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Little brothers building an IG/AM army and likes the models but which is more effective? Haven't built a list yet so I couldn't tell you what would be supporting them, what are the advantages and disadvantages of each? Thanks!

Ogryn all the way. To explain why, it's easier to cover why I don't like Bulls:

In the base cost, you pay for a lot of stats that make you good at close combat, such as S/T5, A3 and W3, and this lends them to an aggressive role where their main objective is to get into CC as fast as possible and hurt stuff. Fine, but the catch comes when you're also paying for the Slab Shields, which provide better cover to units behind them, and this suggests they're best in a more restrained, defensive role. So really, unless you're playing an army where they come to you so you can defend and then counter-charge, you're wasting some of what you pay for in the base cost, be it the shield or the stats. This can be mitigated by the upgrade to a power maul and shield, but don't be fooled by the 15 point price tag; it's 15+whatever value you assigned to the Slab Shields you already paid for, so it's actually a rather expensive trade, and while it makes them more focused, they also clock in at 60ppm.

Ogryn, on the other hand, are focused only on close-quarters battle (shooting at point blank range then assaulting). Offensively, they're just as good as Bulls, they shoot better, and aren't wasting points on stats or equipment that will, one way or another, get wasted.

I heard people talking about using them as mobile cover saves for tanks...at least the expensive ones or w/e.

Can't say much else.

My vote goes with bulls. Their shields can move an entire army forward. They can soak up wounds while keeping your guys behind alive. Although I do respect what Paradigm says and very often he has good advice, listen to him.

The Bullgryn is only 5 points over an ogryn. The carapace armor is enough, but on top of that you can get them 3+ if in base to base, including in combat. To me, Bullgryn is always the choice over ogryns. The power maul upgrade is much more iffy, for the cost to upgrade three power mauls you could get a whole nother Bullgryn. The mauls are only really good against 4+ armies or maybe walkers.

Buy a leman russ instead

The +1 cover save would go nicely with camo cloaks I imagine. cheapish 5+ cover saves whilst advancing would help as it's pretty easy to ignore IG armour saves. Actually, would putting some bullgryns with an aegis lines in front of camo vets give them a 2+ cover save (4+ aegis > 3+ cloak > 2+shield)? That would be quite durable!

I'd also say regular ogryn, actually.

Big-shield ogryn are stuck without having really anything serious to do with shooting, and once you get stuck in close combat, aren't even the best close combat ogryn. Their killing power is just pretty wimpy. And for that you pay a pretty big price tag. And for what? to give people a slightly better cover save? Why not buy an aegis and stick it mid-field? That way you get 25" of cover saves instead of the small extra-cover shadow you get from a tiny number of ogryn that have to be in base contact. They just don't have a big enough footprint to save all that much.

If you want bullgryn, then the power stick ones are the way to go. A ++ save is just better than a cover save in general but especially, of course, in close combat. Meanwhile, S7 means more serious wounding, especially against tougher stuff like vehicles and MCs, but even wounding T4 on 2's is nice. Plus, they have Ap, which means they're going to obliterate chaff units they come across.

Clearly they're the way to go... unless you're just going to take regular ogryn. Regular ogryn are less cool, I'll grant, and they're also not as powerful either. But the price difference between ripper guns and stick and board is shocking.

What's going to be better, some nasty ogryn in CC, or TWICE AS MANY ogryn that get to run around shooting at stuff with a two-foot threat range with assault heavy bolters? Bullgryn are going to be cool when you get to use them. Regular ogryn, though, are always going to get to do at least something every game.

Moved to the 40k Tactics forum.

I'm not sure. I like both units well. For ogryns the ripper gun is great. High volume of fire, high strength. I have been using a unit of five/six bullgryn that go in front of Pask (punisher, heavy bolters, camo netting/ 2nd tank the same). This is nice, bullgryn move as fast as tanks, and a three +cover save is nice. Also, keeping the bullgryn in base contact with each other and 3+ armor save.

But for the price of six bullgryn you could just get another couple of punishers. Which would equivocate the best part of the best case scenario with the ogryn, and then be better in every other case.

The problem with the big shield ogryn is that their damage is so mediocre, you can almost think of them as nothing more than a durability upgrade for the units behind them. Really, really expensive durability upgrades.

Since we're looking at Ogryns as a whole, why not pimp them out?

Five Bullgryns with mauls and shields and a priest, take a primaris to fish for endurance or maybe forewarning and misfortune?

Of course all of this comes to about 400 points and that's not including the transport you'd need for these guys. I love the idea of ogryns, but at that sort of price I suppose Ailaros is right (shocker there), why not just get two more tanks?

... actually... ogryn are very bulky now...

They don't get to ride in transports anymore.

 Ailaros wrote:
... actually... ogryn are very bulky now...

They don't get to ride in transports anymore.

Why not? I don't see anything that restricts Very Bulky models from riding in transports.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
... actually... ogryn are very bulky now...

They don't get to ride in transports anymore.

Why not? I don't see anything that restricts Very Bulky models from riding in transports.

\

And they count as three models in transports. They won't be able to fit anything meaningful inside a transport.

I'm just going to try out a unit of five to be in front of pask this weekend for a local tournament. Just in the mood for fun play and enjoyable games.