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So I've been running a modified serpent spam tournament list at 1500 points (the standard around here) the problem I've been running into is the need to put in some big threats on the table. The guy who is doing very well at the tournaments (also with a serpent spam Eldar) is putting out some scary things with twin Crimson Hunters. Originally I was considering going the same route but I find that my Crimson Hunters never ever make their points back even in their ability to distract my opponent. However, my Wraithknight always does (he's damn hard to take down and can smash just about anything to bits) so my plan is a dual Wraithknight list coupled with a hearty serpent spam and a nice big shock and awe Dire Avenger unit.

Farseer
-Jetbike
-Mantle of the Laughing God

10 Dire Avengers
-Wave Serpent
-Twin-Linked Scatter Laser
-Holofield

3x 5 Dire Avengers
-Wave Serpent
-Twin-Linked Scatter Laser
-Holofield

2x Wraithknight

1500 points exactly, going with divination because prescience is really good and so is misfortune (make my entire wave serpent volley rending, yes please). Running the two knights forward they generally get combat turn 2 after popping a tank each if not more. Thoughts?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Making a change, drop unit of 10 dire avengers down to 5, add 5 rangers and a spear on the farseer. Makes it so all my serpents are the same, I like repetition in my lists like that, plus it gives me a few extra long range shots on the board, something I can probably use to take out some nasties long range while holding onto a backfield objective

Ugh is that 4 wave serpents and 2 wraithknights?

I cant really think of much that can touch this.

You have great mobility, immensely tough vehicles/units to kill, downright scary damage output.

Personally I cant think of a TAC type list in Space Marines that could reliably stop this list. Perhaps a massed foot Guard army could tie you up.

danny1995 wrote:
So I've been running a modified serpent spam tournament list at 1500 points (the standard around here) the problem I've been running into is the need to put in some big threats on the table. The guy who is doing very well at the tournaments (also with a serpent spam Eldar) is putting out some scary things with twin Crimson Hunters. Originally I was considering going the same route but I find that my Crimson Hunters never ever make their points back even in their ability to distract my opponent. However, my Wraithknight always does (he's damn hard to take down and can smash just about anything to bits) so my plan is a dual Wraithknight list coupled with a hearty serpent spam and a nice big shock and awe Dire Avenger unit.

Farseer
-Jetbike
-Mantle of the Laughing God

10 Dire Avengers
-Wave Serpent
-Twin-Linked Scatter Laser
-Holofield

3x 5 Dire Avengers
-Wave Serpent
-Twin-Linked Scatter Laser
-Holofield

2x Wraithknight

1500 points exactly, going with divination because prescience is really good and so is misfortune (make my entire wave serpent volley rending, yes please). Running the two knights forward they generally get combat turn 2 after popping a tank each if not more. Thoughts?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Making a change, drop unit of 10 dire avengers down to 5, add 5 rangers and a spear on the farseer. Makes it so all my serpents are the same, I like repetition in my lists like that, plus it gives me a few extra long range shots on the board, something I can probably use to take out some nasties long range while holding onto a backfield objective

Do you ever wonder how talented you are? Must be hard to judge when you are spamming the hell out of the most op units. ^ A perfect example of why tournaments don't mean a thing.

Looks solid. Typical Serpent Spam at 1500. I wonder if it would be better to have 2 units of 10 guardians rather than a 5&10 DAs. Gives you 2 units with threat inside rather than one and keeps repetition better than just having a little unit Rangers giving up first blood. Also frees enough points for Witnessing on the Seer.

cm32 wrote:

danny1995 wrote:
So I've been running a modified serpent spam tournament list at 1500 points (the standard around here) the problem I've been running into is the need to put in some big threats on the table. The guy who is doing very well at the tournaments (also with a serpent spam Eldar) is putting out some scary things with twin Crimson Hunters. Originally I was considering going the same route but I find that my Crimson Hunters never ever make their points back even in their ability to distract my opponent. However, my Wraithknight always does (he's damn hard to take down and can smash just about anything to bits) so my plan is a dual Wraithknight list coupled with a hearty serpent spam and a nice big shock and awe Dire Avenger unit.

Farseer
-Jetbike
-Mantle of the Laughing God

10 Dire Avengers
-Wave Serpent
-Twin-Linked Scatter Laser
-Holofield

3x 5 Dire Avengers
-Wave Serpent
-Twin-Linked Scatter Laser
-Holofield

2x Wraithknight

1500 points exactly, going with divination because prescience is really good and so is misfortune (make my entire wave serpent volley rending, yes please). Running the two knights forward they generally get combat turn 2 after popping a tank each if not more. Thoughts?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Making a change, drop unit of 10 dire avengers down to 5, add 5 rangers and a spear on the farseer. Makes it so all my serpents are the same, I like repetition in my lists like that, plus it gives me a few extra long range shots on the board, something I can probably use to take out some nasties long range while holding onto a backfield objective

Do you ever wonder how talented you are? Must be hard to judge when you are spamming the hell out of the most op units. ^ A perfect example of why tournaments don't mean a thing.

Thank you for the input, but when I show up to the tournament and there are 3 other serpent spam lists in a 10 man tourney, I am going to continue to play the strongest list I can. It just so happens the strongest list I can may be considered broken by some people.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Looks solid. Typical Serpent Spam at 1500. I wonder if it would be better to have 2 units of 10 guardians rather than a 5&10 DAs. Gives you 2 units with threat inside rather than one and keeps repetition better than just having a little unit Rangers giving up first blood. Also frees enough points for Witnessing on the Seer.

This is a pretty good idea, witnessing can be really useful that one time you neeeeeed a power to go off. And you're right, it does keep me running twins of units, I often run my army in wings on the table top (having each one support itself while the other deals with another target) so having the only thing the wings share be a single support Psyker is a good thing.

If you're going to tournaments, don't you put up with massed sniper kroot? I wouldn't personally suggest two Wraithknights because of lists like this


That alone is only 924 points, has no suit team or riptide and would crush this. Kroot wipe the floor with your Knights, Broadside team is joined by Buffmander for IC to hunt some Serpents. I'd suggest you find another "hammer" to purchase over that second Knight, to remove the danger of this. Or poison, but i don't know Deldar.

I've actually never run into Kroot around here (except in very small numbers). Doing the math it is possible for this to take down one knight if he got first turn, but if not it would be fairly badly stomped. This is partially because the tables done around here will always have a good Line of Sight blocking piece in the middle, and decent cover. With 7th ed cover is not TLOS for monsters (like Wraithknights) so he can fairly effectively find a hiding place. There will always be hard counters to things, always, but that list does require some very good rolling. And in terms of Deldar, by the time they are in range to open up wit the poison, the wraithknight will assault them.

The points for that are all over the place. I love how the buffmander is twinlinking the already twinlinked Broadsides. Yes 80 Kroot will kill the Knights all he has to do is hope to not get drawn against this round 1 and after that they will not be on the same tables. Due to threat ranges if he goes first the Knights murder the Broadsides and the Serpents kill about 30 Kroot causing morale checks on every unit. Unless it's hammer and Anvil in which case he just laughs with his 60" range...

Pardon, only one reroll. I don't play Tau, just against them.

And how are you going to wipe the broadsides? We're talking 4 Serpents, so we''ll say 14 SL hits, and 13 (generous) Shield hits if you shot all of them at just the broadsides, ignoring the riptide that would probably be there. SL wounds would be 9.33 wounds, and Shield would be 8.66 wounds. 18 wounds on a 2+ armor = 3 unsaved wounds, 2 after stim injector. Doesn't even scratch the suits if they're put on the drones.

If you've got tables that cool, then go for it. Just trying to help.

Good luck.

Please don't forget about psychic powers on this, the hope is always for Misfortune, which means rending serpents.

He'd use the Knights against the Broadsides who would not have stims (which would be useless even if they did) they'd have EWO, killing the drones with a Serpent if he's got them out front. Then it's 4 S10 Ap2 twinlinked shots at them.

Seriously I am a Tau player that was a terrible Tau list. 7th wasn't kind to Tau and Enclaves are the way if you're playing proper 7th (most Tournaments are FAQing 7th back to 6th as much as they can).

If you're going that route you take a Mark'o and have the Broadsides as part of a FBSC so they get Tank Hunters for free. Something like this

Commander: 2 MP, TL, DC, 2 Marker drones 208

4 x 20 Kroot: snipers 560

FBSC
Riptide: VT, EWO, ECPA 235
3 Broadsides: EWO, 3 Missile Drones 249
3 Broadsides: EWO, 3 Missile Drones 249

That would be much scarier but with no really mobile OS it would struggle against many lists and again Hammer and Anvil bones the list. But he didn't ask for can you tailor a list to beat this (because the answer is always yes) it was how can he improve the list and make it more effective.

Also, a way to deal with this if you're really worried about the snipers is to deep strike the knights after dealing with the kroot with the serpents from as far away as possible. And the new psychic phase means I can still cause a Wraithknight to be re-rolling to hit the turn he drops. If I'm really lucky I could one shot that riptide and any wounds on the broadsides or commander from the knights is going to kill them outright.

I made the one suggestion I saw (get a second hammer that won't keel over from Kroot and Poison). And this list fully kitted out wouldn't be a hard counter, it'd work rather well against BeastStar, Nidzilla, SuperCenturion, Flying Circus, and Serpent Spam. Only problem I see would be Seerstar.

TL Knights - 3.52 hits, 2.92 wounds, 1.46 after shield, once again doesn't scratch if allocated to the drones. And please don't make me calculate how dead they'd be next turn, especially with markerlight assist which would presumably be there. The Tau are most certainly not bad.

The list I made is only 924 points to give an example, and could still get two riptides or something else nasty like that. Broadsides don't have stims, Commander does and is going to soak up the wounds (hence iridium, Shield gen, and Stim)

Please don't get angry at me for attempting to assist... I normally point out list errors with counter lists. Just my way to show it.

Not trying to get mad, I'm just figuring my way to resolve the list being a threat. The other thing is the knights aren't quite a hammer, they're more of a thing that can not be ignored so I can draw fire from my serpents and make people panic a little.

None of that was directed at you, Danny. And yes, deep striking them wouldn't be too bad. Protects them in reserves until Kroot have been mopped up.

Well, I'd replace one WK by 3 Warwalkers w/ dual scatterlasers. More bang for the bucks.

They may theoretically be more bang for your buck but a) I'm starting to see more land raiders which means I need more really high strength which I'm getting from the knights b) knights present a significant threat to all armies where as scatter lasers only present a good threat against horde armies and light vehicles c) I think I already have plenty of mid strength weapons from all the serpents, and finally d) they just aren't doing the job I need for the knights which is to look scary.

Damn, 4 Serpents and 2 Wraithknights in 1500? I'd be sad if I saw that across the table from me :/

On the other hand, I do love the Mantarch.

danny1995 wrote:
So I've been running a modified serpent spam tournament list at 1500 points (the standard around here) the problem I've been running into is the need to put in some big threats on the table. The guy who is doing very well at the tournaments (also with a serpent spam Eldar) is putting out some scary things with twin Crimson Hunters. Originally I was considering going the same route but I find that my Crimson Hunters never ever make their points back even in their ability to distract my opponent. However, my Wraithknight always does (he's damn hard to take down and can smash just about anything to bits) so my plan is a dual Wraithknight list coupled with a hearty serpent spam and a nice big shock and awe Dire Avenger unit.

Farseer
-Jetbike
-Mantle of the Laughing God

10 Dire Avengers
-Wave Serpent
-Twin-Linked Scatter Laser
-Holofield

3x 5 Dire Avengers
-Wave Serpent
-Twin-Linked Scatter Laser
-Holofield

2x Wraithknight

1500 points exactly, going with divination because prescience is really good and so is misfortune (make my entire wave serpent volley rending, yes please). Running the two knights forward they generally get combat turn 2 after popping a tank each if not more. Thoughts?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Making a change, drop unit of 10 dire avengers down to 5, add 5 rangers and a spear on the farseer. Makes it so all my serpents are the same, I like repetition in my lists like that, plus it gives me a few extra long range shots on the board, something I can probably use to take out some nasties long range while holding onto a backfield objective

Well the 10 man dire avengers arent much of a shock and awe unit, so I would drop them down to 5 man to be able to take a 3 man jet bike squad (reserve it of course)

Bikes may be a good plan, more dakka on the table. However they become a pretty ponchos target seeing as they are the only thing on the table until I empty my transports that can be effectively injured by strength 5 or less.

Vanilla Marines probably can't challenge this. My Space Wolves drop pod list would probably beat you. Many melta guns, many power fists, many missile launchers. All things that can take out wave serpents.

Just so I can get my mind around what I could do to handle that nasty drop pod list (which is a pretty good TAC I believe just due to drop pod greatness) how many pods do you run?

Drop Pods are not TAC as they are basically an autolose vs Tau (still one of the most common armies around). Against them castle in a corner so they can't get rear armour try to play keep away with the Wraithknights forcing risky near table edge drops if they want to get within 6". Keep your shields up jink for a 3+ then get the hell out of dodge after the alphastrike plowing the knights into anything that looks like it might get a charge against a Serpent.

I know how I normally deal with Drop Pods, FlingitNow, however I would still like to know his usual tactics with such a list. of course there is always the Eldar Four Leaf Clover of death that can hang out in my backfield to stop alpha strikes, but the thing is only half of an all drop pod army is alpha strike. You need to be prepped against the incoming waves every turn.

danny1995 wrote:
So I've been running a modified serpent spam tournament list at 1500 points (the standard around here) the problem I've been running into is the need to put in some big threats on the table. The guy who is doing very well at the tournaments (also with a serpent spam Eldar) is putting out some scary things with twin Crimson Hunters. Originally I was considering going the same route but I find that my Crimson Hunters never ever make their points back even in their ability to distract my opponent. However, my Wraithknight always does (he's damn hard to take down and can smash just about anything to bits) so my plan is a dual Wraithknight list coupled with a hearty serpent spam and a nice big shock and awe Dire Avenger unit.

Farseer
-Jetbike
-Mantle of the Laughing God

10 Dire Avengers
-Wave Serpent
-Twin-Linked Scatter Laser
-Holofield

3x 5 Dire Avengers
-Wave Serpent
-Twin-Linked Scatter Laser
-Holofield

2x Wraithknight

1500 points exactly, going with divination because prescience is really good and so is misfortune (make my entire wave serpent volley rending, yes please). Running the two knights forward they generally get combat turn 2 after popping a tank each if not more. Thoughts?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Making a change, drop unit of 10 dire avengers down to 5, add 5 rangers and a spear on the farseer. Makes it so all my serpents are the same, I like repetition in my lists like that, plus it gives me a few extra long range shots on the board, something I can probably use to take out some nasties long range while holding onto a backfield objective

Our definitions of "modified" are different. This looks like every other wave serpant list I've ever seen. Sticking 10 models in one transport doesn't change the way I feel.

Talking about modifying it from the way I usually play it.

danny1995 wrote:
Talking about modifying it from the way I usually play it.

Changing what you put in and out of wave serpants is not much a modification. Neither is swapping wave serpants for jet bikes or vice versa. You should look at the last 10 or so Eldar lists, I'll bet 8 or 9 of them spam the same stuff you are.

Oh how I am going to rejoice when the nerf bat goes eldar's way. It will be glorious.

 Nuln_Oil wrote:

danny1995 wrote:
Talking about modifying it from the way I usually play it.

Changing what you put in and out of wave serpants is not much a modification. Neither is swapping wave serpants for jet bikes or vice versa. You should look at the last 10 or so Eldar lists, I'll bet 8 or 9 of them spam the same stuff you are.

Oh how I am going to rejoice when the nerf bat goes eldar's way. It will be glorious.

There's no need to be rude. My modification is in my support to the army. I use to run two fire prisms in my heavy support slot and Guardians supported by warlocks for the list for more psychic stuff. Now, rather than saying my list is exactly the same as every other list and insulting me for continuing to play my army the same way I did with my 5th ed book with some minor modifications, please assist me in finding a way to create a better list utilizing the same core.

 Nuln_Oil wrote:

danny1995 wrote:
Talking about modifying it from the way I usually play it.

Changing what you put in and out of wave serpants is not much a modification. Neither is swapping wave serpants for jet bikes or vice versa. You should look at the last 10 or so Eldar lists, I'll bet 8 or 9 of them spam the same stuff you are.

Oh how I am going to rejoice when the nerf bat goes eldar's way. It will be glorious.

hehe yes nerf bat indeed will be nice, but just think of how many Wave Serpent kits GW are selling

The question is, who/what will be the next "chosen" spambot race/unit?

4 Wave Serpents and 2 Wraithknights with an impossible to kill Farseer at 1500. And people wonder why i complain that my Dark Eldar have no chance vs Eldar. Guess i will just keep refusing games against people who are using more then 2 Serpents. Sigh, anyhow

Your list is about as Netlisted as you can get, you will find a hundred variations just by googling it. But for your list i would recommend dropping the Rangers in exchange for 3 Jetbikes, 5 Ranger shots won't make any real difference and they are the only unit in your army *capable* of giving away first blood. 3 EJB in reserve will do you better objective/maelstrom wise. I'd also advise you drop the Farseer in exchange for an Autarch, because a single Farseer at 1500 will barely get a spell off.

Assuming you are playing competitively, because if you are not then running this list is a *complete* dick move, then you should assume to be playing against other competitive lists. Seer Council, Daemon Factory, Screamer Star/Flying Circus, Many Guard lists. All of these lists bring Pykers in much higher volume then you do, meaning they have much higher static Warp Charges and will be able to effortlessly stop the spells you most need from going off. With a single Farseer the highest possible Warp Charge is 9 (6+3), which means you are getting one 2 WC and one 1 WC power off at best. Not a great use of points. Take a Mantarch instead with Fusion Gun and maybe a fancy magic sword from the Lyanden supplement, he will serve you better as a Scalpel then the Farseer spending all game failing to get off some spells...