the best possible game for the backers.
But this game would be totally unsellable on retail, where it would cost maybe 250$ (against 120-150$ on KS). So they needed to lighten up the box in order to be able to sell it in retail at an acceptable price.
It doesn't mean what isn't in the deluxe box won't be available at some point at retail, but it is certain you won't be getting the same deal.
Two issues, the first being that viewing Kickstarter as a "business model" is exactly the problem I'm describing. The entire justification for asking people for their money up-front with no guarantees of delivery is that you are helping to bring a product to market that would otherwise never exist, using it as a way to efficiently extract money from customers may be good for the companies in question but it completely eradicates that core justification, and it's a huge "up yours" to retailers to boot. There is supposed to be some measure of altruism inherent in the role of the backer - you have spare disposable income, and by giving the creator that money up-front you not only ensure a product you like is being made you also help to make it available to other people, help support a creator, and maybe even help your local game store; but if the product is designed from the outset to target only the Kickstarter backers then that aspect goes away as well. Not everyone can afford to just throw money at every Kickstarter that vaguely intrigues them, some of us have to be selective, and both people who fit that description and people who can't back KS' at all are relying on both the "back everything" types and the content creators to not just blow a raspberry and flip them the bird with the "feth you Jack, I got mine" attitude that seems to underlie the "Kickstarter as business model" concept.
The second issue is that you're speculating. If a company actually states outright that they will make all the product from the Kickstarter available, in whatever form, to retail customers, fine, no problems. The question is not whether retail customers will be able to buy the additional content cheaply, it's whether they'll be able to buy it at all. People guessing that they might make it available at some point is not an outright statement. The creator saying "We might do it at some point in the future, maybe, if the stars align according to prophesy and our reading of the chicken entrails is favourable" is not an outright statement.
EDIT: And now your edit makes me even more annoyed, since now I've seen that pic I really want to go all-in but know I can't(I already have 4 KS waiting on fulfillment and other projects to deal with in the short term), so now it's not hypothetical; I will miss out on things I'd like to get and which would fit with my existing models.
I agree with this, but I think the more important issue is that those numbers don't make any logical sense. 90% of the money before release versus 35% of the money after release? I don't see how that makes rational sense unless your only option other than KS is to sell through a distributor. But that doesn't make sense either.
Kickstarter is a marketing platform and a means of collecting money. In the grand scheme of things, it does not change your costs of production and distribution, except to make them larger, as KS takes an additional percentage. Although if you borrowed to finance a production run, 8% wouldn't be that unexpected anyway. If you can't afford to do a large volume production run up front, sure, Kickstarter can make that happen. But if your margin is so razor thin on a KS product that you can't afford to produce surplus units for retail release and at least break even on the production run, what is the point?
Kickstarter can so easily be used as a schill to entice customers into an impulse "buy" in which the creator has no actual obligation to deliver the product as advertised or indeed deliver it at all. That sort of no strings transaction is great for the project creator (in theory), but it sucks for the backer, and it sucks for the TTG market at large. Kickstarter is great in many ways, don't get me wrong, and I am not saying that this project (which I will probably back) is going to be a schill, but Kickstarter as a business model in the TTG industry has become a total schill, and so much business has been driven to Kickstarter that companies feel that they have to use Kickstarter in order to compete effectively.
This creates a sort of vicious cycle, and I think we are already starting to see some of the consequences of Kickstarter fatigue in the customer base. The shine is starting to wear off, but as it wears off, the cycle gets worse for companies that legitimately need upfront funds to get a new product developed and manufactured. As trust goes down, project creators have to do more and show more in order to earn that trust, and at some point you might as well just feth off or pay for production yourself because you can't afford to compete on the platform with established businesses using it as a marketing schill.
I want to see companies using Kickstarter that legitimately cannot afford either full development costs or production costs. I want to see products on Kickstarter that will hit retail release in virtually the same condition after pledges are fulfilled. I want to see Kickstarter used to create established companies that will continue to produce excellent products on their own dime.
This Conan thing has a load of money behind it already. The publisher has an IP license. It has a passel of expensive artwork. It has an IP consultant. It has already started production. This publisher is not hurting for upfront cash at all. That's a fact. The question one must ask is at what point did game publishers with the financial footing to independently engage in this level of development start needing Kickstarter in order to bring a product to market? They didn't. In such a context as this I flatly refuse to believe that Kickstarter is necessary to make this product a reality.
But I am a huge R Howard Conan fan, and if KS is the only way I am going to be able to get the product, so be it. But this 90% vs 35% thing is drinking the Kool-Aid.
When you pay a game via kickstarter, you pay when the KS finishes, months before the game is released. KS gets 10% and the rest goes to the publisher.
When you buy a game in retail, the game is already produced. You pay your game store, they pay the distributor while they all get a cut, and what remains for the publisher is about 35% of what you paid the gamestore. These are just facts. I don't see what is shocking in here.
As for money, the publisher indeed has money, but not enough to produce this game. All the money went into the game development to pay the IP, the sculptors, the artists, the designers, the communication...
It is a big amount of money, sure, but now what is left is pay the production itself. And that's what the KS is for.
So no, this game couldn't be made without kickstarter. To publish such a game with the traditional model would be a lose situation for everyone. To ensure that everyone gets its share, the game would need to be incredibly expensive, nobody would buy it, and everyone would lose money.
So, yes, KS will enable the publisher, of which the main designer is part, to create a game which couldn't have been made any other way. And the retail shops will also get a game, with less material, which they will be able to sell.
All this is just to say that the reason the Deluxe box won't be a in retail is for economic reasons. So, if the KS is a success, some of it could certainly find its way as an expansionto the retail store at some point. Yes, this last bit is speculation from my part, but why wouldn't they ?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/12 14:03:45
When you pay a game via kickstarter, you pay when the KS finishes, months before the game is released. KS gets 10% and the rest goes to the publisher.
When you buy a game in retail, the game is already produced. You pay your game store, they pay the distributor while they all get a cut, and what remains for the publisher is about 35% of what you paid the gamestore. These are just facts. I don't see what is shocking in here.
As for money, the publisher indeed has money, but not enough to produce this game. All the money went into the game development to pay the IP, the sculptors, the artists, the designers, the communication...
It is a big amount of money, sure, but now what is left is pay the production itself. And that's what the KS is for.
So no, this game couldn't be made without kickstarter. To publish such a game with the traditional model would be a lose situation for everyone. To ensure that everyone gets its share, the game would need to be incredibly expensive, nobody would buy it, and everyone would lose money.
So, yes, KS will enable the publisher, of which the main designer is part, to create a game which couldn't have been made any other way. And the retail shops will also get a game, with less material, which they will be able to sell.
All this is just to say that the reason the Deluxe box won't be a in retail is for economic reasons. So, if the KS is a success, some of it could certainly find its way to the retail shop at some point. Yes, this last bit is speculation from my part, but why wouldn't they ?
First of all, no, you don't need to sell a product through a distributor. You can sell directly, which is pretty much exactly what Kickstarter is anyway. Direct sale is also how lots and lots of companies in the TTG market operate.
If the publisher can collect money for a product online via Kickstarter and get that product into the hands of individual customers, the publisher can do it through traditional online retailing as well if that's what it is interested in doing. Now, if you want to wholesale, that's a different story, but Kickstarter is not wholesale. Kickstarter is glorified direct sale to individual customers at a price point set by the project creator.
Wholesale/Distributor discount is not a legitimate reason, on its own, to necessitate a Kickstarter campaign. Development costs are also not part of COGS. If you've got a pile of cash invested into development, and it costs X/unit to manufacture the actual product, you can sell that product for more than the production cost and make a profit on the unit sale. You sell enough units, you make back the development costs, and now you are in the black.
If you sell through a distributor, ideally you make up the lower profit margin in volume. That's the idea. That's why you sell to a distributor. If either your expected sales volume or profit margin are too low to make selling through a distributor viable, sell the product directly. But in general, if your profit margin on a product is so low that you can't afford to sell it at a 50% wholesale discount, that's a pretty fundamental problem on its own.
The point is that rationalizing a Kickstarter campaign by comparing what is essentially a direct sale profit margin versus a wholesale discount is absurd. No one is obligated to sell via distributors in this market. Kickstarter is not a magical way to do an end run around wholesale discounts. Kickstarter is a marketing platform for direct sale pre-orders.
I get that Kickstarter can be a good way to pay for an expensive, large volume production run. I get it. But the criticism Yodhrin brought up was related to exclusive Kickstarter content. If you are using Kickstarter because you don't have the cash to pay for an expensive, large volume production run, fine. But how exactly does that have anything to do with providing exclusive content? How does Kickstarter have anything to do with COGS other than allowing a large production run which tends to lower COGS?
Once you do that production run, you have the units. If your production run is only so large as to fulfill the Kickstarter pledges, what was the point? Your goal must either have been to altruistically put a thing into the world (fine) or to pocket any excess funds, write off the product, and move on to another one-shot Kickstarter (not-so-fine).
If the product is something that you intend to keep producing, it can make sense to offer a discount off of MSRP to backers who are willing to put in money on faith and trust, use those pledges to order a large production run, fulfill those pledges with a portion of that production run, and sell the remaining units via retail. But to do that you can't set the pledge levels at COGS, can you? You still have to make a profit on those units to pay for the whole production run.
Offering exclusive content as part of the Kickstarter is economically backwards unless your goal is to increase unit sales. You want people to back the Kickstarter, so you put them in a position of having to back the Kickstarter to get the proper product. It does not make sense in terms of production costs because COGS tends to go down with volume. Putting more of the same stuff in a box makes sense, because you are already manufacturing that stuff. It ups the COGS for every unit, but maybe you do that instead of offering a more significant retail discount.
Anyway, the TLDR is that lots of folks are using Kickstarter like a marketing platform, and are encouraging impulse buys in order to get a nice, fat stack of cash with no strings attached. It is not about wholesale discounts and COGS.
Kirasu: Have we fallen so far that we are excited that GW is giving us the opportunity to spend 58$ for JUST the rules? Surprised it's not "Dataslate: Assault Phase"
AlexHolker: "The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation."
AlexHolker: "Allow me to put it this way: Paramount is Skynet, reboots are termination attempts, and your childhood is John Connor."
I think when Kickstarter got big, everyone thought it was great for the consumer. But as time went on and more and more projects failed to deliver or delivered way below expectations, people have realized that Kickstarter is only great for the producer. And like you say, with producer trust eroding, Kickstarter is only great for established companies with the funds to prepare a lavish campaign steeped in beautiful artwork and finished miniatures.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/12/12 15:25:41
kestral wrote: All of my kickstarter experiences have been with small scale stuff from small companies. I've been completely satisfied, for what it is worth.
Same here. But that's the way I view Kickstarter. The platform isn't ruined, but it is certainly a peculiar marketplace that can be very toxic for startups and small businesses in the TTG market.
What I don't like to see are the more negative aspects of the platform justified on spurious bases. In many ways Kickstarter is driven off of a pleasant fiction that does not always match up to reality. Perpetuating that fiction is not healthy in my opinion.
Kirasu: Have we fallen so far that we are excited that GW is giving us the opportunity to spend 58$ for JUST the rules? Surprised it's not "Dataslate: Assault Phase"
AlexHolker: "The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation."
AlexHolker: "Allow me to put it this way: Paramount is Skynet, reboots are termination attempts, and your childhood is John Connor."
Mymearan wrote: And like you say, with producer trust eroding, Kickstarter is only great for established companies with the funds to prepare a lavish campaign steeped in beautiful artwork and finished miniatures.
Not true. I backed quite a number of little indie-projects and very few of them were dissapointing. You just have to keep in mind that there is always a risk involved. But then, sometimes ordering established products through an online merchant brings its own risks (thank you again, Rob Lane!).
Just don't back everything willy-nilly, weigh your options and your risks carefully and you'll be able to back lots of wonderful little projects which would have never seen the light otherwise.
Mymearan wrote: And like you say, with producer trust eroding, Kickstarter is only great for established companies with the funds to prepare a lavish campaign steeped in beautiful artwork and finished miniatures.
Not true. I backed quite a number of little indie-projects and very few of them were dissapointing. You just have to keep in mind that there is always a risk involved. But then, sometimes ordering established products through an online merchant brings its own risks (thank you again, Rob Lane!).
Just don't back everything willy-nilly, weigh your options and your risks carefully and you'll be able to back lots of wonderful little projects which would have never seen the light otherwise.
Yep. What's really fantastic though is that their stuff is up for anyone to enjoy after the KS; I couldn't afford to back the Oathsworn KS' at the time, but because of the KS backers and Oathsworn not being grasping "Kickstarter as business model" types, I can now go and buy the models. And that's all I want, companies to use Kickstarter to actually fund their products, not as a preorder system for a super-ultra-special-limited edition of their product that, providing it generates a surplus and they're in a good mood, might eventually lead to a much reduced "Afterthought Edition" being made available for the plebs.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
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"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
Have the designers given though to a minis only pledge? They've got some fantastic models, and some talented sculptors. It would be a shame to limit these models to within-game only.
Even as add-ons, I'd be in on this one to get the figs. Not the game though, I have too many of those (and they're harder to hide from my wife!)
Ugh, that's sad news. As much as I love Conan, I have no interest in a boardgame/skirmish game at this point in my life (just don't have the time; it would be competing with RPG's and miniature painting). And I am wary of boardgame plastics; at the very least I would need to see a completely finished production cast before backing. I cannot help but think that the wonderful sculpting here will go to waste.
Ugh, that's sad news. As much as I love Conan, I have no interest in a boardgame/skirmish game at this point in my life (just don't have the time; it would be competing with RPG's and miniature painting). And I am wary of boardgame plastics; at the very least I would need to see a completely finished production cast before backing. I cannot help but think that the wonderful sculpting here will go to waste.
I think it is a fething crying shame to take such beautiful sculpts and manufacture them in PVC. Fething travesty. The DUST miniatures came out decently, but for every miniature that came out looking decent in PVC, I have seen a dozen more than came out looking like crap. The loss of fidelity and impossibility of cleanup take such pieces from artwork used as game tokens to interesting-looking game tokens.
Kirasu: Have we fallen so far that we are excited that GW is giving us the opportunity to spend 58$ for JUST the rules? Surprised it's not "Dataslate: Assault Phase"
AlexHolker: "The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation."
AlexHolker: "Allow me to put it this way: Paramount is Skynet, reboots are termination attempts, and your childhood is John Connor."
grefven wrote: I agree, it's a shame these beauties will only be made in plastic, but I guess that this is more aimed to a wider market than just "miniature addicts"
But we wants it, we wants it, we wants the precious resin!
Seriously, though, I do feel it might be kind of a waste of money to employ such illustrious sculptors if these will only be PVC gaming pieces.
grefven wrote: I agree, it's a shame these beauties will only be made in plastic, but I guess that this is more aimed to a wider market than just "miniature addicts"
But we wants it, we wants it, we wants the precious resin!
Seriously, though, I do feel it might be kind of a waste of money to employ such illustrious sculptors if these will only be PVC gaming pieces.
Exalted. I absolutely 100% agree. Such talented sculptors, such beautiful sculpts, such potential for disappointment.
Kirasu: Have we fallen so far that we are excited that GW is giving us the opportunity to spend 58$ for JUST the rules? Surprised it's not "Dataslate: Assault Phase"
AlexHolker: "The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation."
AlexHolker: "Allow me to put it this way: Paramount is Skynet, reboots are termination attempts, and your childhood is John Connor."
This has been a discussion ever since the thread started. I agree, the miniatures look too good (and certainly, the way they are displayed) for just plastic playing pieces, although at the same time I recognise that there is some crossover here in terms of what market they are trying to appeal to.
I wonder if there is the possibility that they might do a special resin cast set (as Mantic did with Dungeon Saga) for those prepared to pay for it?
Certainly might be something worth considering mentioning to them once the KS has launched and we get a full look at what they are offering.
Alpharius wrote: Definitely worth mentioning to them during the KS Campaign, but even more important to mention it to them ASAP, NOW, via their Facebook page!
Indeed. Those are some nice models, and they should absolutely consider mastering them separately before sending them off to China for PVC production. It won't take an unreasonable number of preorders to pay for production runs in resin. I honestly think it would be a better idea to set up a traditional pre-order than try to link it directly to the KS campaign. Personally, I wouldn't mind having the board game quality PVC casts and a set of resin miniatures. That way you could play the game out of the box without having to touch the models, and you'd have some rough and tumble pieces for carting the game around to the FLGS, packing in checked luggage, etc. And you'd have some nice pieces fit for careful cleaning and painting. But then it is easy to say that now without putting up any money, LOL.
It is disheartening to see those nice sculpts and imagine them with soft details and unassailable mold lines in some kind of brightly-colored PVC. Utterly disheartening.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/28 14:22:41
Kirasu: Have we fallen so far that we are excited that GW is giving us the opportunity to spend 58$ for JUST the rules? Surprised it's not "Dataslate: Assault Phase"
AlexHolker: "The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation."
AlexHolker: "Allow me to put it this way: Paramount is Skynet, reboots are termination attempts, and your childhood is John Connor."
Conan by Monolith
December 15 at 11:13am · Edited ·
We're in the home stretch: resins are cast, drawings are finished, layout and graphics are being finalized. Here's an example of a Conan character sheet with his equipment cards.
Resins...and hopefully not just the masters!
I can totally see a 'resin minis pledge' being available during the campaign.
I can totally see a 'resin minis pledge' being available during the campaign.
Ah, so at least there are resin masters. Even if it's only PVC, hopefully they'll keep some masters for later production in resin.
Edit: As for that character card...I am having some doubts about the game now... That card is busy, busy, busy. I am extremely dubious about things that have two numbers on them. 5/red, 4/orange, no number/orange, 4/2, no number/no color. What?
The item cards seem easy enough to interpret, except I don't understand the difference between a bonus die that you roll and a bonus die that you don't roll.
I'm seeing a Battle Axe that gives you one extra red die when you attack in melee, and one red die if you throw it. If you throw it, you drop it. If you use it in melee it is slow. It's weight is three weight units.
That's fine. Not knowing the game rules at all, I can get most of the info on the card. The character card on the other hand...whoa. I can speculate about most of it, but it is busy, busy, busy. You get movement penalties from weight, there's daytime effects and nighttime effects, there's different colored dice and different numbers of the colored dice, likely with different added modifiers....... At first blush I am concerned.
I see that there's different movement for running, jumping, climbing, and swimming, and stats for breaking in doors and murdering people. But are all of the characters going to have different values for these stats? Am I going to be checking Belit's climb stat every time she activates because all five of the characters have different climb stats? but I forgot that she's carrying 8 weights, and when she's carrying 8 weights she has -2 movement. Wait, how much is she carrying, let me check her items again...1, 3, 2, 1...no, she's at 7 weights. At 7 weights her movement is only -1, so she climbs at 7 movements.
Even if the game makes sense, they should drag their graphic designer out back and shoot him/her. (If you are the graphic designer, I don't mean this literally, and I understand that some clients are difficult to work with. Hang in there.)
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/12/28 20:15:34
Kirasu: Have we fallen so far that we are excited that GW is giving us the opportunity to spend 58$ for JUST the rules? Surprised it's not "Dataslate: Assault Phase"
AlexHolker: "The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation."
AlexHolker: "Allow me to put it this way: Paramount is Skynet, reboots are termination attempts, and your childhood is John Connor."
Mymearan wrote: And like you say, with producer trust eroding, Kickstarter is only great for established companies with the funds to prepare a lavish campaign steeped in beautiful artwork and finished miniatures.
Not true. I backed quite a number of little indie-projects and very few of them were dissapointing. You just have to keep in mind that there is always a risk involved. But then, sometimes ordering established products through an online merchant brings its own risks (thank you again, Rob Lane!).
Just don't back everything willy-nilly, weigh your options and your risks carefully and you'll be able to back lots of wonderful little projects which would have never seen the light otherwise.
Yep. What's really fantastic though is that their stuff is up for anyone to enjoy after the KS; I couldn't afford to back the Oathsworn KS' at the time, but because of the KS backers and Oathsworn not being grasping "Kickstarter as business model" types, I can now go and buy the models. And that's all I want, companies to use Kickstarter to actually fund their products, not as a preorder system for a super-ultra-special-limited edition of their product that, providing it generates a surplus and they're in a good mood, might eventually lead to a much reduced "Afterthought Edition" being made available for the plebs.
So basically you want to reap the same rewards off other people risking their funds? That Oathsworn KS is frankly a terrible example of a well designed Kickstarter. For most of the Oathsworn projects, their backers paid more than people like you who bought at release. For example, the brewers were 16 for 4 figures in the campaign vs 3.20 each later. Why the hell would anyone back another one of their projects, since your only "reward" for paying early is also paying MORE? Unfortunately the model falls apart when everyone realizes this, and stops backing, so it never gets made in the first place.
Sorry man, there needs to be a good incentive to spend money early, potentially getting nothing in return. Exclusives are here to stay for smart campaigns.
These minis look great. They seriously need to do resin/metal versions, as spending all that effort on great sculpts only to turn them to soft PVC blobs is a damn shame.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/28 22:17:36
load of money behind it already. The publisher has an IP license. It has a passel of expensive artwork. It has an IP consultant. It has already started production. This publisher is not hurting for upfront cash at all. That's a fact. The question one must ask is at what point did game publishers with the financial footing to independently engage in this level of development start needing Kickstarter in order to bring a product to market? They didn't. In such a context as this I flatly refuse to believe that Kickstarter is necessary to make this product a reality.
