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I think the difference is that you are supporting someone's decision to break the law, by profiting off selling you recasts, even if you aren't breaking the law yourself. As he said he doesn't know what other criminal activity the person gets up to.


I think it's all pretty ridiculous to be honest. I watch my TV shows online. I somehow managed not to go on a cop killing murder spree or start a child trafficking ring. The only recaster I know is my 22 year old university friend, who in the army reserve and works a small job on the side. He hates G.W. and their undeniable overpricing, and cannot afford to play otherwise, so they have driven people to this point. He is happy to help friends by casting for them if we throw him a few dollars for his time.

 SHUPPET wrote:
I think the difference is that you are supporting someone's decision to break the law, by profiting off selling you recasts, even if you aren't breaking the law yourself. As he said he doesn't know what other criminal activity the person gets up to.


I think it's all pretty ridiculous to be honest. I watch my TV shows online. I somehow managed not to go on a cop killing murder spree or start a child trafficking ring. The only recaster I know is my 22 year old university friend, who in the army reserve and works a small job on the side. He hates G.W. and their undeniable overpricing, and cannot afford to play otherwise, so they have driven people to this point. He is happy to help friends by casting for them if we throw him a few dollars for his time.

Stores that sell recasts (the ones that cant be named) dont make them themselves though. Recasts are made buy a select few sellers then are distributed to those stores. For example, all those Reaver Titans you see? they are all made by the same guy. So if you ever buy a reaver titan recast, you know the quality will be great because that guy is renown for his amazing quality. So at worse, if you buy from the unnameable stores you are simply supporting that store buying from many counterfeiters. But if thats how someone feels, then they should just buy direct from the caster.

The recatser I know is just a guy who loves the models and playing fantasy who happens to live in china with a fair bit of cash and decided to start casting models and sell them to people. No webstore or anything.

But believe it or not, most of those sites we all know, dont have a lot of those models in stock physically. They are made to order most of the time with only the most popular kits on hand. Recasting isnt as huge as it looks. So if you order a recast and it takes more than 1 week to ship, you know its being made for you after you ordered it. Its not that big of a market im fairly sure. Not big enough to stock a lot of kits anyway.

Just like how the Tau Manta Ray is a made on order kit. Doesnt sell many so no point having a bunch sit there.

 azreal13 wrote:

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

Alpha 1 wrote:


2) Counterfeiters do not specialize if they make GW products they could also be making counterfeit cloths,medication,car parts,aircraft parts,electronics, make up, perfume, children toys, food ,military electronics

Bear in mind, for those who like to 'Stick it to GW' that the recasters in question, even if they aren't producing dodgy medication or baby food, will probably be counterfieting Kromlech stuff.

Your counterfeiter isn't sticking it to The Man. He is THe Man.

Yeah....

No.

Spend five minutes browsing any of the multiple web locations we aren't allowed to mention by name (which in many cases are also chock full of legitimate product for substantially less than their UK RRP, with free shipping) and it is GW, GW, GW. Maybe the occasional Andrea or similar large collector's piece which, again, is vulnerable due to a high mark up.

If you were to find any of the smaller third party models, I'd suggest that comes down to the recaster being a wargamer and doing a bit on the side, and liking the model himself.

If you were to find any..

Actually I spent 5 seconds and found nonGW on the first site I came across. There seem to be quite a few. No just one or two items.


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At 1/3 the retail price, with free shipping. Sounds a little suspicious. I don't think they are authentic or legitimate products.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Update: my goodness, even Perry Miniatures can be found there. Wow.

I've spent enough time browsing those sites to be a tad skeptical that you've looked at the right thing or in the right places..

I hadn't meant that it was wargaming product that was available legitimately, but there ARE legitimate sellers of wargames product on at least some, but the price is comparable with domestic, as you'd expect.

The best suppliers usually deal in word of mouth and email chains. Seen many folks talking about these types.

The concept of intellectual property, at least in the modern context, is in dire need of reform. Protecting an investment that requires substantial human effort (time, capital) in the form of research and development: 20 year patent.

Mickey Mouse brain fart idea: life time of author + 70 years.

Yeah, no. Sorry. If you're really good at creative art, you can excel and be famous at what you do. If you're efficient, you can sell a great service. But to go around hunting people down on little brain farts of ideas seems nonsense and a huge waste of resources. Art has merit and has its place, but sustainability from the arts is asking a bit much unless you're really good or supporting some form of major entertainment industry.

If Copyright followed Patents, which even the latter are pretty messed up, more so when applied to technolgies, Star Wars and Warhammer 40k would already be in the public domain. Think about that, instead of litigation, Games Workshop would have to keep being creative and offer the best service possibly while doing so. Instead, we get what we have now. Space Marines inside Space Marines (which is all a bullcrap ripoff of previous works throughout the 80s and 90s...). Copyright is arbitrary and dumb and copyright infringement is a waste.

I actively purchase models from game companies, I buy video games, I have Netflix, I use the library for books. I get nearly all of my media through legitimate means because I feel when you create a good product or service, you can get my dollars. There doesn't need to be a law for this. More so one that highly weights it more than massive engineering and scientific undertakings that have changed the world.

TechDirt covers this topic a great deal:

I wouldn't mind, and if it's painted, how would you know? (if it is a good recast).

 azreal13 wrote:
I've spent enough time browsing those sites to be a tad skeptical that you've looked at the right thing or in the right places..

I hadn't meant that it was wargaming product that was available legitimately, but there ARE legitimate sellers of wargames product on at least some, but the price is comparable with domestic, as you'd expect.

Well, I just googled and it popped up. They were selling unit boxes for Warmachine at 19USD per box. I thought that was pretty low considering PP lists the same box of Cryx Satyxis Raiders at 59. Was there a sharp price drop recently?

If these are not legitimate, at least we know that they will counterfeit anything, as long as there is profit.

WYSIWYG the way it is, GW doesn't even give you the proper components to play 40k.

If you want to play Mech IG and use Melta Vets, where are you going to get a ton of Melta Guns? The only IG Melta Guns come in the Command Squad box. Say you have 4 squads of Melta Vets and a CCS. That's 16 Melta Guns. Do they really want you to buy 16 Command Squad boxes?


If you don't want people to recast parts then sell them complete kits.

 milkboy wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
I've spent enough time browsing those sites to be a tad skeptical that you've looked at the right thing or in the right places..

I hadn't meant that it was wargaming product that was available legitimately, but there ARE legitimate sellers of wargames product on at least some, but the price is comparable with domestic, as you'd expect.

Well, I just googled and it popped up. They were selling unit boxes for Warmachine at 19USD per box. I thought that was pretty low considering PP lists the same box of Cryx Satyxis Raiders at 59. Was there a sharp price drop recently?

If these are not legitimate, at least we know that they will counterfeit anything, as long as there is profit.

I found those. Those are resin, thus obviously cheaper than the metal counterparts. Also, we know PP prices are high, but the value is better than Games Workshop. When you spend $59 for a box, you're done unlike...




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 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
WYSIWYG the way it is, GW doesn't even give you the proper components to play 40k.

If you want to play Mech IG and use Melta Vets, where are you going to get a ton of Melta Guns? The only IG Melta Guns come in the Command Squad box. Say you have 4 squads of Melta Vets and a CCS. That's 16 Melta Guns. Do they really want you to buy 16 Command Squad boxes?


If you don't want people to recast parts then sell them complete kits.

This person gets it.

 Kojiro wrote:
they came from China but there's only so many ways to get those last few 1989 marines.... and the prices were good. But then they showed up and looked so shiny...

Shinyness or lack thereof is NOT an indicator of whether or not they are recasts. When GW went lead-free in the 90s, they themselves ALSO did a whole bunch of shiny casts (the newer alloy had a LOT of tin in it, and was very shiny, hard and brittle, too - pieces when clipped off had a habit of ricocheting off walls).

Coming from China is ALSO not, in and of itself a good indicator. The two together is a better indicator, but these alone are also not considered "proof".

A good recast cannot be told from the original (unless the original or copy are in different materials). I have "identical" (as in catalog numbers, out of GW blisters bought OFF the rack at a GW store) models that are cast from different metals. Pre/post metal changeover.

I actively purchase models from game companies, I buy video games, I have Netflix, I use the library for books. I get nearly all of my media through legitimate means because I feel when you create a good product or service, you can get my dollars. There doesn't need to be a law for this. More so one that highly weights it more than massive engineering and scientific undertakings that have changed the world.

True if something is worth it and you don't feel like the seller is making a fool of you , you can do many things. I have 3 editions of Wheel of time. A polish one , the black border english one , the old colored one too and If I could get my hands on the ones from Japan I would instantly buy them.

 milkboy wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
I've spent enough time browsing those sites to be a tad skeptical that you've looked at the right thing or in the right places..

I hadn't meant that it was wargaming product that was available legitimately, but there ARE legitimate sellers of wargames product on at least some, but the price is comparable with domestic, as you'd expect.

Well, I just googled and it popped up. They were selling unit boxes for Warmachine at 19USD per box. I thought that was pretty low considering PP lists the same box of Cryx Satyxis Raiders at 59. Was there a sharp price drop recently?

If these are not legitimate, at least we know that they will counterfeit anything, as long as there is profit.

It depends. A lot of PP comes in 6 or 10 man boxes; be sure that your comparing like vs like. There are plenty of legitimate sellers that often have fantastic deals (30% off or better) like Discount Games Store. The six man raider box retails for $29.99 so you'd be able to find them legitimately for around $20; I didn't look hard and found them for $23.

 azreal13 wrote:
[..., but I'm fairly sure lying and deceiving in the clear cut sense of selling something as one thing when it is another is universally frowned upon.

Not really, no. In some cultures the onus is on the buyer to have done their homework and know what they are buying, in the expectation that obviously the seller is going to say whatever he needs to say in order to persuade you to buy his product...

 Swastakowey wrote:

Whats the difference between recasting yourself and paying someone else to recast?

Is it ok to break the law as long as you do it yourself and not pay someone else to do it or something? I really cant a see a difference there.

Just wondering.

I don't knowingly buy counterfeit items. I don't care if my money goes towards someone's nice house or camel smuggling or funding North Korea's economy, I don't want to give my money to criminals.
Am I a hypocrite? Yes. I've copied music CD's onto blank CD's and cassettes so I can keep the original in a safe place and use the copy in the car or at work.
But, I did the copying work. No money changed hands and I get to enjoy the product of musicians in a greater range of locations.
What *would* that musician get, if I bought a second copy of their album? An extra 50p?

If I were to recast something it'd be because I need one or a few of those items, that would be economically wasteful to purchase in their original boxset. Right now I need some Cadian torso's, and it's uneconomic to spend almost £20 on a boxset when I only need five (at most) out of a hundred components. I don't want to buy these items from a bitz seller online because I still think paying £1 each for them (plus postage) is excessive. It would be cheaper to cast my own.
If Games Workshop still had their mail order bitz service I would happily have bought torsos (as well as other parts) from them because, as the manufacturer, they'd be able to make and supply everything I needed - something no bitz seller has been able to do for me.


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 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

If you want to play Mech IG and use Melta Vets, where are you going to get a ton of Melta Guns? The only IG Melta Guns come in the Command Squad box. Say you have 4 squads of Melta Vets and a CCS. That's 16 Melta Guns. Do they really want you to buy 16 Command Squad boxes?

Exactly my point. Now, if GW's Bitz Service was still in operation they'd have made a few bucks from you and me. But it's not, so they don't. Whose loss is it?

 Chrissy_J wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

Whats the difference between recasting yourself and paying someone else to recast?

Is it ok to break the law as long as you do it yourself and not pay someone else to do it or something? I really cant a see a difference there.

Just wondering.

I don't knowingly buy counterfeit items. I don't care if my money goes towards someone's nice house or camel smuggling or funding North Korea's economy, I don't want to give my money to criminals.
Am I a hypocrite? Yes. I've copied music CD's onto blank CD's and cassettes so I can keep the original in a safe place and use the copy in the car or at work.
But, I did the copying work. No money changed hands and I get to enjoy the product of musicians in a greater range of locations.
What *would* that musician get, if I bought a second copy of their album? An extra 50p?

If I were to recast something it'd be because I need one or a few of those items, that would be economically wasteful to purchase in their original boxset. Right now I need some Cadian torso's, and it's uneconomic to spend almost £20 on a boxset when I only need five (at most) out of a hundred components. I don't want to buy these items from a bitz seller online because I still think paying £1 each for them (plus postage) is excessive. It would be cheaper to cast my own.
If Games Workshop still had their mail order bitz service I would happily have bought torsos (as well as other parts) from them because, as the manufacturer, they'd be able to make and supply everything I needed - something no bitz seller has been able to do for me.

So you admit to being a hypocrite. Thats fine by me then, as long as you acknowledge so. So in other words you want to keep all the benefits of recasting to yourself and not share it.

So GW gave you extra legs for posability, but you decided you want to abuse this and get extra torso bits to get around the limit of 10 men per box instead of buying another box or instead of buying a box of 5 snap-fits.

Dude, stop trying to justify your recasting Just admit that its technically wrong and that you recast (if you do). There is no difference to recasting some torso's to avoid buying a GW kit, and paying someone else to give you a GW kit instead of buying it from GW. None at all.

Its uneconomic to buy a reaver titan from FW for that ridiculous price when I could buy one for 500 NZD. Its cutting costs exactly like casting extra torso bits to get around the 10 man per box purchase. They are both the same thing.

Quote I like:

“I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.” ― Robert A. Heinlein

Funny how it was pointed out that GW needed to "factor in" copying of their product and increase their product price accordingly.

If the prices were reasonable, very few would copy or purchase copies of the product.

I have a particular dislike for product where the strategy is to get "impulse" sales which GW tries for.

Anyway, on-topic there would be few instances we would have any way of knowing if the models were re-casts so it is a bit contrived.

I voted no. Of course that is assuming I could even tell what my opponent was using.

There are two places that I play games: my house and the FLGS. At my house, I know exactly where all of the mini's came from and I refuse to support recasters.

My FLGS provides a solid gaming environment. Because of this I believe supporting them with my purchases is very important. As a side bonus, they give great discounts.

So if someone is playing at the FLGS with recast mini's then they are very likely not supporting the FLGS in any way. Which means there are now two strikes against them in my book. I like both my FLGS and GW and would like to see them continue to do business for at least as long as I'm in this hobby. That means buying the real stuff.

To be blunt (and only focussing on one aspect).. all this talk of supporting the FLGS. I've been to a number of GW stores and

A) The majority are friendly in so far as they talk to you and try to get you to buy everything and it becomes pushy.

B) They have a 'ticket' system by which you only get to play games in them if you have earned 'tickets' from buying things. This means that as you get closer to completing your army, you aren't allowed to play anymore because you're not earning tickets. It's a reel-'em-in, suck-'em-dry and discard strategy that is less than friendly.

Can we change the FLGS to just LGS because I find them distinctly only FLGS as long as they can suck the money from your wallet

 Wulfmar wrote:


B) They have a 'ticket' system by which you only get to play games in them if you have earned 'tickets' from buying things. This means that as you get closer to completing your army, you aren't allowed to play anymore because you're not earning tickets. It's a reel-'em-in, suck-'em-dry and discard strategy that is less than friendly.

They have a 'ticket' system? Which store is this? I thought the manager who'd instituted a system like this has been reprimanded?

 Talizvar wrote:
Quote I like:

“I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.” ― Robert A. Heinlein

Funny how it was pointed out that GW needed to "factor in" copying of their product and increase their product price accordingly.

If the prices were reasonable, very few would copy or purchase copies of the product.

I have a particular dislike for product where the strategy is to get "impulse" sales which GW tries for.

Anyway, on-topic there would be few instances we would have any way of knowing if the models were re-casts so it is a bit contrived.

Well, factoring in the cost of piracy is a big deal to many manufacturers. I'm sure there is a legitimate process for adding that cost into their business model, I don't actually doubt that.

Thing is, so long as anyone can cheat the company, regardless of how much their product costs, people will do it. I have heard of multiple households sharing one netflix connection because it's cheaper.

Really, it's 8.00 a month and they work where I work, so I know they are pulling down minimum 60/year, and they have senority on me, so probably a little over 70.

Just goes to show, people will always steal, even if they don't need it or really gain anything from it. I hate to be the guy to quote batman, but some people really do just want to watch the world burn.

How is it a cost to firms, when pirated stuff would never be bought at the original price. People that want a original are few , and buy the originals anyway, while those that bought recast would never buy stuff at the official cost.

If anything, GW is far more morally responsible for supporting criminals than anyone buying a couple of miniatures for their little army. GW's decision to greedily overcharge for everything with self-entitled ideals that their product is worth whatever they can make people pay for it, without even holding themselves to any standard of quality, is the reason that this market exists. They have made this lane a very profitable one for the recaster and a very thrifty one for the buyer, and in their greed they refuse to charge sensible prices to put an end to this, instead choosing to apparently tax the paying customer through price mark-ups for lost revenue in piracy. They have done nothing but very knowingly support the recaster, creating his lane and strengthening it, knowing what needs to be done to but being unwilling to sacrifice a cent of the undeserved percentage of their profit margin to do so. No, it's not letting the pirates win. It's charging a fair price for your product and taking back full control of the market and it's profits. The original decision to squeeze more out of your customer base by ramping up profit margins has given people a profitable way to make money selling your product for you at prices closer to what you should be selling them for.

Yes I would. Do not care where people get there stuff.

 SHUPPET wrote:
If anything, GW is far more morally responsible for supporting criminals than anyone buying a couple of miniatures for their little army. GW's decision to greedily overcharge for everything with self-entitled ideals that their product is worth whatever they can make people pay for it, without even holding themselves to any standard of quality, is the reason that this market exists. They have made this lane a very profitable one for the recaster and a very thrifty one for the buyer, and in their greed they refuse to charge sensible prices to put an end to this, instead choosing to apparently tax the paying customer through price mark-ups for lost revenue in piracy. They have done nothing but very knowingly support the recaster, creating his lane and strengthening it, knowing what needs to be done to but being unwilling to sacrifice a cent of the undeserved percentage of their profit margin to do so. No, it's not letting the pirates win. It's charging a fair price for your product and taking back full control of the market and it's profits. The original decision to squeeze more out of your customer base by ramping up profit margins has given people a profitable way to make money selling your product for you at prices closer to what you should be selling them for.

Exactly this have an exalt

I have two fire raptors one from FW and one from China, the one from China is the same quality in detail but the cast was far better I didn't have to straighten anything, postage was brilliant it took 2 weeks to get to my front door. The FW one however was shocking I had to return it and the replacement wasn't much better either.

The reason I have turned to buying from recasters is the fact that quality 9/10 is better than FW. GW and FW have become complacent and greedy and think people will buy their stock because it's legit WRONG why should I buy an inferior product for more than I get copied one ?? And no copy right stuff doesn't bother me

I also don't agree with the way FW makes it's money. Why should I pay them the extortionate postage ?? Oh yea right so they can try to force you to spend 250 so I can get the free postage.

wouldn't the same rule apply to scratch-build stuff?

i recently got introduced to the 'forgeryworld' of recasts and i havent looked back.
sure, there are some minor quality issues, but when an imperial avenger strike fighter is £23 instead of the official £85 including free shipping from CHINA, it makes me wonder how much forgeworld and GW have profited from me.
i own a warhound, 12 thallax, titan tech preist, LR achillies, 15 mk4 marines, mk4 command group, 2 valthex, and a storm eagle.

when i first saw 40k (around the time of the release of 2nd edition) i actually saw epic scale first and i wanted an epic style battle in 40k scale. now the chinese re-casts mean that me and my mates can actually afford to do it!

my final words are: you'd have to be a bit of a child to have an issue with an opponent using re-casts. (or just bitter that you spent loads on the same stuff) that said, there is a certain pride in having the genuine product.

Bello Canis was £317 but it makes me smile every time i look at it.

How do you know someone is playing with recasts unless they tell you?

Is it required to take samples of the resin/plastic that GW models are made of now so they can be analyzed?

Locally, people brag about their good deals. I've even heard people talk about "their source" while in a local store (not a GW store).

At my local about 10 people including the owner chucked in for a large forgeryworld order. He sells much more than GW products, laments the terrible pricing of GW with customers, but sells it anyway for everyone's convenience (and he'd be crazy not to have their products for sale in a gaming store).

I'd be quite the hypocrite if I said no, to say the truth. I tend to only get stuff I can't find at a FLGS, though - its always important to suppprt the stores I play in. For instance, my 3 Riptides? All from GW. Most of my FW? The LGS don't make money off that. Saves me some money I can in turn use at said stores.

Makumba wrote:
How is it a cost to firms, when pirated stuff would never be bought at the original price. People that want a original are few , and buy the originals anyway, while those that bought recast would never buy stuff at the official cost.

And you are 100% sure all people would 'never' had bought them, even if recasts were not a option at all? Did everyone who ever bought a recast would have just not bought the model if GW was the only source of it?

Point is, some people are able to pay, some people buy recasts as they are cheaper but without the option they would have payed the original price.

I see a lot of arguments stem from the assumption that people would have never have paid the owner for the product, so there is nothing taken from the owner. While that may be true of some people and some particular products, it will not be true for all.

It's not just GW stuff that's being replicated now, with the rise of smaller games there are other company recasts. X-Wing is one, but they are really crazy expensive models for the quality.