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Made in us
Smokin' Skorcha Driver




Dallas, TX

We wrote:
For me:

Warmahordes: I don't like the steam punk or whatever that theme is. Also just about as expensive so why switch.



Have to make one correction here.

Model price per model price: WM/H is cheaper than GW outside if a few exceptions.
Box unit per box unit price: WM/H is greatly cheaper then GW (I.e. Winter guard infantry $50, space marine tactical squad $45, but you will need multiple tactical squads where you only need 1 maybe 2 winter guard units).
   
Made in us
Bounding Ultramarine Assault Trooper



Dawsonville GA

mrfantastical wrote:
We wrote:
For me:

Warmahordes: I don't like the steam punk or whatever that theme is. Also just about as expensive so why switch.



Have to make one correction here.

Model price per model price: WM/H is cheaper than GW outside if a few exceptions.
Box unit per box unit price: WM/H is greatly cheaper then GW (I.e. Winter guard infantry $50, space marine tactical squad $45, but you will need multiple tactical squads where you only need 1 maybe 2 winter guard units).


Looking on the site I see boxes listed at $50 for 4-5 guys. So that's $10 per model. Definitely close enough to GW prices to me.

The Winter Guard Infantry box you listed is $5 more - so it is more expensive. The only costs savings is you don't need as many models. If I played smaller scale 40K games I could get the same effect.
   
Made in de
Repentia Mistress





Santuary 101

I've read the rules for Warmachine and Flames of war. The downers which were barriers for me to start were

Warmachine: 40k has allies and flyers which makes the game scenery varied. I believe Hordes may have flyers? Haven't seen it yet or if there is, it's rare. Cyriss has skimmer types more than anything. Even the Clockwork Angels. I'm referring to the 40k idea of air support.

Flames of War: I can play any army versus any army in 40k, as any back story can be used. The much talked about Forge the narrative? But for FoW, I have to limit myself to the time period that the gaming group of the local scene plays. If there are few players, the choice of what army I can start, is somewhat restricted.

DS:70+S+G+M-B--IPw40k94-D+++A++/wWD380R+T(D)DM+

Avatar scene by artist Nicholas Kay. Give credit where it's due! 
   
Made in us
Smokin' Skorcha Driver




Dallas, TX

We wrote:
mrfantastical wrote:
We wrote:
For me:

Warmahordes: I don't like the steam punk or whatever that theme is. Also just about as expensive so why switch.



Have to make one correction here.

Model price per model price: WM/H is cheaper than GW outside if a few exceptions.
Box unit per box unit price: WM/H is greatly cheaper then GW (I.e. Winter guard infantry $50, space marine tactical squad $45, but you will need multiple tactical squads where you only need 1 maybe 2 winter guard units).


Looking on the site I see boxes listed at $50 for 4-5 guys. So that's $10 per model. Definitely close enough to GW prices to me.

The Winter Guard Infantry box you listed is $5 more - so it is more expensive. The only costs savings is you don't need as many models. If I played smaller scale 40K games I could get the same effect.



I could go over model by model and compare prices which would be silly, or I can just point to this.... It's far cheaper to get going in warmachine.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/05/price-of-wargaming-spring-2011.html

And this was 3 years ago, and GW prices have gone up since this article while Privateer Press price have remained flat.
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

mrfantastical wrote:
We wrote:
mrfantastical wrote:
We wrote:
For me:

Warmahordes: I don't like the steam punk or whatever that theme is. Also just about as expensive so why switch.



Have to make one correction here.

Model price per model price: WM/H is cheaper than GW outside if a few exceptions.
Box unit per box unit price: WM/H is greatly cheaper then GW (I.e. Winter guard infantry $50, space marine tactical squad $45, but you will need multiple tactical squads where you only need 1 maybe 2 winter guard units).


Looking on the site I see boxes listed at $50 for 4-5 guys. So that's $10 per model. Definitely close enough to GW prices to me.

The Winter Guard Infantry box you listed is $5 more - so it is more expensive. The only costs savings is you don't need as many models. If I played smaller scale 40K games I could get the same effect.



I could go over model by model and compare prices which would be silly, or I can just point to this.... It's far cheaper to get going in warmachine.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/05/price-of-wargaming-spring-2011.html

And this was 3 years ago, and GW prices have gone up since this article while Privateer Press price have remained flat.


From that link it appears its cheaper to get armies for warmachine not individual models which would make sense as WMH armies are much smaller than 40k?WFB - but does anyone really just collect the basic army you need to play? I get the concept but tis the opposite to the way I collect

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

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Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine




Some do. But if you're collecting models you like then I don't think a price argument is relevant. Since you will buy the models on an individual basis, not necessarily to make a playable army.


Edit: Grammar: my eternal enemy!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/07 20:13:25


 
   
Made in ie
Battleship Captain





Warmachine: 40k has allies and flyers which makes the game scenery varied. I believe Hordes may have flyers? Haven't seen it yet or if there is, it's rare. Cyriss has skimmer types more than anything. Even the Clockwork Angels. I'm referring to the 40k idea of air support.


WM/H has rules for flying things, but they just don't get a terrible ruleset to make the super special. Also, most factions can take Mercenary or Minion units.
Saying that, the variation in lists comes from your general. Each warcaster interacts and changes the way your army preforms. You can take the same unit for two different casters and that casters spells and abilities will change what that unit can do.

Looking on the site I see boxes listed at $50 for 4-5 guys. So that's $10 per model. Definitely close enough to GW prices to me.


Is it cherry picking season already? My how time flies.


 
   
Made in de
Repentia Mistress





Santuary 101

Sim-Life wrote:
Warmachine: 40k has allies and flyers which makes the game scenery varied. I believe Hordes may have flyers? Haven't seen it yet or if there is, it's rare. Cyriss has skimmer types more than anything. Even the Clockwork Angels. I'm referring to the 40k idea of air support.


WM/H has rules for flying things, but they just don't get a terrible ruleset to make the super special. Also, most factions can take Mercenary or Minion units.
Saying that, the variation in lists comes from your general. Each warcaster interacts and changes the way your army preforms. You can take the same unit for two different casters and that casters spells and abilities will change what that unit can do. .


I couldn't find the rules for flyers in Warmachine MKII rulebook. Could you provide a reference? Would like to see how they differ.

And unfortunately, only Cyriss appeals to me as an army, so no Mercs for me.

DS:70+S+G+M-B--IPw40k94-D+++A++/wWD380R+T(D)DM+

Avatar scene by artist Nicholas Kay. Give credit where it's due! 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 milkboy wrote:

I couldn't find the rules for flyers in Warmachine MKII rulebook. Could you provide a reference? Would like to see how they differ.
.


It's a Special rule, not a unit type.

Amusingly, it's called 'flight'.

But flying stuff does exist. Lots of legion beasties (archangel, for example) and circle beasties have it some jacks too.

As a general concept though, I'm not very sympathetic to the idea of air support in a setting that, robots with magical brains aside, broadly has an eighteenth or nineteenth century level of technology for a lot of its gubbins (you know, railroads, steam engines, the recently invented 'teleraph' etc). In sci fi? Sure. But not whet is essentially an Industrial Age fantasy setting.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/07/07 21:47:22


 
   
Made in ie
Battleship Captain





Basically you get to ignore everything for movement.
You still take free strikes if you move over enemy models.


 
   
Made in us
Cosmic Joe





Deadnight wrote:
 milkboy wrote:

I couldn't find the rules for flyers in Warmachine MKII rulebook. Could you provide a reference? Would like to see how they differ.
.


It's a Special rule, not a unit type.

Amusingly, it's called 'flight'.

But flying stuff does exist. Lots of legion beasties (archangel, for example) and circle beasties have it some jacks too.

As a general concept though, I'm not very sympathetic to the idea of air support in a setting that, robots with magical brains aside, broadly has an eighteenth or nineteenth century level of technology for a lot of its gubbins (you know, railroads, steam engines, the recently invented 'teleraph' etc). In sci fi? Sure. But not whet is essentially an Industrial Age fantasy setting.

I'm sure if people had magic, they couldn't have discovered flight much sooner.



Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions. 
   
Made in ie
Battleship Captain





No warjack I can think of has Flight.
Cyriss jacks hover, but thats it.

I find it perfectly acceptable for Hordes though.


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 MWHistorian wrote:

I'm sure if people had magic, they couldn't have discovered flight much sooner.


Oh, they have flight technology. Vinter escaped the lions coup in the end in an experimental airship fir example.

On the whole though, air power don't seem to be very practical. Or very developed. And glitchy. It's actually something Matt Wilson and Doug Seacat (main fluff writer) are against as a whole, as it's generally not something they want to put into the world.

That said...

http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?192274-HMS-Griffon-Gun-Carraige-to-Airship-Conversion

Awesome conversion.

Sim-Life wrote:
No warjack I can think of has Flight.
Cyriss jacks hover, but thats it.

I find it perfectly acceptable for Hordes though.


Cryx scavengers have it.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/07/07 22:04:34


 
   
Made in us
Wraith






Salem, MA

Deadnight wrote:


Sim-Life wrote:
No warjack I can think of has Flight.
Cyriss jacks hover, but thats it.

I find it perfectly acceptable for Hordes though.


Cryx scavengers have it.


As does Terminus.

Flyers/air support isn't really a unit type in the game. Nor is there really a need for it, as skirmish doesn't really need close air support.

No wargames these days, more DM/Painting.

I paint things occasionally. Some things you may even like! 
   
Made in gb
Soul Token




West Yorkshire, England

Bharring wrote:

40k is much maligned for seeing itself as a beer & pretzels game, but I think that is one of it's strongest points, for me. However, others do prefer less of that in their game. Fortunately, not everyone need prefer the same game. And most metas can support at least 2 games.


I've mentioned this before, but when I think of "beer and pretzels" games, I think of something with a low buy-in to get to the "evening's game" level, something which is easy to learn and teach with a minimum of time spent scanning the rules to try and answer an ambiguous situation, and which doesn't take long to set up and pack up. With the best will in the world, that does not describe 40K.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Why I like 40k better than some of the alternative games


For me it's the background. Someone can argue that Warmachine or Infinity are better games until they're blue in the face, but I like 40K because I like the background. It has to be something I like in order to get me to play something else. BattleTech does that by being completely different to 40K, and the only other one in recent memory that piqued my interest was AT-43, but that died before it got going.


This isn't just flattery, I swear, but I've found the FFG games to be my main source for 40K background now. It feels like the wargame has "filled up" on background because it needs to focus on armies and military factions, and it feels like everything that can be said about them, has. And then you have your sillier moments (Hi, Draigo!).

"The 75mm gun is firing. The 37mm gun is firing, but is traversed round the wrong way. The Browning is jammed. I am saying "Driver, advance." and the driver, who can't hear me, is reversing. And as I look over the top of the turret and see twelve enemy tanks fifty yards away, someone hands me a cheese sandwich." 
   
Made in us
Hacking Proxy Mk.1





Australia

I honestly just thing FFG have a better understanding of the fluff than GW these days.

 Fafnir wrote:
Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
 
   
Made in us
Bounding Ultramarine Assault Trooper



Dawsonville GA

 Mr Morden wrote:
mrfantastical wrote:
We wrote:
mrfantastical wrote:
We wrote:
For me:

Warmahordes: I don't like the steam punk or whatever that theme is. Also just about as expensive so why switch.



Have to make one correction here.

Model price per model price: WM/H is cheaper than GW outside if a few exceptions.
Box unit per box unit price: WM/H is greatly cheaper then GW (I.e. Winter guard infantry $50, space marine tactical squad $45, but you will need multiple tactical squads where you only need 1 maybe 2 winter guard units).


Looking on the site I see boxes listed at $50 for 4-5 guys. So that's $10 per model. Definitely close enough to GW prices to me.

The Winter Guard Infantry box you listed is $5 more - so it is more expensive. The only costs savings is you don't need as many models. If I played smaller scale 40K games I could get the same effect.



I could go over model by model and compare prices which would be silly, or I can just point to this.... It's far cheaper to get going in warmachine.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/05/price-of-wargaming-spring-2011.html

And this was 3 years ago, and GW prices have gone up since this article while Privateer Press price have remained flat.


From that link it appears its cheaper to get armies for warmachine not individual models which would make sense as WMH armies are much smaller than 40k?WFB - but does anyone really just collect the basic army you need to play? I get the concept but tis the opposite to the way I collect


That's exactly what I am saying.
   
Made in us
Beast of Nurgle






After 15 some odd years of playing 40k. I've come to this conclusion:

"40k is a great game when it's not being played by gamers."

What I mean by that is, people who just play 40k as a side hobby and don't think about it too much away from the tabletop or painting desk, tend to have a really great time with it. These folks usually just take the rules at face value and make houserules when odd situations occur, usually following some kind of real-world logic. I know quite a few people like this, they've never visited a forum and never heard of a deathstar. They have a grand time with their CSM squads and Assault Marines.

40k is a seriously flawed game and it only gets more flawed when you take the time to really dive into the working bits of the rules. So I've scaled back taking a serious stance with the game and taken a more relaxed approach. I don't let the nitty gritty of the rules get me down. Gamers have a habit of dissecting everything and extracting the best parts, this is bad when you do it to 40k.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/08 22:15:57


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






St. Albans

I'll try any game that I like the aesthetics of - had a few goes at X-Wing and got a small Infinity starter force [but no-one to play against :(

Having said that I strongly dislike the vast majority of the warmachine/hordes models, they just really don't do it for me, so no interest. GW, despite their faults, do put out some lovely miniatures. So, 40k for me, because they do such nice models.

 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Miles City, MT

I have played Battletech/Mechwarrior in the past, and I currently play Warhammer 40k. I loved the whole giant robots thing with Battletech and the ability to essentially build your own character and Mech and the rules were fairly simple, but the basically flat board and inconsistent model size/quality was a real turnoff (a 20 ton mech being a bigger or equal sized model to a 100 ton mech just doesn't make sense). 40k has much less customization, but much better terrain and models. Both games have their imbalances in rules, but both can be fun games. Ultimately i play 40k now and don't play any battletech due to lack of players and model support (and model customization though conversions can be easier with BT due to the boxy robots).

Twinkle, Twinkle little star.
I ran over your Wave Serpents with my car. 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

I wanted to bump this back up because I just came to the conclusion that, while I technically currently play Warmahordes and rules-wise it's a great game, something about it just doesn't "click" with me. I really can't explain it exactly, but a game just doesn't feel fun - it feels very mechanical, very bland. To put it in perspective, I'm involved in a small league at a local game store. I've only played one league game because every time league night comes around I don't even feel like bothering, because I'm not having fun. It's not a knock on the game or the players, just something about it doesn't feel right to me.

At the same token, I've been salivating over the Stormclaw boxed set, even though I haven't played 40k in over a decade. Something about 40k just still appeals to me.

- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in au
Oberstleutnant






Perth, West Australia

It's definitely an issue Wayne and one I also struggle with - hence still buying 40k bundles like SM SF and SM SF Ultras this year despite not playing. Mantic is on a winner there with their close-to WHFB/40K Kings of War and Warpath/Deadzone/Dreadball settings. They're not identical but they still have that similar feel - ratmen in space, elves in space, power armoured super humans gutting mutated aliens in close combat and so on. No chainswords, no "grim dark" feel, but you get an "oppressive corporate" feel in that, while they don't purge xenos out of xenophobia, they'll do it without batting an eye for profit - they'll purge humans just as easily too.

Warmahordes hasn't clicked with me as a setting either, which is why I haven't picked it up yet despite liking the competetiveness of the rules. I do like the style of one of the armies (Menoth) but the mix of materials, lack of knowledge of the setting and so on keep me away for now whilst other games like X-Wing click quickly for obvious reasons, and DZC instantly gives you (me) that great feeling.

... but it always comes back to chainswords ; p
   
Made in ca
Lord of the Fleet






Halifornia, Nova Scotia

I think the only game outside of 40k that has really clicked with me has been FSA. The game's fluff isn't well developed, but the ability for the fan base to fill in the gaps is very exciting. I've already written one small piece of fiction for my favoured faction and I plan on doing a second one.

Planetfall will be good for providing more depth to the game's fluff.

Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress

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Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





For me it's just the fluff, lore, and customability. While 40K might not be "deep" like Dune is, as in a prized piece of literature, 40K has a massive library chock full of ideas that I would consider even superior to Star Wars' Legends canon due to the shear amount of variety generated by 40k. I'm not interested in any other Wargame because there's no meat to them, there's nothing like Chaos, Chaos Space Marines, and the variety offered by those factions.

Ironically, despite 40K robbing nearly every old Sci Fi fiction blind of its tropes and icons, 40K's ended up a fairly unique looking IP.

“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
 
   
Made in au
Oberstleutnant






Perth, West Australia

 Wyzilla wrote:
For me it's just the fluff, lore, and customability. While 40K might not be "deep" like Dune is, as in a prized piece of literature

I've been hanging out for more Dune material for a long time. There was an MMO planned 10 or so years ago where each player controlled a House and managed their house and holdings with politics, wars and so on... it had so much potential, but too great a scope for the time perhaps. Dune would work well on tabletop too I think either as a skirmish and/or larger wargame because as you say, the setting is great and deep enough due to the vivid writing and the movie putting imagery to it. I'd buy House Atreides, Fremen, Sardaukar etc. miniatures in a heartbeat.
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





 Yonan wrote:
 Wyzilla wrote:
For me it's just the fluff, lore, and customability. While 40K might not be "deep" like Dune is, as in a prized piece of literature

I've been hanging out for more Dune material for a long time. There was an MMO planned 10 or so years ago where each player controlled a House and managed their house and holdings with politics, wars and so on... it had so much potential, but too great a scope for the time perhaps. Dune would work well on tabletop too I think either as a skirmish and/or larger wargame because as you say, the setting is great and deep enough due to the vivid writing and the movie putting imagery to it. I'd buy House Atreides, Fremen, Sardaukar etc. miniatures in a heartbeat.


Yeah, it would be cool if they made a Wargame off Dune. I still haven't read it (it's on my list though, probably the next one to hit off), but I'd certainly place it as one of the greatest Sci Fi books ever written, simply for what it did for the genre. Many works borrow off it, including W40K and Star Wars. Hell IIRC isn't the original book the best selling Science Fiction novel of all time?

A Dune wargame would be something I would be willing to hop over to, albeit still staying attached to 40K. I just like a wargame that has MEAT behind it, something that you can chew into. The difference for me between Warmachine and other popular modern wargames is that campaigns in 40K mean something, there's a whole universe behind the wargame where you can create your own custom force, or build off a pre-existing subfaction with a lot of literature behind it that gives it character. Other wargames without the background lore just feel flat. It's like the difference between playing Monopoly and an RPG.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/13 03:44:55


“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
 
   
Made in au
Oberstleutnant






Perth, West Australia

Agreed wholeheartedly. 40k gives you the option to partake in a 10k year war of chaos vs imperium, or the galactic struggle for survival against the extra-galactec xenos threat of tyranids. Dune gives you the option to partake in the LANDSRAAD politics and house on house warfare, control of the spice, alliances with factions like the bene gesserit, fremen, navigators, IX and so on. Ability to create your own houses and heavily customise them as the known houses were all wildly different in feel and even the units they used and how they fought. Fighting on Arrakis, house owned planets, guild ships, other planets over resources, skirmish scale assassination forces... so much potential!

So yeah, the depth of setting is really important, and it's not unique to 40k however much we love 40k.
   
Made in us
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend



Maine

 Blacksails wrote:
I think the only game outside of 40k that has really clicked with me has been FSA. The game's fluff isn't well developed, but the ability for the fan base to fill in the gaps is very exciting. I've already written one small piece of fiction for my favoured faction and I plan on doing a second one.

Planetfall will be good for providing more depth to the game's fluff.


I think Heroclix is really the only 'war/skirmish' game that has kept my attention outside of Warhammer. I will be the first to admit I love how Warmahoarde models look, but I watch my locals play, and many of them are dicks to newcommers. Plus, its rules seem to be tricky to get ahold on. Despite 40k's issues, the basic concept of the game is pretty easy to grab. Its more finer details are written ambiguously, leaving room for too much interpretation.

I love Heroclix because...well, first off I love comics. Second, they come ready to play, even if their sculpts/paint jobs might not be the super best, they have gotten much better over the years. But the game is SUPER easy to start up. The Fast Forces/Starter sets give you ready to play figures for upwards of 600 point games or so (average game is 300 points in Heroclix). So you get a good taste. Plus, buying singles is typically DIRT CHEAP unless you want the rarest figures (Which get to be 50 bucks per at times). But the simplicity of Heroclix is what grabs me. I just wish it didn't use a grid system sometimes. I love the freemoving feel of wargames.
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





At the end of the day, the reason I persist with 40k over the alternatives:

1) Sci fi 28mm games of ~30-50 models a side. Really not a big fan of small scale skirmish games.

2) The aesthetic. I can't get in to Warmachine because I simply do not like the models.

3) The universe. I love me some Orkses, Nids, DKOK and Spehss Mareenz.
   
Made in au
Oberstleutnant






Perth, West Australia

Specifically re Orks, have you seen the Mantic Marauders for Warpath/Deadzone Skink? They have a similar feel to 40K Orks design-wise, but are less comical and more militaristic. Not better, not worse, just different - and I love 'em too ; ) I love seeing me some 40K Orks in the Dawn of War and Space Marine games, I don't think the Marauders have been fleshed out enough stylewise to compete with them there though. But then, I think those games have done huge things for helping me visualise and get into 40k so it's possible similarly good games could do the same for the Warpath setting.
   
 
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