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You, or no one else, have seen a case where "Early Bird" pledge slots 'worked'?

Really?

Those are also some pretty...interesting claims about the campaigns listed.

I'm detecting a bit of...bias in these statements!

ced1106 wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:
How are we going to be big? Well, what did CMoN do? What did Flying Frog do? What did Soda Pop do? We have to do that, right? We have to pour money into marketing. We have to do early bird pledge levels. We have to offer exclusive content. We have to do this thing and that thing and on and on so we can have a huge campaign and make a million dollars. Wait...holy crap. How did we get so far from where we started, back when all we wanted to do was get this awesome game into the hands of people that might love it?

Actually, speaking of these companies...

CMON's nature of exclusives and EB's bit them with their Eurogame, Dogs of War. Eurogamers (ie. BGG) doesn't buy into EB's, exclusives, and involved campaigns -- and probably doesn't like paying additional shipping, either. DoW made 66K, possibly not enough to cover the costs of molds in the campaign. Soda Pop Miniatures partnered with CMON then split off with its own Forgotten Kings KS campaign, which didn't have exclusives or EB's.

Speaking of which, SPM did make over a million dollars and reached its project goals early in its campaign without the need for exclusives or EB's.

FFP had some very negative feedback from BGG with its over-underpriced EB's, specifically the mine carts. They ended up backtracking with the mine carts and offering credit. Very messy. In the end, FFP lost money, cut costs, and produced miniatures with poor details.

Reaper doesn't use EB's. Dwarven Forge doesn't use EB's. MegaMiniatures doesn't use EB's. Stonemaier Games doesn't use EB's. Impact Miniatures doesn't use EB's. Stonehaven Miniatures doesn't use EB's. MegaCon Games does not use EB's. The "KS Best Practices & Lessons Learned" FB group does not endorse EB's.

Every time I ask for studies, research, or proof that EB's work, I never receive anything to back up the statements EB proponents make. It's the Five Monkeys all over again.

I agree with you.

I was imagining what the guys at Monolith might be thinking. It doesn't matter whether it is rational. What I wrote there is consistent with what Fred was saying about EBs on BGG. At least in the sense that they were justifying them on the basis of having to do 'what works'. I get the impression that they are trying to run a CMoN style campaign, even though it makes them somewhat uncomfortable. As I said, maybe they feel that they have to do it to be successful...but this is at odds with Fred saying it isn't about the money. It just doesn't square. If your goal isn't to have huge, money-making campaign, why do something that you don't really want to do just because it was what several blockbuster campaigns did? You do it if that's the kind of campaign you want to run.

Ultimately, I could give a crap about EB pledge levels. I don't appreciate the project creators being disingenuous and dismissive. How hard is it to be honest? This is just another splashy, blockbuster Kickstarter to 'fund' a product that will absolutely otherwise hit retail release organized by a company whose entire business model appears to be to launch superfluous Kickstarter campaigns which they justify with a bunch of marketing schill.

On top of that, they are being dismissive about potential customers who don't agree with their BS. So from my perspective, who cares what the product is like. I'll take a pass on it. Welcome to the problems with Kickstarter, Monolith. I guarantee you'll see more reactions like mine as the campaign progresses.

Pictures from FB

Quite the 18-pack that Conan has there...

 Alex C wrote:
Quite the 18-pack that Conan has there...

Inevitably with an impossible to clean mold line running down the side of it. Thanks PVC.

weeble1000 wrote:

 Alex C wrote:
Quite the 18-pack that Conan has there...

Inevitably with an impossible to clean mold line running down the side of it. Thanks PVC.

Curious.

I've had plenty of luck cleaning mould lines off of PVC models from multiple companies, with relative ease.

It's probably sheer luck though. I bet I just got lucky and got good casts.

 cincydooley wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:

 Alex C wrote:
Quite the 18-pack that Conan has there...

Inevitably with an impossible to clean mold line running down the side of it. Thanks PVC.

Curious.

I've had plenty of luck cleaning mould lines off of PVC models from multiple companies, with relative ease.

It's probably sheer luck though. I bet I just got lucky and got good casts.

Possibly. I haven't had trouble with old lines either, but several of my Relic Knights figures(Cerci) are quite hard to salvage. I'll have to paint faces on several of them, and many are terribly thin. There are quite a few mold lines as well, but they aren't that difficult to remove. It's just a bother I haven't got the will to deal with yet.

That's why you gotta go big or go home with PVC.

Stuff like the Noh from Relic Knights have been a snap to clean up.

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
That's why you gotta go big or go home with PVC.

Stuff like the Noh from Relic Knights have been a snap to clean up.

I'm not sure you even need to "go big" anymore. I think it's a matter of understanding how to sculpt for the medium. Details necessarily need be deeper and more pronounced. While in the Chibi style, I think the Arcadia Quest models or the newer Zombicide models (especially the artist box ones). The detail on them is quite crisp and I've not seen any hard to clean mould lines on any of them.

It's a newer medium, and understanding how to sculpt to that new medium takes some time.

Weeble I don't understand the problem with my statement. I think you misunderstand what I exactly mean (probably because of my broken english).
I want to do a big KS, because I want to do something big. What I want is that people remember Conan in the same way I remember Heroquest. I want the game to be something important. It s why I want the game "in the proper hands". We all have other ways to earn our life. Monolith will not provide any income for us. I'm at the origin of Monolith and I don't need Monolith for living. I need Monolith for doing something really big. And yes, I'm not begging for money : I m selling a game. A finished game. That s really different. People who will pledge will do it because they think the deal is fair enough. If they are not convinced by the deal I don t want them spending their money in something they dont want. I want the maximum of "interested by the game himself" people. Because I want people happy with the game. All is not about money. Money is just a way to do something big. That s not arrogance, I just mean it. Conan is just about please ourself and people who will buy it. You just don t think in the way I do. I m probably a terrible seller, ok, but I prefer tell the truth that searching to seduce consummers. If I did so much play testing in all the France it s because I wanted people knowing for what they could pledge and don t just send promises. I really don t understand your problem with me.

You beat me to it!

I think that, with this material, experience definitely matters.

CMON probably has that now?

Monolith is using a factory that should also have it?

Of course, I still think that not using PVC is still best at this point, but that isn't often possible, due to all the Usual Suspects listed earlier in this thread - I think!

Fred Henry wrote:
Weeble I don't understand the problem with my statement. I think you misunderstand what I exactly mean (probably because of my broken english).
I want to do a big KS, because I want to do something big. What I want is that people remember Conan in the same way I remember Heroquest. I want the game to be something important. It s why I want the game "in the proper hands". We all have other ways to earn our life. Monolith will not provide any income for us. I'm at the origin of Monolith and I don't need Monolith for living. I need Monolith for doing something really big. And yes, I'm not begging for money : I m selling a game. A finished game. That s really different. People who will pledge will do it because they think the deal is fair enough. If they are not convinced by the deal I don t want them spending their money in something they dont want. I want the maximum of "interested by the game himself" people. Because I want people happy with the game. All is not about money. Money is just a way to do something big. That s not arrogance, I just mean it. Conan is just about please ourself and people who will buy it. You just don t think in the way I do. I m probably a terrible seller, ok, but I prefer tell the truth that searching to seduce consummers. If I did so much play testing in all the France it s because I wanted people knowing for what they could pledge and don t just send promises. I really don t understand your problem with me.

There does not seem to me to be any problem with a language barrier. You seem to communicate your point perfectly well enough, and your statements seem consistent.

First, I don't think I am the only person in the world who would experience some consternation regarding repeated statements about wanting the product to be 'in the proper hands'. If by that you mean "I want people to love the product," then you are communicating that in a really terrible way, and that doesn't have anything to do with a language barrier.

Wanting people to love your product is different from not wanting someone to buy the product who will not like it. The difference is pre-judgement of the potential customer, and that's a huge difference. The latter is a don't-like-it-don't-buy-it attitude, which is a really bad attitude to have. It is dismissive, rather than inviting. It communicates that you would rather not have someone's business than address their questions/concerns/viewpoints/etc. Like I said earlier, if you don't want my money, you aren't going to get my money.

Your comeback is, 'I don't want your money if you aren't going to be happy with the product.' The product does not exist yet! If it does exist, then Kickstarter should pull your campaign, as it violates the terms and conditions. If the product does not exist, how can you possibly say who will or will not be happy with it? So all you are really saying is, 'I don't want to hear your ing because I don't need your business'.

That is a really crappy attitude, especially when you have your hand out looking for a gift. As a backer, I cannot see the product. I cannot properly evaluate it. I cannot return it or request a refund. I cannot argue that it is not as advertised, not up to spec, or not merchantable. I can't even complain if it fails to deliver.

So questions are natural, expected, and rational. Concerns are justified. Evaluation of your character and temperament is perfectly reasonable.

Second, having an exclusionary, dismissive attitude is not consistent with wanting your project to be "big." You also can't tell me it isn't about money without giving me the numbers when you are so obviously attempting to follow a tried and tested profit-generating formula. Explain to me why Monolith won't make money off of Conan. Give me the numbers, all of the numbers.

If it isn't about making money, you won't be bothered by sharing details like COGS, development expenditures, investment sources, and so forth. Because if it isn't about making any money, you aren't running a business. So give me the numbers. Explain it to me. If you "prefer to tell the truth than seduce consumers," tell me the truth.

Why are you using Kickstarter if the product is already created? Why will Monolith not be making money off of Conan?

I don t told you Monolith will not make money. I told it will not make incomes, that s different. Anyway you are just trolling so I will stop to spend my time with you. And you are right : I don t want your money. We definitivly don t share the same philosophy.

Fred Henry wrote:
I don t told you Monolith will not make money. I told it will not make incomes, that s different. Anyway you are just trolling so I will stop to spend my time with you. And you are right : I don t want your money. We definitivly don t share the same philosophy.

Ah, yes, you did say that Monolith wasn't paying you. I'm sorry about misinterpreting that.

So, if it isn't about money for you, because Monolith isn't paying you, is it about money for Monolith?

And what is your relationship with Monolith? Are you an owner/operator? If so, what is your ownership stake?

And for the record, asking tough questions is not trolling. As Kickstarter's Trust and Safety page says:

Creators are responsible for their projects. When you back a project, you’re trusting the creator to do a good job, so if you don’t know them personally or by reputation, do a little research first. Kickstarter doesn’t evaluate a project’s claims, resolve disputes, or offer refunds — backers decide what’s worth funding and what’s not.

What creators can do

Be open. Let everyone know who you are and what you want to accomplish. You’re asking people to work with you toward a common goal — and it’s a lot easier for them to do that when they know where you’re coming from.

Be responsive. Do your best to answer backers’ questions and address their concerns, quickly and thoroughly. It’s a great way of showing people that you’re reliable, available, and committed to your project.

Be honest. Sometimes it’s tempting to “sell” your project with a glossy pitch and assurances that the work will be easy. But backers can trust you much more when you’re being straightforward and honest. Give them a real look at the work you’re doing, and be frank about the risks and challenges involved.

Absolutely love the artwork, obviously Adrian Smith has still got it

 Alex C wrote:
Quite the 18-pack that Conan has there...

More impressed by the mighty thews!

Seriously, this might well be the most macho miniature KS ever released!

weeble1000 wrote:

What creators can do

Be open. Let everyone know who you are and what you want to accomplish. You’re asking people to work with you toward a common goal — and it’s a lot easier for them to do that when they know where you’re coming from.

Be responsive. Do your best to answer backers’ questions and address their concerns, quickly and thoroughly. It’s a great way of showing people that you’re reliable, available, and committed to your project.

Be honest. Sometimes it’s tempting to “sell” your project with a glossy pitch and assurances that the work will be easy. But backers can trust you much more when you’re being straightforward and honest. Give them a real look at the work you’re doing, and be frank about the risks and challenges involved.

He's done all of those things. You just haven't liked his answers.

 cincydooley wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:

What creators can do

Be open. Let everyone know who you are and what you want to accomplish. You’re asking people to work with you toward a common goal — and it’s a lot easier for them to do that when they know where you’re coming from.

Be responsive. Do your best to answer backers’ questions and address their concerns, quickly and thoroughly. It’s a great way of showing people that you’re reliable, available, and committed to your project.

Be honest. Sometimes it’s tempting to “sell” your project with a glossy pitch and assurances that the work will be easy. But backers can trust you much more when you’re being straightforward and honest. Give them a real look at the work you’re doing, and be frank about the risks and challenges involved.

He's done all of those things. You just haven't liked his answers.

I don't agree that Fred, or Monolith, has done all of those things.

First, Fred has said that he is "selling a [finished] game." That doesn't necessarily square with Kickstarter's terms and conditions, nor the explicit, written contract between backers and project creators.

Second, Fred has said that "Monolith will not provide any income for us," which I presume means that he and others are not paid employees of Monolith. Either that or he meant Monolith would not be making a profit, but I don't think that's what he meant from the context. If it was, then that is also what I meant by Monolith "not making any money," and those concerns were evaded rather than answered in a straightforward manner.

Further, if Fred is an owner of Monolith, saying that it isn't about money for him because the company is not paying him an income is somewhat less than straightforward. If he owns all or part of the company, and the value of that company increases, Fred would likely benefit financially. In fact, depending on the specifics of the operating agreement, if Fred was an owner of Monolith, he could directly receive a portion of the Kickstarter funds perfectly well within the bounds of Kickstarter's terms and conditions.

Third, Fred has stated that the Kickstarter campaign is necessary to allow Monolith to offer a 'proper' version of the Conan product at a price point that is not viable via retail. I have asked for that statement to be substantiated, and the associated questions I posed have not been addressed by Monolith, either in whole or in part.

Having posed these important questions, as recommended by Kickstarter, Fred has decided to label me a troll and refused to address them.

What backers can do

Explore the project page. It should tell you everything you need to know, including details about the project and information about the creator who’s vouching for it. Don’t forget to read the comments (to see what others are saying) and any updates (to see how the creator communicates with backers). The “Risks and Challenges” section is especially worth a look.

Read what others say. If you’re not sure about something, you can look elsewhere on the web. Does the creator have an online presence, or past work you can look at? Do people say good things about them? If you’re curious about the thing they’re creating, you can look into that, too. Has it been tried before? What happened then?

Ask questions. If there’s something you want to know about a project, ask the creator — there’s an “ask” button at the bottom of each project page. And if you come across anything suspicious, just let us know — there’s a “report this project” button on each page. That feedback helps us make sure no one’s trying to abuse the system.

weeble1000 wrote:


First, Fred has said that he is "selling a [finished] game." That doesn't necessarily square with Kickstarter's terms and conditions, nor the explicit, written contract between backers and project creators.

I think we can agree that a game being "finished" is far different than a game being "produced." To produce the game to the quality standards they want is probably going to be high, which is where the funds from the KS are needed.

Second, Fred has said that "Monolith will not provide any income for us," which I presume means that he and others are not paid employees of Monolith. Either that or he meant Monolith would not be making a profit, but I don't think that's what he meant from the context. If it was, then that is also what I meant by Monolith "not making any money," and those concerns were evaded rather than answered in a straightforward manner.

Further, if Fred is an owner of Monolith, saying that it isn't about money for him because the company is not paying him an income is somewhat less than straightforward. If he owns all or part of the company, and the value of that company increases, Fred would likely benefit financially. In fact, depending on the specifics of the operating agreement, if Fred was an owner of Monolith, he could directly receive a portion of the Kickstarter funds perfectly well within the bounds of Kickstarter's terms and conditions.

I guess, and I don't intend for this to be flippant or rude, but I guess I'm not sure why that even concerns you. I don't quite follow how the company value, or how they pay their employees, is really any of the concern of the backer. For me, in regards to money from the KS is being spent, all I expect in regards to transparency is a pie chart that breaks down estimate costs for the game's production. You know, like this:



If a project doesn't have that am I overly concerned? No. But those charts do help allay any fears with projects from less well known publishers.

Third, Fred has stated that the Kickstarter campaign is necessary to allow Monolith to offer a 'proper' version of the Conan product at a price point that is not viable via retail. I have asked for that statement to be substantiated, and the associated questions I posed have not been addressed by Monolith, either in whole or in part.

Having posed these important questions, as recommended by Kickstarter, Fred has decided to label me a troll and refuse to address those questions.

Again, I'm not entirely convinced that's any of our business as backers. I understand that we disagree on this point, and that's okay. As you've alluded to, and as Kickstarter has made clear, backers are NOT investors, nor are they consumers. KS Backers are effectively giving charitable donations (speaking of.....can I write KS funding OFF?!?! ).

I don't disagree with you that transparency is good in a project. We do disagree on the level of detail owed to us in that transparency, and we certainly disagree about early birds.

 cincydooley wrote:

I guess, and I don't intend for this to be flippant or rude, but I guess I'm not sure why that even concerns you. I don't quite follow how the company value, or how they pay their employees, is really any of the concern of the backer.

It should absolutely be the concern of the backer, due to the nature of crowdfunding. But more importantly, it speaks to the willingness of the project creator to be honest and straightforward, which you said had been done. Making misleading statements is not being honest, direct, and straightforward.

Fred Henry wrote:
Weeble I don't understand the problem with my statement. I think you misunderstand what I exactly mean (probably because of my broken english).
I want to do a big KS, because I want to do something big. What I want is that people remember Conan in the same way I remember Heroquest. I want the game to be something important. It s why I want the game "in the proper hands". We all have other ways to earn our life. Monolith will not provide any income for us. I'm at the origin of Monolith and I don't need Monolith for living. I need Monolith for doing something really big. And yes, I'm not begging for money : I m selling a game. A finished game. That s really different. People who will pledge will do it because they think the deal is fair enough. If they are not convinced by the deal I don t want them spending their money in something they dont want. I want the maximum of "interested by the game himself" people.

Just a few minor points:

* If you want "big", you want to attract more backers. Which means you need to accommodate more of their demands, from EB's to resins. OTOH, If you're going for "the best we can do with what we have", certainly a more narrowly focused KS is not a bad thing, especially for your first project. Cthulhu Wars offered miniatures, but had so few takers that the offering was not worth it (the prices were on the high side, and some pledge levels were a better price).

* If your selling point was "the game", focusing the pre-launch campaign on the sculpts was not the way to do it. It's easier, but that's not how you sell gameplay. Dark Darker Darkest, I think, did a good job on explaining the game before launch, although they made other mistakes that hurt the campaign. We've already discussed how much of a stink boardgamers on BGG will make about EB's. If you're selling a "game", you don't want these discussions from boardgamers derailing your work.

* EDIT: Check your ego in at the door. Anything negative you say can cost you hundreds of dollars in funding. Anything negative posters defending your stance may cost you even more. Again, you don't want to affect your campaign with a few negative words. See points 2 and 4 of this article, but also keep 3 in mind: http://www.raintoday.com/blog/check-your-ego-at-the-door-and-other-business-growth-tips/

 cincydooley wrote:

Again, I'm not entirely convinced that's any of our business as backers. I understand that we disagree on this point, and that's okay. As you've alluded to, and as Kickstarter has made clear, backers are NOT investors, nor are they consumers. KS Backers are effectively giving charitable donations (speaking of.....can I write KS funding OFF?!?! ).

I don't disagree with you that transparency is good in a project. We do disagree on the level of detail owed to us in that transparency, and we certainly disagree about early birds.

I am not making a statement about what level of transparency is owed. I am making a statement about being honest and straightforward. If a project creator is telling backers that the reason for using Kickstarter is X, the project creator should expect to address questions related to that statement, to support it.

It was the project creator's choice to make that statement. In my view, that statement is potentially misleading. From what I understand of production costs, the ways in which that statement could be quite frank are far less than the ways in which it could be less than true, misleading, or outright false.

I have explained why I think it is misleading. Thus far, Monolith has not addressed these concerns. This, also, goes against the Trust and Safety recommendations of Kickstarter that I quoted previously, and which you said that Fred's statement had adequately met.

Be responsive. Do your best to answer backers’ questions and address their concerns, quickly and thoroughly. It’s a great way of showing people that you’re reliable, available, and committed to your project.

My wife just noticed that even Conan's knee has abs...

I have been reading all of these posts and I'm personally getting tired of the negative posts. I'm excited about the game and the miniatures and don't appreciate the negativity of one person on here. As stated, you don't have to support the game, just move on and let the rest of us be excited.

 Ken Oakley wrote:
I have been reading all of these posts and I'm personally getting tired of the negative posts. I'm excited about the game and the miniatures and don't appreciate the negativity of one person on here. As stated, you don't have to support the game, just move on and let the rest of us be excited.

They may feel that others want to know that information, and personally I'm glad they ask the questions they do. Of course it being PVC means I'm waiting for retail anyway.

 Ken Oakley wrote:
I have been reading all of these posts and I'm personally getting tired of the negative posts. I'm excited about the game and the miniatures and don't appreciate the negativity of one person on here. As stated, you don't have to support the game, just move on and let the rest of us be excited.

I get it Ken. It is a fair point to make, and I have been worried about cluttering up the news thread with this stuff. If you are just looking for updates about cool new stuff for the game, it would suck to keep seeing the thread bumped with discussions about the nature of the project, etc.

I'm not sure where a better place to discuss it would be, but I doubt anyone from Monolith is going to chime in anymore in this thread about it. So that'll probably calm it down.

I'm certainly not going to beat a dead horse anymore than I already have. If people want to discuss it, and the discussion is productive, I'll continue discussing it, but I will refrain from returning to the topic on my own initiative. When I was reading through the various BGG threads about the project, those posts by Fred really touched a nerve.

I won't drag anything else into this thread.

Thank you Weeble1000, you are a true gentleman. As a matter of fact, I do appreciate your opinions.

All I know is I really want to get this game but PVC and the super abs on Conan and his knees are keeping my wallet clear of it.

 Sinful Hero wrote:
They may feel that others want to know that information, and personally I'm glad they ask the questions they do. Of course it being PVC means I'm waiting for retail anyway.

Sorta ditto. I'd prefer seeing a business plan for a project, but gave up asking long ago, since pretty much everyone else treats KS like a store and I knew I'd never see such a plan.

Apparently, two partners of Monolith work or worked for Bombyx, and, while plastic miniature KS almost always have delays, never (?) go belly-up like some mental miniature KS have done. The plastic molding process has a barrier to entry that metal and resin miniatures don't.

So, Fred, how about telling us something about your and your partner's business experience? Five days to kill some time before the KS!

 Alex C wrote:
My wife just noticed that even Conan's knee has abs...

Powerful thews are powerful.

 Alpharius wrote:
You, or no one else, have seen a case where "Early Bird" pledge slots 'worked'?

Really?

Those are also some pretty...interesting claims about the campaigns listed.

I'm detecting a bit of...bias in these statements!

Well, none of you guys have shown me any research or conclusions by experienced KS project managers.