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 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
That's all you've got? Show me what things PP have down to earn the same amount of contempt that GW justifiably gets?

Switched to cheapass PVC without reducing prices and sometimes increasing them (basic Cryx Helljack went up 25% in cost when switched to plastic; this was excused by blind rabid fanbois because you got bits for 3 weapon variants - the same people who did not consider extra bits a valid argument in GW's favour)

Made people buy the same model twice (rules on a powerful Circle solo got completely changed in Mk2, then a new model was released with the exact copy of the old model's previous rules)

Axed a "specialist game" in the middle of a release cycle, leaving a large number of fans with half-finished factions and lack of prize support while, to this very day, not showing enough respect to the players to at least give an explanation.

Prima donna, vindictive game developers who take personal offense at criticism. In my specific example, I posted an inappropriate comment about a new model and got suspended for it, fair enough. The next day, I got permabanned. The mod explained that a game developer (PPS_Simon, I believe) put in a personal request to get rid of me).



I'm sorry, but in the last few years PP grew to be big enough to treat its customers with exactly the same kind of contempt GW does. They just haven't been around long enough for the resentment to pile up properly yet. It doesn't help that much of their fanbase are GW converts, and converts are always the most blindly fanatical. Just look at born-again [religion of choice]. Or ex-smokers. Or vegans.

I'm not saying they're infallible. Far from it, but PP are not even close to the vitriol that comes from GW's fanbase as they've turned them on one another. When PP lets their fanbase fight amongst one another and walls themselves up from the internet then they'll be getting to GW levels.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
Why not simply let people hate, if they so obviously enjoy it?

As can see, they would rather hate GW, than play other games (look how much more interest threads like this generate than threads about other games), so it's only testament to GW's power, really. Let 'em do it, I say.

I recommend that you actually read what people are typing.

Would help create a better forum.

Beats classifying people as haters and dismissing what they have to say for no reason other than you don't like it.

My dear friend, I think you've replied to the wrong post. Mine said how it's fine, whatever people say about GW, lovers or haters.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
That's all you've got? Show me what things PP have down to earn the same amount of contempt that GW justifiably gets?

Switched to cheapass PVC without reducing prices and sometimes increasing them (basic Cryx Helljack went up 25% in cost when switched to plastic; this was excused by blind rabid fanbois because you got bits for 3 weapon variants - the same people who did not consider extra bits a valid argument in GW's favour)

No, they've lowered prices in the vast majority of instances, the cases where they didn't were those where the new kits were replacing really old metal models, that due to PP's policy of very rarely making price adjustments meant that they were selling them with prices from close to 10 years ago.

lord_blackfang wrote:
Made people buy the same model twice (rules on a powerful Circle solo got completely changed in Mk2, then a new model was released with the exact copy of the old model's previous rules)

WOW! A single model? You wouldn't say? That's completely outrageous right there!

lord_blackfang wrote:
Axed a "specialist game" in the middle of a release cycle, leaving a large number of fans with half-finished factions and lack of prize support while, to this very day, not showing enough respect to the players to at least give an explanation.

I'm guessing you're talking about Monsterpocalipse over here? Anyway, I don't know about this enough so I can't comment on this.

lord_blackfang wrote:
Prima donna, vindictive game developers who take personal offense at criticism. In my specific example, I posted an inappropriate comment about a new model and got suspended for it, fair enough. The next day, I got permabanned. The mod explained that a game developer (PPS_Simon, I believe) put in a personal request to get rid of me).

With your shiny and positive attitude, I can't possibly understand the reason why!

But the fact that the mod explained to you the reason why and apparently gave you the honest answer is much more than you would get in most other forums.

lord_blackfang wrote:
I'm sorry, but in the last few years PP grew to be big enough to treat its customers with exactly the same kind of contempt GW does. They just haven't been around long enough for the resentment to pile up properly yet. It doesn't help that much of their fanbase are GW converts, and converts are always the most blindly fanatical. Just look at born-again [religion of choice]. Or ex-smokers. Or vegans.

They have? I still use the same models and lists that I bought back in 2003 and they haven't been invalidated in any way. The rules get better with each edition instead of being mere lateral shifts. Their magazine is still full of original content instead of being just a catalogue for the latest shiny. They have an active support program for local communities and tournaments. They haven't sent any C&D to any fan sites that I know of. They are still very, very far from what GW currently is.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:


My dear friend, I think you've replied to the wrong post. Mine said how it's fine, whatever people say about GW, lovers or haters.

No, I replied to the right post.

If you read what people are typing, you'd probably notice people aren't hating. They're a variety of other emotions and feelings, but not hate. Most responses about the state of 40k are stated calmly. If anything, there's an air of disappointment.

So, why don't people stop calling other people haters. Its not conducive to anything, and only looks like you're dismissing anything valid because you dislike due to its potentially negative message.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
That's all you've got? Show me what things PP have down to earn the same amount of contempt that GW justifiably gets?

Switched to cheapass PVC without reducing prices and sometimes increasing them (basic Cryx Helljack went up 25% in cost when switched to plastic; this was excused by blind rabid fanbois because you got bits for 3 weapon variants - the same people who did not consider extra bits a valid argument in GW's favour)

Made people buy the same model twice (rules on a powerful Circle solo got completely changed in Mk2, then a new model was released with the exact copy of the old model's previous rules)

Axed a "specialist game" in the middle of a release cycle, leaving a large number of fans with half-finished factions and lack of prize support while, to this very day, not showing enough respect to the players to at least give an explanation.

Prima donna, vindictive game developers who take personal offense at criticism. In my specific example, I posted an inappropriate comment about a new model and got suspended for it, fair enough. The next day, I got permabanned. The mod explained that a game developer (PPS_Simon, I believe) put in a personal request to get rid of me).



I'm sorry, but in the last few years PP grew to be big enough to treat its customers with exactly the same kind of contempt GW does. They just haven't been around long enough for the resentment to pile up properly yet. It doesn't help that much of their fanbase are GW converts, and converts are always the most blindly fanatical. Just look at born-again [religion of choice]. Or ex-smokers. Or vegans.

I'm not saying they're infallible. Far from it, but PP are not even close to the vitriol that comes from GW's fanbase as they've turned them on one another. When PP lets their fanbase fight amongst one another and walls themselves up from the internet then they'll be getting to GW levels.

That's also because PP hans't been around for 30 years, doesn't have anywhere near the volume of followers/players that GW has, and isn't a publicly traded company. Not as many people are paying attention to them.

Saw a thread where Rick Priestley was talking about sales numbers of rulebooks, and he said that in GWs heyday, they were printing 100,000 rulebooks (3rd edition), and they felt that a print run of 40k was huge. He said that if you're selling 3-5k rulebooks in this industry, you're doing well. Those are incredibly small numbers, pointing out just how niche all of these games are. Its just at GW has been the biggest, with the broadest playerbase, and so receives the lions share of the negative feedback.

And while it is true there are no 'haterz' there are also no 'white knights' or 'casual gaming mafia'. There are people who like the game just fine (I've been playing since 2nd, and was heavy into tournaments up through 5th, and never really had a problem with the game); there are people who like the game but have issues with it (pricing, rules); and there are those who just don't like it. What really boggles is those who just don't like it, but who play it. Or those who don't play it, but continue to mock and complain about it.

As I've aged I've also realized I don't need drama with my 'fun time', and so what I've done is two-fold: cut waay down on my dakka browsing and participation, continue to play 40k with like minded players, and been slowly moving to historicals that don't suffer from creep and rules turnover. Those combined have made for a much more relaxing and much more interesting gaming experience.

 Cruentus wrote:
As I've aged I've also realized I don't need drama with my 'fun time', and so what I've done is two-fold: cut waay down on my dakka browsing and participation, continue to play 40k with like minded players, and been slowly moving to historicals that don't suffer from creep and rules turnover. Those combined have made for a much more relaxing and much more interesting gaming experience.

I wholeheartedly suggest using the Ignore function to further enhance your Dakka experience. It's done wonders for my blood pressure

 Blacksails wrote:
No, I replied to the right post.

If you read what people are typing, you'd probably notice people aren't hating. They're a variety of other emotions and feelings, but not hate. Most responses about the state of 40k are stated calmly. If anything, there's an air of disappointment.

So, why don't people stop calling other people haters. Its not conducive to anything, and only looks like you're dismissing anything valid because you dislike due to its potentially negative message.

I find the emotions to be mainly frustration.

People want to like 40k. They want to play an awesome game with the aesthetics and fluff that 40k has, but are so frustrated that everything else about the game is so awful, whether it's the rules, balance, prices or GW as a company.

 Yonan wrote:

 Nate668 wrote:
Or maybe you won't. But Dakka would be a more enjoyable forum for people who are actively involved in 40k if people like you (I do not mean this as an insult) who do not like 40k and do not play 40k did not come here to the 40k section to complain about 40k.

Considering how little some people seem to care about our enjoyment of the hobby - going so far as to insult us, calling us whiners, bitchers and haters in the OP for example - why would we care much about their enjoyment? It's interesting how your suggestion for us to enjoy the game more neatly coincides with what would make it more enjoyable for you - us leaving here.

 Nate668 wrote:
@BlaxicanX: I recognize that 40k has problems, am willing to admit those problems, and enjoy the game anyway. I have absolutely nothing to do with why the game has problems, which instead lies squarely on the shoulders of GW and it's employees. Don't blame the fact that you don't enjoy something on the people who do enjoy it.

That's exactly what's happening though. Your acceptance of what you admit are bad policies from GW makes you an enabler, and ensure not only that it continues but gets worse. We're not saying you should stop if you enjoy it - just that what you're doing is destroying the hobby ; )

You're right; you, as a person who does not play or enjoy 40k but comes to a 40k forum to complain about it, leaving for a little while would make Dakka a better place, which would in turn make me happier. But I also think it would make you happier as well. I'm not in the business of telling people what to do, but if I think there's some mutual benefit I'll make a suggestion.

And this whole business about how it's wrong that I'm "enabling" GW is ludicrous. 40k brings me happiness, and it is not your place to tell me to stop doing something that makes me happy. The same holds true for my position as well. If bitching on Dakka truly makes you happy, then it is not my place to tell you to stop. I, however, am working under the assumption that putting so much energy and free time into negativity does not make one happy. If this does not hold true for you, then we have a fundamental difference in opinion that we will not be able to reconcile.

 Nate668 wrote:
You're right; you, as a person who does not play or enjoy 40k but comes to a 40k forum to complain about it, leaving for a little while would make Dakka a better place, which would in turn make me happier. But I also think it would make you happier as well.

You do realize there's a lot more to 40k than the tabletop game right? We can dislike the tabletop game, not talk about the tabletop game and still spend a lot of time in this very subforum talking about 40k, be it novels, pc games, models, whatever.

And this whole business about how it's wrong that I'm "enabling" GW is ludicrous.

It's really not. When you reward GW by purchasing their $18 dataslates with 3 lines of new rules in them, you're encouraging them to do more of it.

40k brings me happiness, and it is not your place to tell me to stop doing something that makes me happy.

You even quoted me saying "we're not telling you to stop doing it" so where did this come from?

I don't hate GW (well, I'm not even 2 years in this game), but its business guidance has been terrible. Looks like the company only thinks about short-term strategies to appease the shareholders.

On the other hand, I love the influx of books, supplements adn nesw stuff. Of course, they could (and should) be cheaper

It doesn't help relieve the toxicity of the forum to start with a statement like that.

The sad thing is that some good points are in the post but who will bother to engage with them when you start out with something that will just annoy a lot of readers?

As before, the issue is when people dismiss all complaints as just being "whining" and, worse, tell anyone who has a complaint to just go elsewhere.

The "haters" used to love 40k, and may still love 40k but "hate" Games Workshop for what it's become. It's rude, condescending and not constructive at all to just dismiss all complaints as invalid ranting and raving from lunatics.

None of this changes the fact that GW does not deserve my business. Even if they fixed the rules I wouldn't go back until their corporate attitude changes.

I will not give money to a company that calls its customers "sheep" and think our primary enjoyment is buying their stuff.

Also, I'm deliberately trying to steer people (mostly potential players) from starting or coming back to GW games and going to better games. (almost anything else out there.)

I wish they brought back specialists games.

Due to rules and prices, I don't have much desire to play 40k. I still play fantasy every once and awhile using either the Swede Comp or ETC and generally enjoy it. I don't think I'll ever be able to start a new army from scratch though, I have a family to take care of.

GW makes the best plastics and I really like the 40k universe. They should bring back a skirmish level game. The most expensive trips I have made to GW in the past year have been because of Mordheim and Blood Bowl. I bought a bunch of DE (both elves and eldar) for both of them.

It's not a coincidence that games like Infinity, Deadzone and Dreadball have taken off the past few years. I wonder how many of those players would prefer to play similar games in a 40k/whfb setting?

I don't want GW to fail, I want them to wake up. I want them to earn my money but that doesn't seem likely at this point. My group is having a lot of fun with other games with better rules and cheaper costs.

I don't hate companies, because they're companies. Their job is to make money. I disagree with all of their business practices.

I think that's the big disconnect people have is that they personalize it with GW to the point of being able to "hate" them, and that's kind of emotionally silly.

it's not GW that makes 40K generally a poor game, it's the player base. The constant search for the next "star" or broken combo is what drives the game in the wrong direction. GW could tighten the rules by adding restriction after restriction, but with so many options currently available, it would take a serious commitment and culling to do so. Basically starting from scratch which is almost impossible to do. So what do players do? They abuse the freedom that is provided. Daemonology is a perfect example. It's a great idea to introduce this into 40K, especially with the dark nature of the 40K universe, but then the player base has to find a way to get 30+ summoning dice available. That's the player, not the game. Beastmaster with beasts, how about maybe 5 beasts with your beastmaster? No, player base wants 20+ of them. Etc, etc.
Eldar players told to spam wave serpents with minimal DA sqds inside. OK, aspect warriors in wave serpents are a fluffy feature, but you know the serpent can carry 12 models right?

GW has made the ruleset and the codices pretty flexible (overly so) so that many odd combos can be played to cover the 40K 'verse, and small units allowed so that players can play 500pt games with a mix of units. But it's the player base that has created most of the angst that is associated with the game. There are more TFG than you probably think and you may well be one of them. Hate GW as much as you wish, but first figure out what is truly ruining the game.

 Grimtuff wrote:
I'm getting the strangest feeling of deja vu...

Yet another "attack the supposed 'haterz' thread"

I don't see it as a 'attack the supposed 'haterz' thread', its more like helping haters of GW (no matter how rightfully so) to see the field is greener on the other side.

No point in hating GW for every release if we can direct these people to other, more enjoyible games for a few years. Like the OP said, the most common complaint from GW are rules and price. There are alternatives out there with competitive minded rules and lower costs models. Giving these games a try is more constructive than complaining or hoping the entire Internet will stop buying GW for a month to force them to do something.

Like OP I have done my cycle, from hating what GW did to my BA during 6th, and my DA which never really took off after the helturkey. Now I just aim to finish painting what I have from GW and play casual games. I have moved on to X-wing for really fun games.

bullyboy wrote:
it's not GW that makes 40K generally a poor game, it's the player base. The constant search for the next "star" or broken combo is what drives the game in the wrong direction. GW could tighten the rules by adding restriction after restriction, but with so many options currently available, it would take a serious commitment and culling to do so. Basically starting from scratch which is almost impossible to do. So what do players do? They abuse the freedom that is provided. Daemonology is a perfect example. It's a great idea to introduce this into 40K, especially with the dark nature of the 40K universe, but then the player base has to find a way to get 30+ summoning dice available. That's the player, not the game. Beastmaster with beasts, how about maybe 5 beasts with your beastmaster? No, player base wants 20+ of them. Etc, etc.
Eldar players told to spam wave serpents with minimal DA sqds inside. OK, aspect warriors in wave serpents are a fluffy feature, but you know the serpent can carry 12 models right?

GW has made the ruleset and the codices pretty flexible (overly so) so that many odd combos can be played to cover the 40K 'verse, and small units allowed so that players can play 500pt games with a mix of units. But it's the player base that has created most of the angst that is associated with the game. There are more TFG than you probably think and you may well be one of them. Hate GW as much as you wish, but first figure out what is truly ruining the game.

I think that's an overly simplistic way of looking at it. TFG with his OP Super Morphin' Power List is easy to spot and dismiss. It's the gray areas that cause most of the problem. Take a player that really loves Eldar Guardians. He's loved Guardians since RT times. Well, he needs a way to get them up field to capture objectives, so what does he use? Waveserpents. Now all of a sudden he's a "TFG WAAC Player."

Or the guy that bought four Imperial Knights and has loved them since the yonder Epic days. He shows up and people refuse to play him.

There are so many more examples of these gray areas that aren't easily dismissed. These problems arise from a poorly designed game. The players are just trying to have the most fun in the way they think is best, but not everyone is going to agree on what that is. It's supposed to be the game designers job to create a game everyone can play. Its a failure in design that two normal people can show up for a pickup game with "fluffy" armies that very wildly in power levels so one person just steamrolls the other.

Not good game design. Not the players fault. GW's fault.

bullyboy wrote:
it's not GW that makes 40K generally a poor game, it's the player base. The constant search for the next "star" or broken combo is what drives the game in the wrong direction. GW could tighten the rules by adding restriction after restriction, but with so many options currently available, it would take a serious commitment and culling to do so. Basically starting from scratch which is almost impossible to do. So what do players do? They abuse the freedom that is provided. Daemonology is a perfect example. It's a great idea to introduce this into 40K, especially with the dark nature of the 40K universe, but then the player base has to find a way to get 30+ summoning dice available. That's the player, not the game. Beastmaster with beasts, how about maybe 5 beasts with your beastmaster? No, player base wants 20+ of them. Etc, etc.
Eldar players told to spam wave serpents with minimal DA sqds inside. OK, aspect warriors in wave serpents are a fluffy feature, but you know the serpent can carry 12 models right?

GW has made the ruleset and the codices pretty flexible (overly so) so that many odd combos can be played to cover the 40K 'verse, and small units allowed so that players can play 500pt games with a mix of units. But it's the player base that has created most of the angst that is associated with the game. There are more TFG than you probably think and you may well be one of them. Hate GW as much as you wish, but first figure out what is truly ruining the game.

Warmachine has a similar level of complexity in terms of combinations and synergies. No, the options for different units aren't as complex but each units special rules and how they interact are just as complex, if not more so.

Warmachine has none of the balance issues in 40k. There is no-one taking the equivalent of Wave Serpent spam. There is no-one getting the equivalent of 30+ summoning dice. There is nothing so game breaking that it has to blamed "on the player, not the game".

What is up with the influx of stop being mad at GW threads lately? People come on to forums to complain....its why forums exist.

Oh and for painting and modeling too.

bullyboy wrote:
it's not GW that makes 40K generally a poor game, it's the player base. The constant search for the next "star" or broken combo is what drives the game in the wrong direction. GW could tighten the rules by adding restriction after restriction, but with so many options currently available, it would take a serious commitment and culling to do so. Basically starting from scratch which is almost impossible to do. So what do players do? They abuse the freedom that is provided. Daemonology is a perfect example. It's a great idea to introduce this into 40K, especially with the dark nature of the 40K universe, but then the player base has to find a way to get 30+ summoning dice available. That's the player, not the game. Beastmaster with beasts, how about maybe 5 beasts with your beastmaster? No, player base wants 20+ of them. Etc, etc.
Eldar players told to spam wave serpents with minimal DA sqds inside. OK, aspect warriors in wave serpents are a fluffy feature, but you know the serpent can carry 12 models right?

GW has made the ruleset and the codices pretty flexible (overly so) so that many odd combos can be played to cover the 40K 'verse, and small units allowed so that players can play 500pt games with a mix of units. But it's the player base that has created most of the angst that is associated with the game. There are more TFG than you probably think and you may well be one of them. Hate GW as much as you wish, but first figure out what is truly ruining the game.

I disagree with this. GW and the rules empower the broken combos. Yes, there are some min/max players that immediately dive into new rules or a Codex with the idea of making the next *Star combo, but honestly if the rules weren't so loose and flexible that wouldn't happen, or if it did it wouldn't be as insanely broken. Instead, GW doesn't bother with tight rules, they err on the side of near anarchy by allowing everything, and leaving it up to the players to fix things. This has always been the case - even back in my day I recall the occasional article in White Dwarf about sportsmanship, and how for example taking mainly elite units was "beardy" or "cheesy" play. However, while they acknowledged the issue they never really took the steps to fix it, or rather balance things better to allow it without hurting gameplay (e.g. if you took only elite units, you suffer in other areas such as being outnumbered). Also you have the issue of things such as Wave Serpents which are too good, but fluffy. Should an Eldar player who wants mechanized infantry be penalized for lambasted as "TFG" because they're using the transport option for Eldar? Same with Necrons; the flyer is way OP but a "Cron Air" force is actually fluffy. Things like that blur the line between fluffy and WAAC since it's essentially both. That's GW's fault.

No, it's not the players fault. It's GW's fault. Things like the daemon summoning could have been curbed at a specific number, so could Warp Charges, rather than just left up to whatever and assume that players are going to set arbitrary limits or just not do it because they know it'd be broken. If the rules are broken, then players who exploit them share some of the blame, but ultimately the broken rules falls on the shoulders of the game designers who didn't account for it in the first place. Some exploits you can't find out until they happen (and then good companies issue an errata/FAQ to fix them), but any amount of playtesting or even thinking things through when coming up with the rule in the first place would have revealed that if Warp Charges are unlimited it'd be possible to stack them and summon virtually a second army of daemons.

 Nate668 wrote:

TL;DR: Bitching on Dakka does nothing to change GW.

It may. Forums act as a lightning rod for unhappy communities and the dissatisfaction with GW has reached unprecedented levels. Passing off valid criticisms as 'hate' is sheer folly and it is almost certainly a trap that GW has already fallen into.

The real pictures will lie in GW's annual report which is due to be published in 3 weeks or so; given the train wreck that the half yearly report was, not to mention the preceding 9(?) years of declining sales, it will surely make interesting reading. Complaining about complaining and blithely passing off criticism as mindless ranting is not only bad forum etiquette it is also distinctly myopic.

 Palindrome wrote:

 Nate668 wrote:

TL;DR: Bitching on Dakka does nothing to change GW.

It may. Forums act as a lightning rod for unhappy communities and the dissatisfaction with GW has reached unprecedented levels. Passing off valid criticisms as 'hate' is sheer folly and it is almost certainly a trap that GW has already fallen into.

The real pictures will lie in GW's annual report which is due to be published in 3 weeks or so; given the train wreck that the half yearly report was, not to mention the preceding 9(?) years of declining sales, it will surely make interesting reading. Complaining about complaining and blithely passing off criticism as mindless ranting is not only bad forum etiquette it is also distinctly myopic.

Excellent point. I consider forums like a themometer. It gives you an idea of what's going on. It's not 100% accurate of course, but wide dramatic trends can be seen.
I've been around since RT times and I have NEVER seen the criticisms this bad and this widespread. There is a lot of genuine anger and apathy out there and it shouldn't be ignored. If GW was smart, they'd be paying attention.

bullyboy wrote:
it's not GW that makes 40K generally a poor game, it's the player base. The constant search for the next "star" or broken combo is what drives the game in the wrong direction. ... ...

\

Your logic is inverted.

The reason why some players are able to constantly search for the next broken combo is because GW wrote the game in such as way as to create such exploits.

Many "competitive" players dislike the current 7th edition rules considering them unplayable in a tournament setting precisely because they allow the most astonishing broken combos.

There used to be lots more restrictions on the game.

Oh look at this, another thread bitching about people bitching, while failing to explain how a balanced rule set would ruin beer and pretzels time, or why I can't expect one for the $220 they expect me to spend on the two rule books alone.

People understand that GW isn't listening. The customers are though. As said, "vote with your wallet".

Glad to hear how much GW works for you though nate668. Because that's my main concern when I looked 7th for the first time, I was thinking "damn I hope this edition doesn't negatively affect the level of enjoyment nate668 gets out if his beer and pretzel nights". And I'm sure I speak for the vast majority of all the people not impressed by GW currently as well.

But thanks for making this thread, now all the rest of us can sleep easy. I doubt there will be another anti-GW post in months after this.

Be sure to check back in when 8th drops nate668!

 SHUPPET wrote:
Oh look at this, another thread bitching about people bitching, while failing to explain how a balanced rule set would ruin beer and pretzels time, or why I can't expect one for the $220 they expect me to spend on the two rule books alone.

People understand that GW isn't listening. The customers are though. As said, "vote with your wallet".

Glad to hear how much GW works for you though nate668. Because that's my main concern when I looked 7th for the first time, I was thinking "damn I hope this edition doesn't negatively affect the level of enjoyment nate668 gets out if his beer and pretzel nights". And I'm sure I speak for the vast majority of all the people not impressed by GW currently as well.

But thanks for making this thread, now all the rest of us can sleep easy. I doubt there will be another anti-GW post in months after this.

Be sure to check back in when 8th drops nate668!

My sarcasm radar just exploded!

 SHUPPET wrote:
Oh look at this, another thread bitching about people bitching, while failing to explain how a balanced rule set would ruin beer and pretzels time, or why I can't expect one for the $220 they expect me to spend on the two rule books alone.

People understand that GW isn't listening. The customers are though. As said, "vote with your wallet".

Glad to hear how much GW works for you though nate668. Because that's my main concern when I looked 7th for the first time, I was thinking "damn I hope this edition doesn't negatively affect the level of enjoyment nate668 gets out if his beer and pretzel nights". And I'm sure I speak for the vast majority of all the people not impressed by GW currently as well.

But thanks for making this thread, now all the rest of us can sleep easy. I doubt there will be another anti-GW post in months after this.

Be sure to check back in when 8th drops nate668!

Exalted!

 Yonan wrote:

 Nate668 wrote:
You're right; you, as a person who does not play or enjoy 40k but comes to a 40k forum to complain about it, leaving for a little while would make Dakka a better place, which would in turn make me happier. But I also think it would make you happier as well.

You do realize there's a lot more to 40k than the tabletop game right? We can dislike the tabletop game, not talk about the tabletop game and still spend a lot of time in this very subforum talking about 40k, be it novels, pc games, models, whatever.

And this whole business about how it's wrong that I'm "enabling" GW is ludicrous.

It's really not. When you reward GW by purchasing their $18 dataslates with 3 lines of new rules in them, you're encouraging them to do more of it.

40k brings me happiness, and it is not your place to tell me to stop doing something that makes me happy.

You even quoted me saying "we're not telling you to stop doing it" so where did this come from?

You're right, I was mistaken. You did not explicitly tell me not to buy/play 40k. But I stand by the rest of that paragraph.

Along those same lines, I never said that I buy all of the data slates. In fact, I haven't purchased any of them, and I agree with you that their pricing is a bit silly. Again, it comes back to voting with my wallet. I buy the stuff I like, and I don't buy the stuff I don't. That's how I, as a consumer, convey my opinions about products to the makers of those products.

Also, I would never suggest that it's unhealthy to post about the aspects that you do enjoy, if you can do so without being dragged into the parts that you do not. Even when I stopped reading the tactics and general discussion forums when I was taking a break, I still frequented the painting and modeling sections, for example.

@Kilkrazy: For the sake of transparency, I'll admit that the first post was meant to rile a bit, in order to draw attention to the actual suggestions I'm presenting. This is the internets, after all, and logical, calm arguments tend to be drowned out by all the bs. I don't want to get into discussing the method I chose, however, as it will take away from the point of the thread.

@MWHistorian: I was right there with you, when it comes to trying to steer people away from the game, but you just have to realize that while you personally may not like it, other people out there do, and it is not constructive to criticize those people (I'm not saying you do this yourself, as I do not know your posting history), and it's not really your place to convince strangers not to play 40k of they aren't asking the question "should I play 40k?" Or "what game should I play?"

Actually, I do consider it my place to discourage people from playing 40k. I believe there are better games that might serve their needs more. Also, it's another form of voting with my wallet. They used to rely on veteran's word of mouth, but now I want to turn that against them so they'll finally take notice.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Oh look at this, another thread bitching about people bitching, while failing to explain how a balanced rule set would ruin beer and pretzels time, or why I can't expect one for the $220 they expect me to spend on the two rule books alone.

People understand that GW isn't listening. The customers are though. As said, "vote with your wallet".

Glad to hear how much GW works for you though nate668. Because that's my main concern when I looked 7th for the first time, I was thinking "damn I hope this edition doesn't negatively affect the level of enjoyment nate668 gets out if his beer and pretzel nights". And I'm sure I speak for the vast majority of all the people not impressed by GW currently as well.

But thanks for making this thread, now all the rest of us can sleep easy. I doubt there will be another anti-GW post in months after this.

Be sure to check back in when 8th drops nate668!

Man, you're so far off the point I'm trying to make. I'll summarize as clearly as I can here:

40k has (and frankly, always has had) some fundamental flaws that make it unsuited to competitive play. This sucks! We all wish it was better. The only thing we can do to affect GW is to vote with our wallets, and avoid purchasing the things we disagree with. Complaining on Dakka will not change 40k, and is a waste of time and energy that could be better spent doing something that makes each of us happy. If you take a break from 40k, you may find that you still want nothing to do with it years from now, or you may be able to accept it for it's shortcomings and find that you enjoy it for what it is. Either way, you will have more time and energy to devote to things you like, and Dakka will be a better place for everyone.

If I drop 40k once 8th comes around, you won't find me here posting about it, because I'd rather spend my time doing something productive or having fun instead of complaining about things that I wish I liked.