Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ok so after reading up on the Looted wagon rules, I do have to say that I did feel as if the rules were... Well... C+P and made in two minutes in an odd coffey break and honestly I just felt as if this was just not plain cricket.

So I thought, why not give them a complete new makeover for the new book, for a bit of fun

And so here is my interpretation of how the Looted Wagon should have been:

Looted Wagon......................................................30pts

BS: 2 F:10 S:10 R:10 HP: 3

Unit Type: Vehicle (Tank, Open-topped, Transport)

Unit Composition:

1 Looted Wagon

Special Rules:

Don't Press Dat: Roll 1D6 for each units of Looted Wagons at the start of the shooting phase. On a roll of a 1, the Looted Wagon must move flat out, even if it performed a tank shock earlier in the turn.

Lucky Stripez: this upgrade will give the Looted Wagon the Fast special rule.

Grot Gunnerz: This upgrade will give the Looted Wagon +1 BS.

Boomgun: The Boomgun follows the following statline:

Range: 36" Str: 8 AP: 3 Special: Ordanance 1, Large Blast

Transport:

Transport Capacity: fifteen models

Fire points: If a Looted Wagon has the 'ard case upgrade it has four fire points one at either side of the hull, one at the front of the hull and one at the rear of the hull.

Access points: If a Looted wagon has the 'ard case upgrade then it has here access points, one at either side of the hull and one at the rear of the hull.

Options:

May include up to two additional Looted Wagons: 30pts per model

May take one of the following (if it does take one of these specific options then the transport capacity is reduced to 10 models) :

Boomgun: 30pts per model
Killakannon: 15pts per model
Zzap Gun: 15pts per model
Kannon: 10pts per model
Lobba: 10pts per model
Bubblechukka: 15pts per model
Kustom Mega-Kannon: 15pts per model
Smasha Gun: 10pts per model
Traktor Kannon: 20pts per model
Two Twin-Linked Deffgunz: 15pts per model
Deffstorm Mega Shoota: 30pts per model

You may also upgrade the Front Armour Values of the Looted Wagon to a maximum of Armour Value 14:
Front Armour: 15pts for each additional point of AV, per model

You may upgrade the Side Armour Values of the Looted Wagon to a maximum of Armour Value of 12:
Side Armour: 15pts for each additional point of AV, per model

You can also upgrade the Rear Armour Value of a Looted Wagon up to a maximum of Armour Value 12:
Rear Armour: 15pts for each additional point of AV, per model
Rear Armour15pts for each additional point of AV, per model

May Take upto 4 of the following:

Big Shoota: 5pts each per model
Rokkit Launcher: 5pts each per model
Skorcha: 5pts each per model
Kustom Mega Blasta: 10pts each per model
Burna: 3pts each per model
Deffgun: 10pts per model

May Take any of the Following:
Deffrola: 10pts per model
'Ard case: 15pts per model
Grabbin Klaw: 5pts per model
Lucky Stripes: 5pts per model*
Grot gunnerz: 10pts per model

May take equipment from the Ork Vehicle Equipment list.

*Note if the Looted Wagon takes any of the following options:
Boomgun
Killakannon
Zzap Gun
Kannon
Lobba
Bubblechukka
Kustom Mega-Kannon
Smasha Gun
Traktor Kannon
Two Twin-Linked Deffgunz
Deffstorm Mega Shoota

Then the model for the Looted Wagon is not able to take the Lucky Stripez upgrade.


Ok so what was the aim of this?

This was to really make Looted Wagons... Well... Looted and custom to really make a good squadron of Looted battle tanks scrapped and cobbled together by the Meks into each Warboss' image, this was to basically really have fun making Looted wagons to cover a wide range of vehicles with one type of unit, and to also make the atmosphere of a Looted Wagon feel lifelike and give it some soul for each Ork Player to enjoy.

What I want to know, is what is your opinion of this loadout? is there anything you feel that is too expensive? Too cheap? and if anyone wants to playest these rules and give me feedback then I would also appreciate that

Bearing in mind that this is meant to be more of a fun loadout than a competitive one, but also one to give more variety to everyone out there

So would love to hear your opinions on it and why you would think that

Cheers to all comments

I've no idea on whether or not this is balanced, but I definitely like the options!

A nice selection of options.
You forgot to state its number of hullpoints.

I suppose its transport capacity should be lowered if some of those big single weapons are chosen, like boomgun etc.

Mabe limits its front/side armour to 13? that way the battlewagon still has its shtick of being the toughest vehicle. I know that looted leman russes would be weaker, but hey the mek probably used some lousy grots to fix it anyway.

Whats the reasoning behind different point costs on Bubblechukka, Mega-kannon, traktor kannon and smasha gun? they all cost the same as mek gunz. I also think some of those point values are slightly too low.
1point burnas seems far too cheap, but as your skorcha already costs 5 points I cant see them as being more expensive and still viable. Maybe delete them completely and just have the skorchas?

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/d/Dred_Mob.pdf The big trakk here has some very nice weapon options too, maybe have a look at some of those for inspiration.

Another thought, what about the possibility to upgrade it to a fast vehicle? or even a skimmer? after all eldar get clobbered by orks sometimes too

Grot gunners: +1 BS?

10pts?

Britneyfan12 wrote:
A nice selection of options.
You forgot to state its number of hullpoints.

I suppose its transport capacity should be lowered if some of those big single weapons are chosen, like boomgun etc.

Mabe limits its front/side armour to 13? that way the battlewagon still has its shtick of being the toughest vehicle. I know that looted leman russes would be weaker, but hey the mek probably used some lousy grots to fix it anyway.

Whats the reasoning behind different point costs on Bubblechukka, Mega-kannon, traktor kannon and smasha gun? they all cost the same as mek gunz. I also think some of those point values are slightly too low.
1point burnas seems far too cheap, but as your skorcha already costs 5 points I cant see them as being more expensive and still viable. Maybe delete them completely and just have the skorchas?

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/d/Dred_Mob.pdf The big trakk here has some very nice weapon options too, maybe have a look at some of those for inspiration.

Another thought, what about the possibility to upgrade it to a fast vehicle? or even a skimmer? after all eldar get clobbered by orks sometimes too

Ok yeah fair do's you have valid points, plus I was half asleep when making the rules so anything goes when you're half asleep haha

The reasoning behind the points values for the following weapons you mentioned was that to me I thought it was a middle ground so to speak, I thought that 20 or more points was too expensive for its cost on the vehicle however anything below 15pts was too cheap.

I was also trying to account for its situations the Looted Wagon would be placed in as to me compared with other options others would be much more viable to some people than others (such as a Boomgun may be more viable to some than a Lobba and vice versa) however depending on the situation, certain weapons maybe more useful in a situation however but will lack more power as others (such as the example from the Boomgun and the Lobba), another reason why I made the points values the way they are..

Yeah I can see an upgrade for a fast vehicle, will be editing that in


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 YourIntestines wrote:
Grot gunners: +1 BS?

10pts?

Will add that in


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Michael wrote:
I've no idea on whether or not this is balanced, but I definitely like the options!

It was meant to be rather a fun unit to use, since tourneys would never allow these rules in their games

Yeah, I agree with a lot of the stuff here. A looted Rhino should be a lot different to a looted Landraider, and the rules should reflect this, giving players more options not only in list building but with conversions as well.

I would perhaps give the option for the Wagon to take certain Imperium guns (or guns from other races) such as a Lascannon or an Assault Cannon, but give these weapons the Gets Hot! rule, to represent the Orks' tendency to mess up with the unfamiliar technology.

 The Shadow wrote:
Yeah, I agree with a lot of the stuff here. A looted Rhino should be a lot different to a looted Landraider, and the rules should reflect this, giving players more options not only in list building but with conversions as well.

I would perhaps give the option for the Wagon to take certain Imperium guns (or guns from other races) such as a Lascannon or an Assault Cannon, but give these weapons the Gets Hot! rule, to represent the Orks' tendency to mess up with the unfamiliar technology.

Wouldn't it make sense to have hull points variable too?
Have 2 hull points for tiny vehicles, 3 for normal ones, and 4 for huge ones, with cost to scale.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
Yeah, I agree with a lot of the stuff here. A looted Rhino should be a lot different to a looted Landraider, and the rules should reflect this, giving players more options not only in list building but with conversions as well.

I would perhaps give the option for the Wagon to take certain Imperium guns (or guns from other races) such as a Lascannon or an Assault Cannon, but give these weapons the Gets Hot! rule, to represent the Orks' tendency to mess up with the unfamiliar technology.

Wouldn't it make sense to have hull points variable too?
Have 2 hull points for tiny vehicles, 3 for normal ones, and 4 for huge ones, with cost to scale.

Aye, after thinking long and hard about it I had decided to leave it at 3HP mainly because if I give the unit 2HP to upgrade to more then there would have to be restrictions which may make the Looted Wagon too fiddly to make into a list and to upgrade it to 4HP would mean we would be treading onto battlewagon territory, so I'm just going to leave it at 3 HP

loving this!

The looted wagon has been in need of this kind of kustom rules for a long time!

I think a lot more ork stuff needs this kind of flexibility.

A couple of things I'd like to see:

Red Wunz go Fasta: +1" movement for 5 points

I think that it's probably better to stick to guns that are in the codex rather than include ones from the IA8 book, (while there are some very great guns in there), purely for ease of reference.

I'd love to see rules for a front mounted skorcha variant (think hell hound) reduces transport to 5, explodes an extra D6"... but maybe I'm over complicating things.

Burna's: is the 1pts a typo, did you mean 10pts (which seems a good cost)

MechanicusOmnisWrex wrote:


loving this!

The looted wagon has been in need of this kind of kustom rules for a long time!

I think a lot more ork stuff needs this kind of flexibility.

A couple of things I'd like to see:

Red Wunz go Fasta: +1" movement for 5 points

I think that it's probably better to stick to guns that are in the codex rather than include ones from the IA8 book, (while there are some very great guns in there), purely for ease of reference.

I'd love to see rules for a front mounted skorcha variant (think hell hound) reduces transport to 5, explodes an extra D6"... but maybe I'm over complicating things.

Burna's: is the 1pts a typo, did you mean 10pts (which seems a good cost)

Burna's are 1pt, mainly because they are a standard flamer and should be cheaper than a skorcha and also should be used for low points games as they were probably intended for.

As for new weapons, I was thinking on it, and give it torrent but gets hot as well, to show the promethium is highly unstable with Ork tech..

1pt is too low, and burnas were never intended to be mounted on vehicles.

Make them 3 or 4 points, or remove them entirely.

Some form of orkified demolisher cannon? 60pts?

Also, up the killkannon to 20 or 25 pts.

 YourIntestines wrote:
1pt is too low, and burnas were never intended to be mounted on vehicles.

Make them 3 or 4 points, or remove them entirely.

Some form of orkified demolisher cannon? 60pts?

Also, up the killkannon to 20 or 25 pts.

I have kept the Killakannon at 15pts as its a cheaper option to swap for the Boomgun when intended, and also it still gives it viability when competing for other options within the options section.

But probably will up the points to 3..

 happygolucky wrote:

 YourIntestines wrote:
1pt is too low, and burnas were never intended to be mounted on vehicles.

Make them 3 or 4 points, or remove them entirely.

Some form of orkified demolisher cannon? 60pts?

Also, up the killkannon to 20 or 25 pts.

I have kept the Killakannon at 15pts as its a cheaper option to swap for the Boomgun when intended, and also it still gives it viability when competing for other options within the options section.

But probably will up the points to 3..

I actually get the feeling that they are both (Killkannon and Boomgun) too cheap. Possibly add 5 or 10 points to them both?

Also, the the armour seems too expensive. To get the same armour as a battlewagon, you end up with a vehicle costing 120pts, 10 more than the battlewagon, despite having fewer hull points and a smaller transport capacity.

 YourIntestines wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:

 YourIntestines wrote:
1pt is too low, and burnas were never intended to be mounted on vehicles.

Make them 3 or 4 points, or remove them entirely.

Some form of orkified demolisher cannon? 60pts?

Also, up the killkannon to 20 or 25 pts.

I have kept the Killakannon at 15pts as its a cheaper option to swap for the Boomgun when intended, and also it still gives it viability when competing for other options within the options section.

But probably will up the points to 3..

I actually get the feeling that they are both (Killkannon and Boomgun) too cheap. Possibly add 5 or 10 points to them both?

Also, the the armour seems too expensive. To get the same armour as a battlewagon, you end up with a vehicle costing 120pts, 10 more than the battlewagon, despite having fewer hull points and a smaller transport capacity.

The Killacannon and Boomgun are reasonably priced for what they do, because as you say the points build up.

As for the AV the points are reasonably priced as yes it maybe 120pts but then again that will be front and side armour at 14 in which a battlewagon is not, a BW is side armour 14 so it should be a bit more expensive in that regard.

 happygolucky wrote:

The Killacannon and Boomgun are reasonably priced for what they do, because as you say the points build up.

As for the AV the points are reasonably priced as yes it maybe 120pts but then again that will be front and side armour at 14 in which a battlewagon is not, a BW is side armour 14 so it should be a bit more expensive in that regard.

If you mean the cost of the armour makes up for the cost of the guns, that is unfortunately not the way that 40k works.

I am very confused by your second point. I worked it out at equal armour values, and the looted wagon is 10 points more than a battlewagon.

I assume this is another case of late night writing?

 YourIntestines wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:

The Killacannon and Boomgun are reasonably priced for what they do, because as you say the points build up.

As for the AV the points are reasonably priced as yes it maybe 120pts but then again that will be front and side armour at 14 in which a battlewagon is not, a BW is side armour 14 so it should be a bit more expensive in that regard.

If you mean the cost of the armour makes up for the cost of the guns, that is unfortunately not the way that 40k works.

I am very confused by your second point. I worked it out at equal armour values, and the looted wagon is 10 points more than a battlewagon.

I assume this is another case of late night writing?

Maybe but the way I see it, is that if you have better armour compared to another choice then it should really cost more..

Plus compared with other choices in other codex's, 120pts is actually quite cheap..

And I somewhat know how points values work, according to GW dev's anyways, to them they sort of have a "feel" about a unit, then slap on a number and voila! a unit with points.

The way I try to do it is see similarities within units across a codex and then price options within what would be considered "normal" for that codex, so for Orks having a lot of weapons is what this unit is all about, however trying to keep cost to make each choice seem according to codex (and to not just easy looking at the unit to cherry pick options) means that stuff needs to be cheap, however for multiple choices to get maximum options does require that this unit will get bulked out (afterall the start up is just barebones and this unit is for players to want to see their reflective conversions as they should be, reflective of model and for their codex), meaning that unless you want cheap transports then this will probably not get spammed, its meant to be battle tanks of the Orks after all (something in which the Orks lack currently atm imo)..

 happygolucky wrote:

 YourIntestines wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:

The Killacannon and Boomgun are reasonably priced for what they do, because as you say the points build up.

As for the AV the points are reasonably priced as yes it maybe 120pts but then again that will be front and side armour at 14 in which a battlewagon is not, a BW is side armour 14 so it should be a bit more expensive in that regard.

If you mean the cost of the armour makes up for the cost of the guns, that is unfortunately not the way that 40k works.

I am very confused by your second point. I worked it out at equal armour values, and the looted wagon is 10 points more than a battlewagon.

I assume this is another case of late night writing?

Maybe but the way I see it, is that if you have better armour compared to another choice then it should really cost more..

Plus compared with other choices in other codex's, 120pts is actually quite cheap..

And I somewhat know how points values work, according to GW dev's anyways, to them they sort of have a "feel" about a unit, then slap on a number and voila! a unit with points.

The way I try to do it is see similarities within units across a codex and then price options within what would be considered "normal" for that codex, so for Orks having a lot of weapons is what this unit is all about, however trying to keep cost to make each choice seem according to codex (and to not just easy looking at the unit to cherry pick options) means that stuff needs to be cheap, however for multiple choices to get maximum options does require that this unit will get bulked out (afterall the start up is just barebones and this unit is for players to want to see their reflective conversions as they should be, reflective of model and for their codex), meaning that unless you want cheap transports then this will probably not get spammed, its meant to be battle tanks of the Orks after all (something in which the Orks lack currently atm imo)..

I get the feeling that this argument would go on forever.

Play-testing might help? Points can't be done by gut instinct alone.

 YourIntestines wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:

 YourIntestines wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:

The Killacannon and Boomgun are reasonably priced for what they do, because as you say the points build up.

As for the AV the points are reasonably priced as yes it maybe 120pts but then again that will be front and side armour at 14 in which a battlewagon is not, a BW is side armour 14 so it should be a bit more expensive in that regard.

If you mean the cost of the armour makes up for the cost of the guns, that is unfortunately not the way that 40k works.

I am very confused by your second point. I worked it out at equal armour values, and the looted wagon is 10 points more than a battlewagon.

I assume this is another case of late night writing?

Maybe but the way I see it, is that if you have better armour compared to another choice then it should really cost more..

Plus compared with other choices in other codex's, 120pts is actually quite cheap..

And I somewhat know how points values work, according to GW dev's anyways, to them they sort of have a "feel" about a unit, then slap on a number and voila! a unit with points.

The way I try to do it is see similarities within units across a codex and then price options within what would be considered "normal" for that codex, so for Orks having a lot of weapons is what this unit is all about, however trying to keep cost to make each choice seem according to codex (and to not just easy looking at the unit to cherry pick options) means that stuff needs to be cheap, however for multiple choices to get maximum options does require that this unit will get bulked out (afterall the start up is just barebones and this unit is for players to want to see their reflective conversions as they should be, reflective of model and for their codex), meaning that unless you want cheap transports then this will probably not get spammed, its meant to be battle tanks of the Orks after all (something in which the Orks lack currently atm imo)..

I get the feeling that this argument would go on forever.

Play-testing might help? Points can't be done by gut instinct alone.

I can certainly agree on that

Shall I Mathhammer (badly) out a list that I see as a potential to be unbalanced?

I think that killkannon spam could be a problem.

 YourIntestines wrote:
Shall I Mathhammer (badly) out a list that I see as a potential to be unbalanced?

I think that killkannon spam could be a problem.

Honestly with BS 2, as I have learned from past experience from my Mega-Dredd, is that if your firing a blast weapon.. its gonna go far..

 happygolucky wrote:

 YourIntestines wrote:
Shall I Mathhammer (badly) out a list that I see as a potential to be unbalanced?

I think that killkannon spam could be a problem.

Honestly with BS 2, as I have learned from past experience from my Mega-Dredd, is that if your firing a blast weapon.. its gonna go far..

But when you have 20, It is gonna go everywhere!

 YourIntestines wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:

 YourIntestines wrote:
Shall I Mathhammer (badly) out a list that I see as a potential to be unbalanced?

I think that killkannon spam could be a problem.

Honestly with BS 2, as I have learned from past experience from my Mega-Dredd, is that if your firing a blast weapon.. its gonna go far..

But when you have 20, It is gonna go everywhere!

All the BOOM!

Sounds good and Orky to me

 happygolucky wrote:

 YourIntestines wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:

 YourIntestines wrote:
Shall I Mathhammer (badly) out a list that I see as a potential to be unbalanced?

I think that killkannon spam could be a problem.

Honestly with BS 2, as I have learned from past experience from my Mega-Dredd, is that if your firing a blast weapon.. its gonna go far..

But when you have 20, It is gonna go everywhere!

All the BOOM!

Sounds good and Orky to me

But for the same price as 5 tactical squads seems somewhat excessive.

 YourIntestines wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:

 YourIntestines wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:

 YourIntestines wrote:
Shall I Mathhammer (badly) out a list that I see as a potential to be unbalanced?

I think that killkannon spam could be a problem.

Honestly with BS 2, as I have learned from past experience from my Mega-Dredd, is that if your firing a blast weapon.. its gonna go far..

But when you have 20, It is gonna go everywhere!

All the BOOM!

Sounds good and Orky to me

But for the same price as 5 tactical squads seems somewhat excessive.

Well players may just want that amount of pie plates for the laughs

 happygolucky wrote:

 YourIntestines wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:

 YourIntestines wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:

 YourIntestines wrote:
Shall I Mathhammer (badly) out a list that I see as a potential to be unbalanced?

I think that killkannon spam could be a problem.

Honestly with BS 2, as I have learned from past experience from my Mega-Dredd, is that if your firing a blast weapon.. its gonna go far..

But when you have 20, It is gonna go everywhere!

All the BOOM!

Sounds good and Orky to me

But for the same price as 5 tactical squads seems somewhat excessive.

Well players may just want that amount of pie plates for the laughs

It would be better with shokk attack guns.

Maybe force you to take some armour on your tanks before you can take a boomgun/killkannon. After all, if you were to strap an ordinance weapon to a trukk...

 YourIntestines wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:

 YourIntestines wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:

 YourIntestines wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:

 YourIntestines wrote:
Shall I Mathhammer (badly) out a list that I see as a potential to be unbalanced?

I think that killkannon spam could be a problem.

Honestly with BS 2, as I have learned from past experience from my Mega-Dredd, is that if your firing a blast weapon.. its gonna go far..

But when you have 20, It is gonna go everywhere!

All the BOOM!

Sounds good and Orky to me

But for the same price as 5 tactical squads seems somewhat excessive.

Well players may just want that amount of pie plates for the laughs

It would be better with shokk attack guns.

Maybe force you to take some armour on your tanks before you can take a boomgun/killkannon. After all, if you were to strap an ordinance weapon to a trukk...

Yes all the random

Hmm maybe