I'm tired of all the negativity

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**Wayniac**

My FLGS still has people interested in starting 40k, without anyone really to steer them clear, but I think it's coming; starting 40k from scratch now is IMO insane to bother with. We had a Bolt Action demo game Sunday and like 15 people showed up to try it out, a few of us bought starter sets. Still no Warmachine (the store doesn't even stock it any more that I can see) though, and the people who played Malifaux disappeared months ago. So it's very slow going here, people still care about 40k and don't realize how bad it is yet - I think it's because either they've put a lot into it so don't want to realize it's bad, or just have no idea about anything else because they "like 40k" so can't see past that.

**Azreal13**

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/602120.page

Did this (locked) thread that you created recently not serve exactly the same purpose?

**Yonan**

MWHistorian wrote:
Also, I'm intentionally scaring off potential new players to other games.

If GW wants positive word of mouth they can damn well earn it. As is I'll try to save people some money by directing them to better games. I'll happily direct them back to 40k once GW plays nice again.

**slowthar**

Purifier wrote:
GW have messed up 40k beyond all recognition. They're doing just fine on Fantasy still. It's a good game, and the Triumph and Treachery addition was very well received.

The feeling in the Fantasy side is more "God I hope they don't start giving fantasy the 40k treatment."

the so called "GW haters" have good reason to be angry. They've often invested thousands of dollars in a game that is now close to unplayable unless you sit down with your friends and start figuratively ripping pages out of the rulebook and replacing them with your own.

You can't have a game where you have to make so many house rules to make it work that the rules of the game will differ wildly from playgroup to playgroup.

If the product was only as god-awful as it is, maybe I would be in the apologist corner, but the attitude towards the gamers is so abyssal too. They do nothing to apologise for their utter mess of rules they've made, but rather they make it even worse and then tell you that you're playing the game wrong because you're using the rules they've provided, telling you that you should be "forging a narrative!"

They know everyone wants the rules and only the rules. But even they know charging the prices they want for a small book of only the rules would be bananas, so they force you to buy two more books that you don't want.
If they had any notion that people wanted those books they would sell all three separately as obviously if the quality and substance of the other books were worth the money people would still buy it.
They know only a sliver of a minority would.

I really can't understand the apologist crowd. The sheer amount of mistreatment we're receiving from GW is like a daily kick in the teeth.

GW is not a terrible company. They have provided us with absolutely stunning models of fantastic quality. They're priced to reflect it, but that doesn't change the fact that they are amazing.
They have given us a very good Fantasy ruleset.

But they have also completely manhandled their whole 40k fanbase, and for that they should get the hate they deserve.

I wouldn't recommend the game to anyone. Even Fantasy I'd warn people that while it's good now, GW has such a poor track record that you shouldn't get in to it if you aren't prepared for the worst.

Awesome post.

It's not that they're incompetent. It's that they're incompetent and also have an air of arrogance about them.

**DanielBeaver**

Random Dude wrote:
It's interesting, many people who talk about what a horrible company GW is continue to play 40k. If GW is SO bad why don't more people switch?

They are. I'm painting up a Circle of Orboros army right now, and getting in a few games of warmahordes. There's still a lot of inertia to play 40k, but It's been interesting to see how much the atmosphere has changed at our FLGS - compared to a couple years ago, there is so much more interest in non-40k miniatures games.

**Murdius Maximus**

I can see the point from both sides. I love the 40K setting and fluff. I love the grimdark. I do love the game for the most part. I have my issues with the rules, but I slog along with them because I love the game and the hobby. For me the painting is cathartic, and nothing feels more awesome than fielding an army of models you put your blood, sweat, and tears into...and then seeing them get blasted to bits xD

On the other hand, I do see the problems that the "haters" have. It is a premium price to pay for a game, and as such, clear rules and attention to fanbase should not be ignored.

At the end of the day, I am happy with 40K. I have my gripes, but for me there is far more love than hate. I don't dock the haters because in a lot of ways they have a legitimate case.

Also, if you are tired of haters, why make a thread that will just flock them in and spew their hatred even more? Just ignore them...

**Yonan**

Murdius Maximus wrote:
At the end of the day, I am happy with 40K. I have my gripes, but for me there is far more love than hate. I don't dock the haters because in a lot of ways they have a legitimate case.

A perfectly reasonable stance. We don't want to reduce peoples enjoyment of the game - I'm glad you're still enjoying it. Though, I'd still request you try not to support the more egregious GW policies such as day one dlc and what not ; p

**Random Dude**

Murdius Maximus wrote:
I can see the point from both sides. I love the 40K setting and fluff. I love the grimdark. I do love the game for the most part. I have my issues with the rules, but I slog along with them because I love the game and the hobby. For me the painting is cathartic, and nothing feels more awesome than fielding an army of models you put your blood, sweat, and tears into...and then seeing them get blasted to bits xD

On the other hand, I do see the problems that the "haters" have. It is a premium price to pay for a game, and as such, clear rules and attention to fanbase should not be ignored.

At the end of the day, I am happy with 40K. I have my gripes, but for me there is far more love than hate. I don't dock the haters because in a lot of ways they have a legitimate case.

Also, if you are tired of haters, why make a thread that will just flock them in and spew their hatred even more? Just ignore them...

Thanks for at least looking at both sides

**PhantomViper**

Purifier wrote:
They're doing just fine on Fantasy still. It's a good game, and the Triumph and Treachery addition was very well received.

The feeling in the Fantasy side is more "God I hope they don't start giving fantasy the 40k treatment.

Huh??

They STARTED their recent 40k trend with Fantasy, that is all that 6th ed. 40k was, the same dumbing down and randomization of rules that GW did with 8th edition Fantasy, the "bigger is better" trend also started with the release of the Storm of Magic supplement, and the ridiculousness of 40k's psychic phase can't hold a candle to the game breaking stupidity of 8th edition's Magic phase! Its the reason why Fantasy has all but disappeared from almost everywhere.

If anything, 8th ed. Fantasy is an even worse game than 40k can ever hope to become.

**DanielBeaver**

Murdius Maximus wrote:
I can see the point from both sides. I love the 40K setting and fluff. I love the grimdark. I do love the game for the most part.

The fluff is 40k's strong point, even with some of the silliness that goes with the territory (WAAAAAARRRDDD!!!)

Interestingly, I've seen a real surge in interest in the 40k RPGs, even as interest in the miniatures game has waned. The setting really lends itself to fun RP sessions, since there's lots of flexibility in atmosphere (you can play up the serious or goofy aspects as needed). As much as "forging the narrative" is an in-joke around here, I really hope that GW wises up and starts embracing some of the storytelling aspects of the game, since they can be a lot of fun. The irony of 40k is that, as much as they talk about "forging the narrative", the main issue people have with 40k is that the ruleset is more "gamey" than it is "narrative". GW may not have intended that, but it's hard to fault a new player who reads through the rulebook for the first time and thinks that this is somehow a balanced, competitive game.

PhantomViper wrote:
Purifier wrote:
They're doing just fine on Fantasy still. It's a good game, and the Triumph and Treachery addition was very well received.

The feeling in the Fantasy side is more "God I hope they don't start giving fantasy the 40k treatment.

Huh??

They STARTED their recent 40k trend with Fantasy, that is all that 6th ed. 40k was, the same dumbing down and randomization of rules that GW did with 8th edition Fantasy, the "bigger is better" trend also started with the release of the Storm of Magic supplement, and the ridiculousness of 40k's psychic phase can't hold a candle to the game breaking stupidity of 8th edition's Magic phase! Its the reason why Fantasy has all but disappeared from almost everywhere.

If anything, 8th ed. Fantasy is an even worse game than 40k can ever hope to become.

Right on. I'm totally mystified as to why people think Fantasy is better than 40k - it's insanely broken, in ways that 40k could only dream of. The magic phase is bonkers, and I was shocked that they used it as a basis for the new 40k psychic phase.

**Archon_Zarbyrn**

Murdius Maximus wrote:
I can see the point from both sides. I love the 40K setting and fluff. I love the grimdark. I do love the game for the most part. I have my issues with the rules, but I slog along with them because I love the game and the hobby. For me the painting is cathartic, and nothing feels more awesome than fielding an army of models you put your blood, sweat, and tears into...and then seeing them get blasted to bits xD

On the other hand, I do see the problems that the "haters" have. It is a premium price to pay for a game, and as such, clear rules and attention to fanbase should not be ignored.

At the end of the day, I am happy with 40K. I have my gripes, but for me there is far more love than hate. I don't dock the haters because in a lot of ways they have a legitimate case.

Also, if you are tired of haters, why make a thread that will just flock them in and spew their hatred even more? Just ignore them...

I guessing he get annoyed of the fact that those who dislike the game and even already sold their armies and quit still feel the need to dampen the mood in various threads. Take a look at a rumor thread for example, tons of whining about prices, how the model looks terrible despite only seeing one picture of it or how GW messed up once again etc. Makes it hard to even bother reading anything or get excited for new releases when every time someone tries to talk about 40k or GW an instant barrage of negativity hits. I not saying people can't have an opinion, but it would be nice to be able to talk about the 40k hobby without so much negativity, I deal with enough crap in life that I don't need to deal with even more of it in what suppose to be a enjoyable way to past the time.

**MWHistorian**

I grew up with 40k. I'd compare every sci-fi universe with 40k and would think "still not as awesome as 40k." I'd get deep into the histories of the different legions and chapters and read about the wars and battles. Me and my brother spent countless hours playing 2nd edition with whatever forces we threw together that day. It was fantastic and still some of my best memories.

But now I just feel sad, like a parent who thought their kid was doing amazing in school finding out their kid got expelled for doing drugs or something. I just feel let down and fooled. The universe that I've loved since I was a kid now just feels cheapened, like I can see the corporate suits behind every decision instead of a living world where marines fight deamon worshiping traitors. Now I see GW trying to sue people for talking about GW or trying to copy write common words and phrases or call their fans nerds whose hobby is to buy more gak from them.

It had ruined the magic for me and now I see the man behind the curtain and I don't like that man at all.
I'm not angry, just disappointed.

**melkorthetonedeaf**

I still think the plastic kits are top-notch compared to more affordable companies.

Buying from your LGS is great all around. The store gets business, you get a discount (or points or whatever), and there is typically a place to play as well.

**Yonan**

melkorthetonedeaf wrote:
Buying from your LGS is great all around. The store gets business, you get a discount (or points or whatever), and there is typically a place to play as well.

Even that isn't good if GW is regionally pricing in your country, making them cost 30%+ more than elsewhere.

**Loborocket**

I am pretty tired of the negativity I see (especially on this forum). It just grows tiresome and tends to be the same sentiments over and over again. Ok we get it, you are not happy. Point taken.

It seems to me the negative feelings for GW are a lot like what you see from Microsoft haters or Apple haters people generally like to express bad feelings towards companies that are LEADERS in their particular industry. Same thing happens to GW. They are the leaders in table top miniature games (or at the very least the name most associated with it) so they catch a lot of negative comments for being the leader. Seems to be just human nature. we feel like the leader in a particular industry is out to get the consumer, does not understand the market, makes poor design decisions, etc... I work for a software company that is the leader in our particular domain and I see all of the same kinds of negative stuff about us. I can tell you for the most part the negative feeling are pretty unfounded.

Are there things about 40k I would change? For sure there are, but for me it has the one thing going for it that other games do not have a VAST player base. At least in my area it is way easier to find other players and games of 40k than any other game. can I find them if I looked, probably, but it is just WAYYY easier to find a 40k game. For me that is really what it is about. Finding someone else to play a game with and interact, have a beer, have some fun away from a screen every once and awhile. Other games could offer that, but it is just more work to find other players than I want to invest.

So I will continue to play 40k, buy GW rules and models and enjoy myself.

What I do find myself doing less and less of is reading the negative stuff posted to this forum.

**Gunzhard**

Random Dude wrote:
I know GW has made many questionable decisions. But let's be honest it's impossible to satisfy everyone. I'm just so fed up with the constant complaining about everything GW does. This general air of negativity makes the 40k community seem very unaccepting, and I think scares off potential new players. Stop trying to point out every single thing that is wrong with a company and start trying to have fun for a change. After all isn't that why you started 40k in the first place?

Your first mistake is coming here to make a statement. I never understood why Dakka had such a bad reputation because I'd always looked only in the modeling/painting forum, but a few weeks in 'General' and - I get it lol.

Even one of the mods here is a major contributor to the nonsense nerd-rage and will likely close this thread while that other 'whine' thread has reached over 41 pages with no end in sight.

I'm tired of the negativity too but, if you are looking for reasonable discussion, you've come to the wrong place.

**MWHistorian**

Gunzhard wrote:
Random Dude wrote:
I know GW has made many questionable decisions. But let's be honest it's impossible to satisfy everyone. I'm just so fed up with the constant complaining about everything GW does. This general air of negativity makes the 40k community seem very unaccepting, and I think scares off potential new players. Stop trying to point out every single thing that is wrong with a company and start trying to have fun for a change. After all isn't that why you started 40k in the first place?

Your first mistake is coming here to make a statement. I never understood why Dakka had such a bad reputation because I'd always looked only in the modeling/painting forum, but a few weeks in 'General' and - I get it lol.

Even one of the mods here is a major contributor to the nonsense nerd-rage and will likely close this thread while that other 'whine' thread has reached over 41 pages with no end in sight.

I'm tired of the negativity too but, if you are looking for reasonable discussion, you've come to the wrong place.

I think its the fact that you write it all off as "Nonesense nerd-rage" that's your problem. You don't see what we're saying. And its usually "White Knights" insulting people with complaints that gets threads locked.

**thenoobbomb**

Gunzhard wrote:
Random Dude wrote:
I know GW has made many questionable decisions. But let's be honest it's impossible to satisfy everyone. I'm just so fed up with the constant complaining about everything GW does. This general air of negativity makes the 40k community seem very unaccepting, and I think scares off potential new players. Stop trying to point out every single thing that is wrong with a company and start trying to have fun for a change. After all isn't that why you started 40k in the first place?

Your first mistake is coming here to make a statement. I never understood why Dakka had such a bad reputation because I'd always looked only in the modeling/painting forum, but a few weeks in 'General' and - I get it lol.

Even one of the mods here is a major contributor to the nonsense nerd-rage and will likely close this thread while that other 'whine' thread has reached over 41 pages with no end in sight.

I'm tired of the negativity too but, if you are looking for reasonable discussion, you've come to the wrong place.

Nicely said - neat summary of my opinion too.

Sadly, what you say about general hasn't always been so - I remember that when I was new here, I rarely saw something about how evil GW was. Same with Background, which is now filled with whining over SM and their penises..

The problem may be at GW, but I wouldn't say the internet isn't really exactly helping..

**Yonan**

Gunzhard wrote:
nonsense nerd-rage

You really should look at how you talk before you criticise others. I'd like to see any evidence of Dakka having a bad rep, it's by far the best and most balanced tabletop discussion I've found. If you want an echo chamber I guess it's not ideal though.

**Savageconvoy**

Gunzhard wrote:
the nonsense nerd-rage(...) while that other 'whine' thread has reached over 41 pages with no end in sight.

I'm tired of the negativity too but, if you are looking for reasonable discussion, you've come to the wrong place.

Shall I fetch your armor polish so thou may have the shiniest gleam of all the white knights, my lord?

Seriously, how can you expect to get any respect when you're dismissing the other side with such insulting generalizations. It's like you haven't read a single post from the "negative" side.
And for the record, I'd like to not be called the negative side since I've seen more insulting language used from the pro-GW side. I'm a dissatisfied customer. I have two useless extra books on top of a crappy rule book that I paid good money for and I can't justify the cost with the product.

**MWHistorian**

Yonan wrote:
Gunzhard wrote:
nonsense nerd-rage

You really should look at how you talk before you criticise others. I'd like to see any evidence of Dakka having a bad rep, it's by far the best and most balanced tabletop discussion I've found. If you want an echo chamber I guess it's not ideal though.

People like him believe that if you don't think as he does, there's something wrong with you and thus he has an inherent right to insult you without actually understanding what you're saying.

**Purifier**

DanielBeaver wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:
Purifier wrote:
They're doing just fine on Fantasy still. It's a good game, and the Triumph and Treachery addition was very well received.

The feeling in the Fantasy side is more "God I hope they don't start giving fantasy the 40k treatment.

Huh??

They STARTED their recent 40k trend with Fantasy, that is all that 6th ed. 40k was, the same dumbing down and randomization of rules that GW did with 8th edition Fantasy, the "bigger is better" trend also started with the release of the Storm of Magic supplement, and the ridiculousness of 40k's psychic phase can't hold a candle to the game breaking stupidity of 8th edition's Magic phase! Its the reason why Fantasy has all but disappeared from almost everywhere.

If anything, 8th ed. Fantasy is an even worse game than 40k can ever hope to become.

Right on. I'm totally mystified as to why people think Fantasy is better than 40k - it's insanely broken, in ways that 40k could only dream of. The magic phase is bonkers, and I was shocked that they used it as a basis for the new 40k psychic phase.

Well, if you look at the people that actually play the game, those people enjoy Fantasy. If you ask people that play 40k, most will start with a sigh and ask you where to begin bringing up gripes.

I disagree with you. I don't think Fantasy is broken. If you're gonna play it like 40k, then yes. That doesn't work. You can't just storm ahead and think that's a valid tactic with every army.
In Fantasy you can play around massive losses. In 40k, massive losses means you've got nothing to use once your turn comes.

Fantasy doesn't have the DLC of 40k. Fantasy doesn't have the out of control ally matrix of 40k.

To me, Fantasy is a much much more balanced game. A game that isn't decided by what army you choose to play. 40k is.

Magic phase is incredibly strong, but not as ridiculous as the 40k shooting phase. I don't feel like a game is ever decided by one magic phase. I have however felt that a game has been decided in a single shooting phase in 40k.

All that said, I don't think Fantasy is a perfect system. I just find 40k stressful in how poorly balanced it is, and how swiftly it keeps careening even more out of control. It's like GW has simply let go of the reins and will let it run at break neck speed right into the ditch.
In Fantasy, I feel there is a very good balance, and that it's being kept. None of the new books are either terribly weak or destroying the balance of the rest of the armies.

**Wilytank**

Another optimist left stripped and strangled in the middle of town. Well done, team. Your duty to the republic has been noted.

**darkcloak**

Polonius wrote:
Random Dude wrote:I know GW has made many questionable decisions. But let's be honest it's impossible to satisfy everyone. I'm just so fed up with the constant complaining about everything GW does. This general air of negativity makes the 40k community seem very unaccepting, and I think scares off potential new players. Stop trying to point out every single thing that is wrong with a company and start trying to have fun for a change. After all isn't that why you started 40k in the first place?

Wow. Your comments are a breath of fresh air. I don't think anybody has taken the bold stand that you have. Kudos.

Random Dude wrote:It's interesting, many people who talk about what a horrible company GW is continue to play 40k. If GW is SO bad why don't more people switch?

That's a fascinating and brilliant point. We rarely see such skilled rhetoric around here.

Random Dude wrote:The only thing I don't like about GW is the prices. I don't complain I just buy my models at local wargaming stores with discounts.

That's a poorly understood point. If you do the math, a 10-20% discount completely makes up for prices doubling in 10 years. Most people are just too stupid to realize it.

Wait what? Prices go up 50% but somehow a 10% discount makes up for that?

Maybe someone ought to quote you and act like an donkey-cave towards you? Hey you, you have dumb ideas. Shut them up.

See now, I sound stupid. Thanks. Jerk.

Hey at least I'm joking! These other fools seem like they're ready to exchange addresses and throw down or something.

**MWHistorian**

Wilytank wrote:
Another optimist left stripped and strangled in the middle of town. Well done, team. Your duty to the republic has been noted.

Which one? The one that came in with nothing but insults?

**Azreal13**

Yonan wrote:
Gunzhard wrote:
nonsense nerd-rage

You really should look at how you talk before you criticise others. I'd like to see any evidence of Dakka having a bad rep, it's by far the best and most balanced tabletop discussion I've found. If you want an echo chamber I guess it's not ideal though.

Exactly, the most inflammatory comment in this thread so far, and it originates from somebody accusing others of doing some thing that wasn't happening.

Essentially I think it boils down to the fact that there are so many factors that those who feel negative towards either the game or GW in general can argue with copious amounts of solid evidence and/or reasoning to back it up, that those that disagree can only really drag the discussion into mis-characterisation, ad hominems and strawmen in order to have any basis for argument. (If indeed one could call it a basis for argument.)

I'm not tired of the negativity, I'm able to filter the thoughts and opinions of others on the Internet through my own thoughts and experiences, and reconcile all that with the fact that I do still find something within 40K to enjoy.

What I am tired of is repeatedly reading and responding to the same tired, baseless arguments from those who somehow feel that everyone should be like GW employees and not employ, or at least express, any degree of critical thought. I am tired of defending myself or others from those who feel compelled to defend the indefensible.

**Wilytank**

MWHistorian wrote:
Wilytank wrote:
Another optimist left stripped and strangled in the middle of town. Well done, team. Your duty to the republic has been noted.

Which one? The one that came in with nothing but insults?

All the ones! It is our sacred duty to always be unhappy all the time!

**MWHistorian**

Wilytank wrote:
MWHistorian wrote:
Wilytank wrote:
Another optimist left stripped and strangled in the middle of town. Well done, team. Your duty to the republic has been noted.

Which one? The one that came in with nothing but insults?

All the ones! It is our sacred duty to always be unhappy all the time!

Another clear, concise and supported argument from a GW apologist.

**Yonan**

We're failing you master, we thanked an optimist on this very page : ( We'll try harder!

**thenoobbomb**

MWHistorian wrote:
Wilytank wrote:
MWHistorian wrote:
Wilytank wrote:
Another optimist left stripped and strangled in the middle of town. Well done, team. Your duty to the republic has been noted.

Which one? The one that came in with nothing but insults?

All the ones! It is our sacred duty to always be unhappy all the time!

Another clear, concise and supported argument from a GW apologist.

Yeah, because everyone that doesn't agree with you is a GW apolagist, just like how every religious person is a nutter