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Look on the bright side, when they do get updated (soon) at least the book will be a GOOD update. Not some BS update like Chaos or Tyranids that makes your army worse!

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Neglected? Even as a 5th edition codex, Space Wolves were a sick codice up until the 7th edition FAQ's, which were released just a few weeks ago.

I see you did not play 6th edition.

xxvaderxx wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Neglected? Even as a 5th edition codex, Space Wolves were a sick codice up until the 7th edition FAQ's, which were released just a few weeks ago.

I see you did not play 6th edition.

They were still mid-tier, they were above CSM for christ's sakes in the tournament charts!

The days of 5th ed were the best. A Space Wolves+IG Horde list won the 2012 NOVA Open.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
]8 special characters, 2 unique units and 4 somewhat unique units doesn't fit on 3-4 pages. You'd either be removing stuff or bloating the book.

Their rules and a small fluff blurb certainly do. It's only when you add pictures and whatnot that it gets bloated. And again, even if you do, 10-12 pages would be enough.

And then once you add that additional content do you really think GW are going to be charging the same price for the big book of Space Marine?

They already charged more for the SM book once (the 5E book was $3-5 more than other books at its release), and honestly, they're either eventually going to charge more anyway (codex books just 7 years ago were $20) or hit a plateau where people just won't pay that much for a simple faction book. Get more bang for your buck.

Once you throw in BA and DA, along with a couple of pages of fluff on each one, their special characters, their unique units and rules... GW would have a book they want to charge you much more than $50... especially considering even the current SM book is $58.

Again, they're either eventually going to charge more anyway, or realize they've hit a plateau. Either way, since when should book cost factor in as a design consideration?

Especially since you're already paying $58 for a book with half the content as a $50 book from say, Battlefront or Fantasy Flight Games.

Probably neglected because GW is trying to figure out the most effective means of getting revenue?

Tiny supplement to SM codex maybe? Les print = less money = spend more for less content = GW win?

Oh wait, they need to pre-release models until they are all done, then codex is released with remainder of models = you may be waiting a while.

 insaniak wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
. If you roll them into the marine book and put all of their flavor units in a supplement then you are making Space Wolf players pay twice for the same amount of rules..

There is no need for their flavour units to be in a separate publication.

Speaking as a Space Wolves player, I would rather see all of the Marine Chapters rolled into one book with an updated version of the Chapter Traits system from 4th edition, allowing you to use pre-set traits to create the 'name' Chapters, or custom trait combinations for your own Chapter.

There is absolutely no need for Wolves, Dark Angels and Blood Angels to all have their own books.

I'd be perfectly fine with this.

Was the OP crying by chance when Space Wolves were the hey day back in 5th?

Take your good with the bad. Then again, watch out for what you wish for. You may have the Tyranid treatment.

 insaniak wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
. If you roll them into the marine book and put all of their flavor units in a supplement then you are making Space Wolf players pay twice for the same amount of rules..

There is no need for their flavour units to be in a separate publication.

Speaking as a Space Wolves player, I would rather see all of the Marine Chapters rolled into one book with an updated version of the Chapter Traits system from 4th edition, allowing you to use pre-set traits to create the 'name' Chapters, or custom trait combinations for your own Chapter.

There is absolutely no need for Wolves, Dark Angels and Blood Angels to all have their own books.

While that would be really cool, I'm not sure how likely that is given GW's current direction. BA and DA are especially confusing considering that BT got rolled into the main book. If anything they had greater differences to be explored, but as you say not so great that they couldn't be in the one book. Just one page for each chapters special units like Sanguinary Guard, Death Company, Deathwing, Thunderwolves etc etc.

Have you played against wolfs lately as a psyker army? I recently witnessed a very interesting and fun Purifier squad list get completely wrecked by space wolves and their wolf tail talismans. The GK player had over 20 warp charge dice and they other guy had at most 8 and not a single instance of cleansing flame was cast the entire game by over 6 sqauds + crowe. FIVE TURNS. thats not bad luck for him rolling the dice, thats pure anti-psyker cheddar from Wolves. That kind of anti-psyker resilience i would expect from Templar or even sisters, but not from space wolves. People complain about not getting a 4+ bubble but that is also pretty darn ridiculous no matter how you cut it!

 generalchaos34 wrote:
Have you played against wolfs lately as a psyker army? I recently witnessed a very interesting and fun Purifier squad list get completely wrecked by space wolves and their wolf tail talismans. The GK player had over 20 warp charge dice and they other guy had at most 8 and not a single instance of cleansing flame was cast the entire game by over 6 sqauds + crowe. FIVE TURNS. thats not bad luck for him rolling the dice, thats pure anti-psyker cheddar from Wolves. That kind of anti-psyker resilience i would expect from Templar or even sisters, but not from space wolves. People complain about not getting a 4+ bubble but that is also pretty darn ridiculous no matter how you cut it!

The talisman is a 5+ invul against psychic powers for the Rune Priest's unit. So you can reliably protect only 2 squads in your army.

Random Dude wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:
Have you played against wolfs lately as a psyker army? I recently witnessed a very interesting and fun Purifier squad list get completely wrecked by space wolves and their wolf tail talismans. The GK player had over 20 warp charge dice and they other guy had at most 8 and not a single instance of cleansing flame was cast the entire game by over 6 sqauds + crowe. FIVE TURNS. thats not bad luck for him rolling the dice, thats pure anti-psyker cheddar from Wolves. That kind of anti-psyker resilience i would expect from Templar or even sisters, but not from space wolves. People complain about not getting a 4+ bubble but that is also pretty darn ridiculous no matter how you cut it!

The talisman is a 5+ invul against psychic powers for the Rune Priest's unit. So you can reliably protect only 2 squads in your army.

Therein lies the problem with nova powers i guess, no matter what he was hitting one of those 2 units

Davor wrote:
Was the OP crying by chance when Space Wolves were the hey day back in 5th?

There were plenty of complaints from long term Space Wolf players during 5th edition about people just assuming that they were playing Space Wolves because they were an over-the-top-tier army, yes.

Having a codex that is too powerful is ultimately no better for the game than having one that is too under-powered.

The main reason that the Wolves seem neglected is that it is now post 2010. Before this decade started we got a new codex, new models, a very compatible rule set, several Black Library novels, and a few other gibs and gobs thrown in. It was a very good time to be a SW fan.

However, all of that attention helped spur on a lot of early hate and for some reason its still currently strongly felt by a select vocal few (I'd argue its currently unjustified).

SW need to just wait their turn in the scheme of GW releases. Their day will come eventually just like BA, DE, Etc.

 Blacksails wrote:

bodazoka wrote:
They are doing every army, it is just impossible to do them all at once.

This is untrue.

They could release an edition with all the codices updated at the same time, then spend the next four years working on a new edition/tweaking the current one while simultaneously working on all the codices so that all of them are designed with the upcoming edition in time.

They just choose a different release schedule/method. Personally, I'm not a fan.

As for the Wolves, I've always been an advocate of rolling them into a big book of marines anyways, that way they'd get updated quicker and free up more release slots/time for other armies.

Release everything at once and then nothing for 4 years.. that is a terrible idea! terrible.

 Vaktathi wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
]8 special characters, 2 unique units and 4 somewhat unique units doesn't fit on 3-4 pages. You'd either be removing stuff or bloating the book.

Their rules and a small fluff blurb certainly do. It's only when you add pictures and whatnot that it gets bloated. And again, even if you do, 10-12 pages would be enough.

Unless GW change their format, not really. Even Salamanders consume 6 pages of fluff/pictures, 1 page for a special character, 2 pages for pictures of models. Using their 6th edition format, I'd be guessing 6+ pages for fluff/pictures, 4+ pages for special characters, 2-4 pages for the unique and semi-unique units, 2 or so pages for the extra army list entries, 4 or so pages for the pictures of models (remembering Space Wolves do have a bunch of unique models.

So I'm counting close to 20 pages unless you really want to cut back on things, which is never going to make players happy.

As someone mentioned previously, yeah, you could do separate fluff/rule books, but I don't see any way that would end well for the consumer knowing GW's typical pricings.

And then once you add that additional content do you really think GW are going to be charging the same price for the big book of Space Marine?

They already charged more for the SM book once (the 5E book was $3-5 more than other books at its release), and honestly, they're either eventually going to charge more anyway (codex books just 7 years ago were $20) or hit a plateau where people just won't pay that much for a simple faction book. Get more bang for your buck.

Once you throw in BA and DA, along with a couple of pages of fluff on each one, their special characters, their unique units and rules... GW would have a book they want to charge you much more than $50... especially considering even the current SM book is $58.

Again, they're either eventually going to charge more anyway, or realize they've hit a plateau. Either way, since when should book cost factor in as a design consideration?

Especially since you're already paying $58 for a book with half the content as a $50 book from say, Battlefront or Fantasy Flight Games.

I personally think you underestimate just how much GW are willing to charge for stuff. Granted, I don't see them charging much over $65-70, but I don't really want to pay that much for a single SM book when I'd rather have a properly fleshed out SW book for $50 (or ideally less but the pricing ship has already sailed on 104 page codices being $50).

Personally I think it's something that should have been done in 3rd edition if it was going to be done at all. I'm not keen on having to buy more expensive books and/or more books to just play a single Marine chapter and I don't particularly want to collect multiple chapters.

xxvaderxx wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Neglected? Even as a 5th edition codex, Space Wolves were a sick codice up until the 7th edition FAQ's, which were released just a few weeks ago.

I see you did not play 6th edition.

I see you've never played Space Wolves.

Space Wolves had arguably the best libarian in the game, the best psychic defense in the game and still have have the best tactical squad in the game.

bodazoka wrote:


Release everything at once and then nothing for 4 years.. that is a terrible idea! terrible.

No, it isn't, because you're thinking like GW and not a smart miniature company.

There's more to a miniature company than a single game and a single facet to that game.

There's no reason each edition couldn't be accompanied by a fully updated set of codices, and then spending the next four doing two things. The first would be working on the next edition, tweaking the current one as more data comes in, and otherwise addressing issues that crop up with timely FAQs. The second is releasing smaller additions to the game or releasing entirely different games. This game could be sustained by added expansions, campaign books, and small release waves of new units for every faction. Add in the ability to do something with Specialist games, fantasy, and helping out with their license in other areas, and the company and the game would be much better.

Other game companies manage to release/update their faction books all in one go with each new edition. Why can't GW? Stop thinking like them and start thinking like a modern wargaming company.

Fail to see how they are neglected when they were top dog in 5th and gained access to allies and such during 6th and now 7th. In the end they are space marines and will always have solid rules and model support while other factions like sisters don't even have plastic troops or missing most of their special characters like Dark Eldar.

bodazoka wrote:
Release everything at once and then nothing for 4 years.. that is a terrible idea! terrible.

That would indeed be a terrible idea.

Releasing all of the rules at once so that everyone is on a level playing field, and then spending the next 4 or 5 years updating old models, filling in gaps in the model range, and releasing expansion and campaign material (you know, the narrative stuff ), however, would be an awesome thing.

 Yonan wrote:
The Black Templars were merged into the SM codex without much problem.

It's the worst Chapter Tactics in C:SM, we lost Vows and Righteous Zeal, all our Special Characters are bad and the only reason to play Chapter Tactics: Black Templars over one of the others is because you want to play Black Templars. No problems indeed.

Random Dude wrote:
I love Space Wolves. They have some of the best back story of any army in the game, but GW never fails to neglect them. Currently they are still using a 5th edition codex which has really limited my enjoyment in playing them. Does GW have good reasons for focusing heavily on a few armies to the exclusion of others?

You're lucky you still have your own Space Wolves codex.

 Blacksails wrote:
Other game companies manage to release/update their faction books all in one go with each new edition. Why can't GW? Stop thinking like them and start thinking like a modern wargaming company.

To be fair, are there any other games that actually have as many factions and units for those factions as 40k?

That said, I agree they should aim to release all the rules at once, even if it's just in one big giant book with little to no fluff which they update with more fleshed out codices as time goes on.

Because they're updating every codex and due to the saturation of Marine 'dexes it takes a while for them to get around to it.

Because the games developers suffer from the same thing I do.

When it comes to working on Space Marines, you can only do so many at a time before you get bored and want to do something different.

 Jayden63 wrote:
The main reason that the Wolves seem neglected is that it is now post 2010. Before this decade started we got a new codex, new models, a very compatible rule set, several Black Library novels, and a few other gibs and gobs thrown in. It was a very good time to be a SW fan.

However, all of that attention helped spur on a lot of early hate and for some reason its still currently strongly felt by a select vocal few (I'd argue its currently unjustified).

SW need to just wait their turn in the scheme of GW releases. Their day will come eventually just like BA, DE, Etc.

You mean besides the fact that they've usually been SM + 1 since 2nd edition? Better then the rest point per point, not to mention the terrible fluff, constant mary sue characters, the fact that they are justified as heroes and anti-heroes but are still better in everything..

I'd argue its very, very justified, if people think Ultramarines are constantly praised they should view wolves.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
To be fair, are there any other games that actually have as many factions and units for those factions as 40k?

I've never put much stock in any argument that the size of 40k's unit/faction selection makes it that much more difficult. Consider that 6 books are all power armour variant forces, with three of them being nearly identical save a few bits of wargear and some characters, I'd argue that other games have at least a comparable number of total things to balance and work out.

Further, the number of units/factions wouldn't take any considerable amount of time longer to balance/release when you have a 4 year span to figure it out. The difference between balancing 8 and 12 factions starts to become meaningless over that much of a time span for a company that invests the money and effort into balancing and cooperating with the player base/dedicated beta test group.

I mean, sure, 40k has a lot of 'codices' or 'factions', but a few of them now are single unit books, like Knights. Poor Sisters are still left out in the rain, and the BT finally got axed, which leaves us with 14 books/factions (including Sisters). Of those, 4 are Imperial Marines of some flavour, with Grey Knights being similar but not quite. Then you have Chaos Space Marines, which also share much of the basic concept and balance factors, which truly leaves you with 8 entirely distinct books.

I'm not an expert on other games, but speaking of Firestorm which I'm well acquainted with has 6 core factions and an allied book which has another 11 distinct (but smaller) factions. That game is infinitely better balanced and had updated all of the core factions at the release of the new edition, and the allies were released a month later. Admittedly, each faction has less in the way of unit entries, but making each faction play very differently, yet balanced, is the hardest part, not just being able to add in extra units that fill similar roles/functions.

So I don't think the argument about having a lot of factions stands up as an excuse for long release times. I think it boils down to a combination of their intended way of doing things (because its how they've always done it) and their general incompetence when it comes to rules and balance.

IMO Space Wolves aren't similar at all to Vanilla marines. They are rebels. They fight their own way and completely ignore the Codex Astartes. They also shun new technologies while using unique units like thunderwolf cavalry. The idea that they don't deserve their own codex makes no sense to me. I guess that's just a personal bias of mine.

Random Dude wrote:
They fight their own way and completely ignore the Codex Astartes.

By the fluff, sure.

By the way the codex works, not really.

Long Fangs are devs. Grey Hunters are Tacs. Sky Claws are Assault Marines. Bikes are bikes. Tanks are tanks. Elite terminators are elite terminators.

Really, the important differences are the Wolf Guard splitting thing, the veteran scouts and novice assault marines (though if scouts were WS/BS 4 it wouldn't matter at all) and the fetish for wolves and riding them.

But really, they could be rolled in with a chapter tactic, a unique unit for the thunderwolf cavalry, and a few characters with some additional rules/benefits/changes. Nothing in their codex is so distinct that it doesn't have a nearly identical unit in the base codex. Much of it are some name changes and incredibly minor wargear differences that exist only to create a reason for them to exist.

There'd be nothing stopping Wolves players from calling their power swords 'Frost Swords', or their Terminators as 'Wolf Guard', or their Tac squads as 'Grey Hunters'. Salamander players make do with their Firedrakes represented by ordinary terminators, despite being a legendary aspect of the chapter.

A lot of players get caught up on the tiny details with determining how unique or distinct a chapter is. Having access to frost weapons, or having one more heavy weapon in your dev squad isn't what defines the flavour of the Wolves. Playing a certain style of army with a particular paint job and referring to your units by whatever they're called in the fluff is what makes them what they are. Worrying about losing the identity of your chapter by losing a special weapon slot on your tac squads is missing the forest for the trees.

There are countless marine armies that have no published rules. These armies are still lovingly built, painted, modified and played with using one of the marine books and building their force to represent how they would fight by the fluff. Some might craft some homebrews for legendary heroes, or a particularly unique unit that helps define their chapter. But the way a marine army differs from another is not based on the small differences in wargear or unit composition. Its a multitude of factors that are far more important than having a slightly different kind of power sword.

In short, a well done marine book for all loyalist marines (and another for all chaos/renegads) would provide all marine players with an easy to access, all inclusive book with options for everyone to make any chapter conceivable, while not sacrificing the basic defining elements of each main chapter we all know and love.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Neglected? Even as a 5th edition codex, Space Wolves were a sick codice up until the 7th edition FAQ's, which were released just a few weeks ago.

I see you did not play 6th edition.

I see you've never played Space Wolves.

Space Wolves had arguably the best libarian in the game, the best psychic defense in the game and still have have the best tactical squad in the game.

Yet they remained mid tier at best, you need a few more games under your belt son.