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 thenoobbomb wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:
Another optimist left stripped and strangled in the middle of town. Well done, team. Your duty to the republic has been noted.

Which one? The one that came in with nothing but insults?

All the ones! It is our sacred duty to always be unhappy all the time!

Another clear, concise and supported argument from a GW apologist.

Yeah, because everyone that doesn't agree with you is a GW apolagist, just like how every religious person is a nutter

No, but everyone that automatically dismisses all of the criticism thrown at GW as "haterz gonna hate" instead of actually offering any counter points of their own, is a GW apologist.

 thenoobbomb wrote:

Yeah, because everyone that doesn't agree with you is a GW apolagist, just like how every religious person is a nutter

Oh look, another argument against something that nobody is stating. It's almost like there's a consistent pattern with the pro-GW side.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:

Yeah, because everyone that doesn't agree with you is a GW apolagist, just like how every religious person is a nutter

Oh look, another argument against something that nobody is stating. It's almost like there's a consistent pattern with the pro-GW side.

I'm not saying GW isn't doing lots of things wrong.

I find it funny that in every thread like this, the "anti-GW" crowd put forth concise arguments that make sense... and the "anti-anti-GW" crowd come in with "Don't like it stop playing" and "Stop whining the game is great!" and similar anecdotes, and often turn hostile first.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:
Another optimist left stripped and strangled in the middle of town. Well done, team. Your duty to the republic has been noted.

Which one? The one that came in with nothing but insults?

All the ones! It is our sacred duty to always be unhappy all the time!

Another clear, concise and supported argument from a GW apologist.

I have no idea what you're talking about. The other day, I went into the local store and saw two people playing 40k. One of them had a smile on his face! Can you believe that? The nerve of the guy! But don't worry, I took him in the back, smashed a block of concrete over his head and beat him with a steel rod for about an hour before disposing his body in the local lake. You may PM me your thank you card.

WayneTheGame wrote:
I find it funny that in every thread like this, the "anti-GW" crowd put forth concise arguments that make sense... and the "anti-anti-GW" crowd come in with "Don't like it stop playing" and "Stop whining the game is great!" and similar anecdotes, and often turn hostile first.

Sorry for enjoying 40K and saying so instead of spewing forth enough hate to create a new 1d4chan.

 Wilytank wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:
Another optimist left stripped and strangled in the middle of town. Well done, team. Your duty to the republic has been noted.

Which one? The one that came in with nothing but insults?

All the ones! It is our sacred duty to always be unhappy all the time!

Another clear, concise and supported argument from a GW apologist.

I have no idea what you're talking about. The other day, I went into the local store and saw two people playing 40k. One of them had a smile on his face! Can you believe that? The nerve of the guy! But don't worry, I took him in the back, smashed a block of concrete over his head and beat him with a steel rod for about an hour before disposing his body in the local lake. You may PM me your thank you card.

Stop insulting us with this baseless caricature. It's neither accurate nor helpful.

 thenoobbomb wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
I find it funny that in every thread like this, the "anti-GW" crowd put forth concise arguments that make sense... and the "anti-anti-GW" crowd come in with "Don't like it stop playing" and "Stop whining the game is great!" and similar anecdotes, and often turn hostile first.

Sorry for enjoying 40K and saying so instead of spewing forth enough hate to create a new 1d4chan.

Nobody is saying you can't enjoy 40k, but the "anti-anti-GW" crowd tend to not put any argument forth or even acknowledge that some people have issues. It's always "stop whining" or just dismissing anything saying 40k isn't great as "nerd rage" instead of seeing the point, even if you don't experience it yourself.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
I find it funny that in every thread like this, the "anti-GW" crowd put forth concise arguments that make sense... and the "anti-anti-GW" crowd come in with "Don't like it stop playing" and "Stop whining the game is great!" and similar anecdotes, and often turn hostile first.

Sorry for enjoying 40K and saying so instead of spewing forth enough hate to create a new 1d4chan.

Nobody is saying you can't enjoy 40k, but the "anti-anti-GW" crowd tend to not put any argument forth or even acknowledge that some people have issues. It's always "stop whining" or just dismissing anything saying 40k isn't great as "nerd rage" instead of seeing the point, even if you don't experience it yourself.

It is "nerd-rage" if you...


You know what, no. I'm done with the 40K board here. Whatever I say I'll likely get called a GW fanboy anyway, because I don't ebay, proxy and don't play non-GW Wargames, or just generally hate 40K.

WayneTheGame wrote:
I find it funny that in every thread like this, the "anti-GW" crowd put forth concise arguments that make sense... and the "anti-anti-GW" crowd come in with "Don't like it stop playing" and "Stop whining the game is great!" and similar anecdotes, and often turn hostile first.

I find it funny that the same folks that have already admitted to not even trying the new rules, have been here literally, every day, basing GW for, at least, the last 3 weeks that I've been looking. In what other capacity, outside of 40k, would this not be considered nonsense, seriously?

And when the 'sky has been falling' for nearly 30 years, maybe it is smart to just move on cuz 40k is not your game.

If I'm a "White Knight" for liking 40k and GW as a company, then someone better get a squire in here. I need my armour polished! You have my support OP.

There have been GW haters since the begining. This idea that there was ever a time when everyone was cool with GW is a myth. Every codex, every new edition has always been met with cries of the sky falling, and it hasn't happened yet.

 thenoobbomb wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
I find it funny that in every thread like this, the "anti-GW" crowd put forth concise arguments that make sense... and the "anti-anti-GW" crowd come in with "Don't like it stop playing" and "Stop whining the game is great!" and similar anecdotes, and often turn hostile first.

Sorry for enjoying 40K and saying so instead of spewing forth enough hate to create a new 1d4chan.

Nobody is saying you can't enjoy 40k, but the "anti-anti-GW" crowd tend to not put any argument forth or even acknowledge that some people have issues. It's always "stop whining" or just dismissing anything saying 40k isn't great as "nerd rage" instead of seeing the point, even if you don't experience it yourself.

It is "nerd-rage" if you...


You know what, no. I'm done with the 40K board here. Whatever I say I'll likely get called a GW fanboy anyway, because I don't ebay, proxy and don't play non-GW Wargames, or just generally hate 40K.

Because you have nothing to say other than "I find the game is fine, stop whining about it" which basically dismisses any complaint as "whining" which is insulting.

 thenoobbomb wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:

Yeah, because everyone that doesn't agree with you is a GW apolagist, just like how every religious person is a nutter

Oh look, another argument against something that nobody is stating. It's almost like there's a consistent pattern with the pro-GW side.

I'm not saying GW isn't doing lots of things wrong.

I'm not saying you did say that. Just that you dismissed the point of the person you quoted, who was addressing a very negative person saying that the side he doesn't agree with is apparently trying to actively ruin the fun of the game to the point that we'd commit violence for someone smiling.

You made a comment against something that wasn't being stated.

 thenoobbomb wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
I find it funny that in every thread like this, the "anti-GW" crowd put forth concise arguments that make sense... and the "anti-anti-GW" crowd come in with "Don't like it stop playing" and "Stop whining the game is great!" and similar anecdotes, and often turn hostile first.

Sorry for enjoying 40K and saying so instead of spewing forth enough hate to create a new 1d4chan.

Nobody is saying you can't enjoy 40k, but the "anti-anti-GW" crowd tend to not put any argument forth or even acknowledge that some people have issues. It's always "stop whining" or just dismissing anything saying 40k isn't great as "nerd rage" instead of seeing the point, even if you don't experience it yourself.

It is "nerd-rage" if you...


You know what, no. I'm done with the 40K board here. Whatever I say I'll likely get called a GW fanboy anyway, because I don't ebay, proxy and don't play non-GW Wargames, or just generally hate 40K.

No one's said anything like that. (Yet again, someone arguing against something that nobody said.)

 Gunzhard wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
I find it funny that in every thread like this, the "anti-GW" crowd put forth concise arguments that make sense... and the "anti-anti-GW" crowd come in with "Don't like it stop playing" and "Stop whining the game is great!" and similar anecdotes, and often turn hostile first.

I find it funny that the same folks that have already admitted to not even trying the new rules, have been here literally, every day, basing GW for, at least, the last 3 weeks that I've been looking. In what other capacity, outside of 40k, would this not be considered nonsense, seriously?

And when the 'sky has been falling' for nearly 30 years, maybe it is smart to just move on cuz 40k is not your game.

Because people can read? You don't have to play with the new rules if you read them and see garbage. Also, people keep trotting out this "sky is falling for 30 years" stuff all the time, but length of time in business doesn't mean squat. Remember TSR? How long were they in business? How fast did they fall? It was gradually for sure. GW is going down the same path TSR did.

And yet again the "Don't like it? Don't play" comment rears its ugly head. Because it's all black and white, right?

Just came back to the game a few days ago, have been gone since mid-late 5th edition. The game most definitely has its issues, but in my opinion, many of these things can easily be overlooked and forgiven, except for the damn pricing.

The way I see it, codices change, they won't always be what they were back in the day, this is fine.

Rules could be written better than they are now, but it takes minimal effort to understand any of the poor wording and intent offered by GW.

Balance issues are another issue, but most of the players I played with back in the day simply made top tier lists anyway so we always had the best thing available to us at the time so there wasn't too much of an issue.

I haven't seen these apologists you keep mentioning. I've seen players who like the game not understand why people who quit the game still rant and rave about it and why those who hate the game still play.

I didn't like 5th for the most part, the prices were beginning to get annoying so I left the game cold turkey.

That's what you do. If you don't like something, remove yourself from the situation, you don't go back to the game or even to the community where you played until you've given yourself ample time to take a step back.

I understand that many of you are simply, "Stating what we feel is wrong with the game using legitimate facts and data to support our positions."

This is fine, but first and foremost, you are upset because of what the game is, not how it has become. The game has always had issues, going back to at least 4th when I began with my first Ork army, a lot of those issues, still there and that was what, 12 or so years ago?

Prices were expensive then for what they were offering at the time, it stands to reason that the prices would be similar if not more over a decade later.

Yeah, also. I have fun most of the time when playing 40k so... I don't know if that's good or bad...

Does the OP have a point? Yes he does, and it's reflected in other similar threads as well, like for example the "I feel like GW just can't win" thread.

I admit that even as a new player, I recognize the shortcomings and flaws of 40k. It only takes a little bit of reading, especially in old WD mags, to know that the game wasn't always like this. But you know what it's not the be all end all. Sure right now I have a ton of Space Marines to paint, but eventually I'll probably pick up a few other games as well. Does GW drive me away from 40k with bad rules and mismanagement? Hell yeah they do, but they also offer a quality product that I have become very fond of, so I weigh my options.

I can either stop playing 40k altogether, write off my collection and start over. Seems pretty spiteful considering GW doesn't give two flying pigs about my business, so why bother quitting? I have easy access to the old books, and you know most of these models will probably be worth money someday when the company finally folds. So I'll just shut up, keep painting and rolling dice. One day my kid will have some really cool toys to play with. In the meantime, I'll be enjoying my time and my hobby.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
I find it funny that in every thread like this, the "anti-GW" crowd put forth concise arguments that make sense... and the "anti-anti-GW" crowd come in with "Don't like it stop playing" and "Stop whining the game is great!" and similar anecdotes, and often turn hostile first.

Sorry for enjoying 40K and saying so instead of spewing forth enough hate to create a new 1d4chan.

Nobody is saying you can't enjoy 40k, but the "anti-anti-GW" crowd tend to not put any argument forth or even acknowledge that some people have issues. It's always "stop whining" or just dismissing anything saying 40k isn't great as "nerd rage" instead of seeing the point, even if you don't experience it yourself.

I see your point, I had your issues. I stopped playing for years. Not one peep about it from me, not a single complaint or whine. I damn sure didn't go onto an internet forum to express my emotional state about the game. What would that have even accomplished?

Those who are unhappy with GW and have stopped playing, honestly have no leg to stand on in this discussion as a whole imo, you quit long ago, why the hell are you even in a forum that is mostly for 40k? Not saying you can't talk about it, but why would you?

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:
If I'm a "White Knight" for liking 40k and GW as a company, then someone better get a squire in here. I need my armour polished! You have my support OP.

There have been GW haters since the begining. This idea that there was ever a time when everyone was cool with GW is a myth. Every codex, every new edition has always been met with cries of the sky falling, and it hasn't happened yet.

Tell that to the people currently trying to organize 40k tournaments around here, because most months they are unable to find enough people to meet the minimum number of players (4)... From where I'm standing, the sky has already fallen on GW's head.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
I find it funny that in every thread like this, the "anti-GW" crowd put forth concise arguments that make sense... and the "anti-anti-GW" crowd come in with "Don't like it stop playing" and "Stop whining the game is great!" and similar anecdotes, and often turn hostile first.

I find it funny that the same folks that have already admitted to not even trying the new rules, have been here literally, every day, basing GW for, at least, the last 3 weeks that I've been looking. In what other capacity, outside of 40k, would this not be considered nonsense, seriously?

And when the 'sky has been falling' for nearly 30 years, maybe it is smart to just move on cuz 40k is not your game.

Because people can read? You don't have to play with the new rules if you read them and see garbage. Also, people keep trotting out this "sky is falling for 30 years" stuff all the time, but length of time in business doesn't mean squat. Remember TSR? How long were they in business? How fast did they fall? It was gradually for sure. GW is going down the same path TSR did.

And yet again the "Don't like it? Don't play" comment rears its ugly head. Because it's all black and white, right?

Actually it is. It is, what is the proper phrase I'm thinking of, it's not Common Sense, it's....oh yes, its Obvious. When you do not like something, what you must then to do relieve the situation is Obvious. Remove yourself from it. It isn't much difficult than that.

Can we clear the air for a moment and actually consider what's been said?

The "negative" side never said at all that you can't have fun with the game. Most of the time it's just been "we are allowed to have opinions too"

The response has been ranging from "leave the game" to "stop complaining" to "you like to smash people's teeth in for smiling"

Can you have fun with the game? Yes! Absolutely. I still play the game and try to have fun with it.

Are there negatives? Many! I have had several very one sided games simply because of bad balance in the system and that has led to many games that weren't fun. The games take an hour or more at least and that's a lot of time of not having fun because of a pre-existing issue that will not be fixed.

Rompope wrote:
Just came back to the game a few days ago, have been gone since mid-late 5th edition. The game most definitely has its issues, but in my opinion, many of these things can easily be overlooked and forgiven, except for the damn pricing.

The way I see it, codices change, they won't always be what they were back in the day, this is fine.

Rules could be written better than they are now, but it takes minimal effort to understand any of the poor wording and intent offered by GW.

Balance issues are another issue, but most of the players I played with back in the day simply made top tier lists anyway so we always had the best thing available to us at the time so there wasn't too much of an issue.

I haven't seen these apologists you keep mentioning. I've seen players who like the game not understand why people who quit the game still rant and rave about it and why those who hate the game still play.

I didn't like 5th for the most part, the prices were beginning to get annoying so I left the game cold turkey.

That's what you do. If you don't like something, remove yourself from the situation, you don't go back to the game or even to the community where you played until you've given yourself ample time to take a step back.

I understand that many of you are simply, "Stating what we feel is wrong with the game using legitimate facts and data to support our positions."

This is fine, but first and foremost, you are upset because of what the game is, not how it has become. The game has always had issues, going back to at least 4th when I began with my first Ork army, a lot of those issues, still there and that was what, 12 or so years ago?

Prices were expensive then for what they were offering at the time, it stands to reason that the prices would be similar if not more over a decade later.

I like your post and commend you on your positive attitude.
But the one thing I take issue is the highlighted part. Go back and read the posts of people coming in and calling everyone with a complaint mindless haters. Those are the apologists. People like you I have no beef with at all and I hope you continue to have fun and enjoy the hobby like I once did. I still love 40k, but I don't like what GW is doing to it. I'm hoping it will again return to something I can enjoy. (So I'm holding on to my SOB army I've been collecting since 2nd.)

Rompope wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
I find it funny that in every thread like this, the "anti-GW" crowd put forth concise arguments that make sense... and the "anti-anti-GW" crowd come in with "Don't like it stop playing" and "Stop whining the game is great!" and similar anecdotes, and often turn hostile first.

Sorry for enjoying 40K and saying so instead of spewing forth enough hate to create a new 1d4chan.

Nobody is saying you can't enjoy 40k, but the "anti-anti-GW" crowd tend to not put any argument forth or even acknowledge that some people have issues. It's always "stop whining" or just dismissing anything saying 40k isn't great as "nerd rage" instead of seeing the point, even if you don't experience it yourself.

I see your point, I had your issues. I stopped playing for years. Not one peep about it from me, not a single complaint or whine. I damn sure didn't go onto an internet forum to express my emotional state about the game. What would that have even accomplished?

Those who are unhappy with GW and have stopped playing, honestly have no leg to stand on in this discussion as a whole imo, you quit long ago, why the hell are you even in a forum that is mostly for 40k? Not saying you can't talk about it, but why would you?

I obviously can't speak for others, for me it's because I continually consider trying it again. I picked up Warmachine and while it's a good game as far as games go, something about it just feels bland and soulless; I can't get "into" it beyond as a game. I played a demo of Bolt Action over the weekend which felt more like 40k than 40k, and will likely start playing that but historical gaming only gets you so far, and you don't have the customizability. I love the background of 40k, I even like the models (not the price, however). I can't stand GW, and from what I've read of the rules (I have 7th edition digital on my iPad) they are an absolute mess with too many random mechanics that aren't even good random like 2nd edition had.

So to answer your question, I frequent the forum to keep up with what's going on. There's a 40k community at my FLGS if I desired to play again (I just have things to assemble :p), just I have no love for GW or what they've done to the game. Sure, 40k was never really balanced but it sure as hell seemed more balanced pre-6th edition; not without its flaws, but GW at least then pretended to care - I recall some White Dwarfs from 2009 or so where they still talked about how things would impact tournament play and how they needed to keep things fairly balanced. At some point they just abandoned that completely and said screw it, let's just milk people for money until the jig is up.

PhantomViper wrote:

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:
If I'm a "White Knight" for liking 40k and GW as a company, then someone better get a squire in here. I need my armour polished! You have my support OP.

There have been GW haters since the begining. This idea that there was ever a time when everyone was cool with GW is a myth. Every codex, every new edition has always been met with cries of the sky falling, and it hasn't happened yet.

Tell that to the people currently trying to organize 40k tournaments around here, because most months they are unable to find enough people to meet the minimum number of players (4)... From where I'm standing, the sky has already fallen on GW's head.

Almost a worthless argument because:

1. Your area doesn't represent the 40k community as a whole.
2. The majority of GW players do not attend tournaments.

It'd probably help if all sides stopped using terms like GW haters and White knights.

I don't hate GW. I have plenty of issues, but I can still roll dice with my friends. I just feel like I'm enjoying the game in spite of the rules rather than because of them, in a simplified form.

It should be noted that being negative about the negativity isn't making the boards any less negative.

Unfortunately, discussions aren't math based, so two negatives don't make a positive.

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:
If I'm a "White Knight" for liking 40k and GW as a company, then someone better get a squire in here. I need my armour polished! You have my support OP.

There have been GW haters since the begining. This idea that there was ever a time when everyone was cool with GW is a myth. Every codex, every new edition has always been met with cries of the sky falling, and it hasn't happened yet.

Tell that to the people currently trying to organize 40k tournaments around here, because most months they are unable to find enough people to meet the minimum number of players (4)... From where I'm standing, the sky has already fallen on GW's head.

Almost a worthless argument because:

1. Your area doesn't represent the 40k community as a whole.
2. The majority of GW players do not attend tournaments.

At the same time though, the counter argument of "40k is booming in my area" is just as worthless. I think the 40k community *as a whole* is declining, slowly but surely.

Rompope wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
I find it funny that in every thread like this, the "anti-GW" crowd put forth concise arguments that make sense... and the "anti-anti-GW" crowd come in with "Don't like it stop playing" and "Stop whining the game is great!" and similar anecdotes, and often turn hostile first.

Sorry for enjoying 40K and saying so instead of spewing forth enough hate to create a new 1d4chan.

Nobody is saying you can't enjoy 40k, but the "anti-anti-GW" crowd tend to not put any argument forth or even acknowledge that some people have issues. It's always "stop whining" or just dismissing anything saying 40k isn't great as "nerd rage" instead of seeing the point, even if you don't experience it yourself.

I see your point, I had your issues. I stopped playing for years. Not one peep about it from me, not a single complaint or whine. I damn sure didn't go onto an internet forum to express my emotional state about the game. What would that have even accomplished?

Those who are unhappy with GW and have stopped playing, honestly have no leg to stand on in this discussion as a whole imo, you quit long ago, why the hell are you even in a forum that is mostly for 40k? Not saying you can't talk about it, but why would you?

This forum isn't just for 40k, there is a whole bunch of sub-forums dedicated to other miniature wargames as well. I got into dakka when I was more heavilly invested in GW games, I still stay ehre because I'm now invested in those other wargames that Dakka also caters to.

I talk about how bad 40k and GW is, because this is a discussion forum and its basically fun to engage in such intellectual exercises (and I'm bored at work)(and in the vain hope that GW reads this and takes the games back to what they were in 5th ed 40k and 6th ed WHFB).

PhantomViper wrote:


Tell that to the people currently trying to organize 40k tournaments around here, because most months they are unable to find enough people to meet the minimum number of players (4)... From where I'm standing, the sky has already fallen on GW's head.

Same boat here. Even the initial low ball easy 1k tournaments to ease people into the new rule set. Either people didn't want to fork over $85 for the new book or just didn't care. We've had about 3 tournaments canceled since 7th was announced. Apathy is what will kill the game here.

I agree with the OP as well. It’s one thing if you buy a product, play a game, and want to discuss your negative feelings about it. You are an active member of the gaming community and you're contributing to that community in a constructive way. It’s nonsensical to go onto a gaming forum for a game you vehemently hate and DO NOT EVEN PLAY because you dislike it so much just to spew your dissatisfaction. It’s the very definition of a troll. To those people who dislike WH40K so much and have moved onto the Warhmahordes or whatever game strikes your fancy, that’s great. Stop clicking on the WH40K general discussion and go over to your forum. Stop wasting your time with a product you don't use, stop throwing in your two cents when you aren't even participating in the game anymore. It’s like an atheist attending church just so they can put down all the religious people attending.

I like Wh40k and I come to these forums to read about the hobby I enjoy. I don't like having to weed through posts in threads created by people who don't even play Wh40K so I can actually read something relevant to my hobby.

These are the mistakes GW has made with 40K in my opinion so far.

1) Making high quality model with tons of customisation options and posing and thus making them much more costly than other similar models. You can traduce that by assuming that a very large portion of their consumer are gamers who wants good looking pawns not high quality yet simple models.

2) Perpetual growth strategy. Since I started to play 40K 15 years ago, armies have gotten about 6 new entries each and there are now three new factions and keeps getting larger. Thus, balancing the game gets harder and harder.

3) Creating a rule system that want to be has sand box has possible. That forces the gaming community in forming gaming clubs with a defined vision of what a game of 40K should look like, what should an army list look like, what type of battle should be played etc. This especially hurt gamers without friends with similar opinions on the subject or with no friend in 40K at all.

4) Giving enough freedom to the player to allow them being stupid with their own game. The classic example would be Lords of War. You can bring them in small games now! That is so broken, there is no way I will kill it with my army and I don’t want to pay for a Lord of War myself! What will I do, this is bull****. Can they be fun to play with? Yes. Can they be fun to fight against? Yes, if the scenario is tailored for such a thing. The main issue is not the right to have them and use them but the way you use them. During the 19th century, duels were legal. You could use pistol or sword. The custom though was to let the offended choose the weapon and bring the same one. No one wants to duel a man with a gun with a sword after all. Same goes for 40K and for many it makes thing very complicated.

In the end, has competion gets harder and harder in that kind of niche hobbie, company have to find their spot to survive for they can't eat everybody. GW has choosen the path of least resistence. They want their tabletop game to look like a DnD game with more miniature. They want more freedom in the type of game you play. They want more modelist and collector oriented clients and not has much tournament style gamer. Supplements are mostly made for the latter, you can easily enjoy your game without them. This is why lots of people whine, because many of them got into 40K before this decision was made and they feel like they spent money on nothing. Sometime you can't win. But, tomorrow may be brighter for these persons.