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Japan invading Mainland Asia is a pretty recent thing. For most of it's history Japan has been on the receiving end, not the other way around.

Japan and (South) Korea probably have more drinking stories about all the times China has invaded them (or tried to in Japan's case) than they have to complain about the number of times they've fought each other. Anyone thinking that Japan and Korea are more worried about each other than an enemy they've historically both been in conflict with for over 2000 years doesn't know they're history very well. Especially when they have the US to arbitrate and North Korea as an additional "that guy" for them to both be leery of.

Though at the rate things are going for North Korea China will be joining Japan and South Korea at that drinking table

Please don't post images with bad language in on Dakka.

Reds8n

At least the Germans have repented of for their forefather's crimes and have become a more enlightened and inclusive society. Japan hasn't. I don't like Japan.

1) They consistently refuse to even acknowledge that they committed atrocities against other nations
2) They are still extremely xenophobic and racist. Have a non Japanese (specifically Chinese or Korean) ancestor despite being 3/4 or more Japanese? You'll be discriminated against. It's completely insane. I can at least understand (but I don't condone) racism against those that don't look like you or have extremely different cultural values, but the Japanese, Korean, Chinese, and possibly Mongolians as well, might as well be all the same ethnic group. Yes, there are differences, between them, but any discrimination is even more absurd to me than a Dane discriminating against a German. Seriously, wtf Japan? They still treat foreigners poorly and even if you've lived there for years, speak the language fluently, and completely embrace the culture you are still an outsider.
3) Still excessively misogynistic. When you have to establish women's only trains/subways/etc to prevent groping there is a serious cultural problem.
4) Strange and perverted. It is greatly exaggerated by the internet, but it is still there. This is the country that brought us tentacle porn and the other god forsaken crap in hentai. Thanks, that's a great contribution to global culture.

Germany needs to rebuild its military and establish itself once again as a military power for the good of the global community. I couldn't care less about who establishes dominance in Asia. It'll be Japan or China, and both of those countries have serious institutional problems. It's really aggravating how much people harp on Americans for being racist and sexist when the two countries vying for control of Asia are much worse. That isn't to say America doesn't have room for improvement, but I don't think we appreciate how good we Americans have it here in comparison to other nations.

text removed.


Reds8n

2edgy4me.

You making friends like no tomorrow!

 trexmeyer wrote:
At least the Germans have repented of for their forefather's crimes and have become a more enlightened and inclusive society. Japan hasn't. I don't like Japan.

1) They consistently refuse to even acknowledge that they committed atrocities against other nations
2) They are still extremely xenophobic and racist. Have a non Japanese (specifically Chinese or Korean) ancestor despite being 3/4 or more Japanese? You'll be discriminated against. It's completely insane. I can at least understand (but I don't condone) racism against those that don't look like you or have extremely different cultural values, but the Japanese, Korean, Chinese, and possibly Mongolians as well, might as well be all the same ethnic group. Yes, there are differences, between them, but any discrimination is even more absurd to me than a Dane discriminating against a German. Seriously, wtf Japan? They still treat foreigners poorly and even if you've lived there for years, speak the language fluently, and completely embrace the culture you are still an outsider.
3) Still excessively misogynistic. When you have to establish women's only trains/subways/etc to prevent groping there is a serious cultural problem.
4) Strange and perverted. It is greatly exaggerated by the internet, but it is still there. This is the country that brought us tentacle porn and the other god forsaken crap in hentai. Thanks, that's a great contribution to global culture.

Germany needs to rebuild its military and establish itself once again as a military power for the good of the global community. I couldn't care less about who establishes dominance in Asia. It'll be Japan or China, and both of those countries have serious institutional problems. It's really aggravating how much people harp on Americans for being racist and sexist when the two countries vying for control of Asia are much worse. That isn't to say America doesn't have room for improvement, but I don't think we appreciate how good we Americans have it here in comparison to other nations.

I lived in S. Korea for 4 1/2 years and Japan for 2 1/2; I can tell you with some authority that your opinion is incorrect in that your assumptions are based on obvious stereotypes and misinformation promulgated by other countries in the region about Japan and Japanese culture.

1. Apologies. There seems to be this desire by China and S. Korea for every new Japanese government to abase themselves to everyone in the region when in fact Japan has apologized and recognized their wrongs on numerous occasions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan
It's kind of like your wife never letting you live down something you did. We let Germany get on with their lives but for some reason it's different for Japan.

2. You just described all of Asia. I had an old lady spit on my shoes in Daegu when I lived there and then yell at me for being an American (an assumption but correct one) in Korean. She was unprepared for my reasoned response in Korean and just huffed and walked away. I've been turned away from night-clubs in Pusan, refused services in coffee shops and just generally shunned for being not-Korean.

My point here is that there are "rednecks" in every country; when you start using a broad brush to paint an entire country because of the actions of a few, you're in danger of being a bigot yourself.

3. I'm not being condescending when I say this but you've never been around Asia have you? Look at India, look at China (killing daughters?), look at S. Korea; the list goes on. Not an excuse but in my personal experience, having visited nearly every country in Asia, women have more rights in Japan than most other places in Asia. I remember when I first lived in Korea women were not allowed to smoke in public; this started to change while I was there with the younger generation but it's still an example of how women are treated.

4. Again, broad brush much? Hentai is a sub-culture much like the one in Germany where people like to watch videos about other people defecating in other peoples' mouths. I think you will hard pressed to find people who say that a country's porn defines a nation's culture. Japan, like any country, has beautiful art, architecture, music...etc.

How long must a country "repent" or be punished for the actions of its forefathers?

A generation? A century? Time immemorial?

I find the inconsistency between how Germany is treated vs how Japan is treated to be bothersome to me.

Besides....I want to see real life Gundam before I die and this is their perfect opportunity to make it happen!

 TheMeanDM wrote:
How long must a country "repent" or be punished for the actions of its forefathers?

A generation? A century? Time immemorial?

I find the inconsistency between how Germany is treated vs how Japan is treated to be bothersome to me.

Besides....I want to see real life Gundam before I die and this is their perfect opportunity to make it happen!

Cultural views really. Despite the barbarity of the nation during the war, Germany is still more like us then Japan is, so it's easier to forgive.

 LoneLictor wrote:
Would someone tell me why Japan needs a military? Humor me for being stupid.

China...duh.

Interesting times in Japan under Abe. The country has been basically asleep at the wheel for almost 25 years, wandering between Liberal Democrat 'let's porkbarrel our way out of everything' and the various alternatives who've opted for various forms of 'do nothing'.

But it looks like Abe might actually be on to something. The revision of Article Nine is the one that's been picked up in international press, but there's a lot of long overdue reform going on in Japan. Abenomics debate has tended to focus on the monetary policy, but that's just one part of a move to lower taxes, expanded trade (and trade competitiveness) and deregulation. And then there's the increase in respect for women and their inclusion in the workforce.

I mean, there's nothing in place that can't be rolled back by another government, but it's likely Japan is finally reforming in some long overdue ways.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Personally, I don't believe China needs to dominate its neighbours with military force. When it becomes the world's largest economy, and neighbouring countries (like South Korea) become dependant on China's massive markets, I'm sure more subtle and non violent means will be used.

That's assuming China's ascent to world economic dominance is assured, and that nothing could possibly go wrong in China before then. But China has most of its economic growth tied up in some very wobbly property values, and a political system that is really dependent on the promise of economic growth eventually making things okay for everyone. If any of that falls down, well it isn't hard to see how they could resort to militarism pretty quickly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
So, I stand by my point. Japan was forced into some “pacifist” constitution by the people that just used two nuclear bomb on them. This was the direct result of them going on an all-over invasion of the rest of Asia. Them saying they need to rearm over their many territorial dispute with all their neighbors is NOT a good sign.

I think it's a bit of a stretch to assert some kind of permanence to Japanese culture, that militarism that once took over the country is somehow more likely to happen there again. Times change, Japan today is massively different to Japan in the 30s.

@Agnosto. Great post! Having lived in Korea for a few years myself, can say I share your experience (except for being turned away from a nightclub ).

Korea isn't a multi-racial and multi-cultural country, and as massively polite and good natured as most of the people are, most of the bad experiences westerners have there (the odd old person stood 1ft away staring at you, or a muttered comment) are more of a result of this than anything else.

1. Apologies. There seems to be this desire by China and S. Korea for every new Japanese government to abase themselves to everyone in the region when in fact Japan has apologized and recognized their wrongs on numerous occasions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan
It's kind of like your wife never letting you live down something you did. We let Germany get on with their lives but for some reason it's different for Japan.

Hmm.. not sure I entirely agree with you here. Germany has been apologetic, almost to the point of embarrassment, Japan not so. I experienced a fair amount of ill will amongst the older generation in Korea (I say this as someone who lived amongst Koreans, had a Korean fiancé etc.) towards the Japanese. You can't imagine Angela Merkel visiting the grave of Rommel or Donitz and paying respects. I was in Korea when the Tsunami hit Japan, and the feeling I got (from the old) was definitely one of 'they had it coming', even though at the same time there was a massive charity movement within Korea and they did help out Japan a lot. I remember news stories of Korean charity/food boats being turned away, as though the Japanese didn't need them - it tied into the kind of feeling the Koreans have about the Japanese.

I think it's a bit of a stretch to assert some kind of permanence to Japanese culture, that militarism that once took over the country is somehow more likely to happen there again. Times change, Japan today is massively different to Japan in the 30s.

Is this the place for sweeping comments?

Every country has a history of warfare and aggression, but I think some more than most. Japan certainly more than most, and they took the role of plunderers in the far east for at least a 1000yrs or so. I don't know whether it is the result of being so well defined racially and culturally, or perhaps from being on a small island without much in the way of natural resources (and with some vast, plump paddy fields a relatively short boat ride away to the west) but they certainly have a bloody history.

If you think Europe is bad (and it is), a visit to Osaka castle (with its painted visual history of Japan) is basically a thousand years of warfare and bloodshed. I would certainly contrast this with Korea, who I think have done tremendously well to survive with such large, powerful, and (in the case of Japan certainly) aggressive neighbours.

 Pacific wrote:
Hmm.. not sure I entirely agree with you here. Germany has been apologetic, almost to the point of embarrassment, Japan not so.

While I note that Japan's apologies have often done a little bit of downplaying (hearing their version, the Rape of Nanking was an isolated incident), but really, what do people expect? Japan to bend over and kiss the ass of every single person upset about things that happened nearly a century ago (really, we're getting close to 100 years here).

Every country has a history of warfare and aggression, but I think some more than most. Japan certainly more than most, and they took the role of plunderers in the far east for at least a 1000yrs or so.

What history books are people reading? As a country, Japan was isolationist for nearly its entire history save a 75 year stretch from 1870 to 1945. Seriously. Japans history of warfare is profoundly internal. They were sending tributes to the Chinese dynasties for thousands of years. Traditionally Japan supported Korea in its conflicts with China, if off handedly. Japan could even be considered a client state of China until the end of the Tang Dynasty. They were never a particularly dominant force until the 20th century.

If anyone can be called the plunderer of the far east its China, not Japan. China has invaded Korea and Veitnam more times than I've had haircuts.

 Pacific wrote:
Every country has a history of warfare and aggression, but I think some more than most. Japan certainly more than most, and they took the role of plunderers in the far east for at least a 1000yrs or so. I don't know whether it is the result of being so well defined racially and culturally, or perhaps from being on a small island without much in the way of natural resources (and with some vast, plump paddy fields a relatively short boat ride away to the west) but they certainly have a bloody history.

But the behaviour of previous generations doesn't really have anything to do with predicting the behaviour of the current generation.

I just don't see how anyone can say that because Japan once wanted to form an Asian protectorate over which they would benevolently rule, that we can look at current Japanese society and say yep, that might just be where this proposed expansion is heading.

Wait people are seriously concerned that japan secretly wants to take over asia again?

 mitch_rifle wrote:
Wait people are seriously concerned that japan secretly wants to take over asia again?

Well, I might have been using some exaggeration, but people certainly seemed to be concerned about Japan given their past.

Wow

 LordofHats wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
Hmm.. not sure I entirely agree with you here. Germany has been apologetic, almost to the point of embarrassment, Japan not so.

While I note that Japan's apologies have often done a little bit of downplaying (hearing their version, the Rape of Nanking was an isolated incident), but really, what do people expect? Japan to bend over and kiss the ass of every single person upset about things that happened nearly a century ago (really, we're getting close to 100 years here).

People expect the Japanese leadership to stop siding with rapists and murderers. You can't have it both ways - yes, it's been seventy years, so why is Abe still hellbent on carrying water for these donkey-caves? Germany, if anything, has gone too far in distancing itself from Nazi Germany, but Japan's current Prime Minister is literally saying that the victims of Imperial Japan's official rape system were asking for it.

 Pacific wrote:

Hmm.. not sure I entirely agree with you here. Germany has been apologetic, almost to the point of embarrassment, Japan not so. I experienced a fair amount of ill will amongst the older generation in Korea (I say this as someone who lived amongst Koreans, had a Korean fiancé etc.) towards the Japanese. You can't imagine Angela Merkel visiting the grave of Rommel or Donitz and paying respects. I was in Korea when the Tsunami hit Japan, and the feeling I got (from the old) was definitely one of 'they had it coming', even though at the same time there was a massive charity movement within Korea and they did help out Japan a lot. I remember news stories of Korean charity/food boats being turned away, as though the Japanese didn't need them - it tied into the kind of feeling the Koreans have about the Japanese.

I don't know that I agree with you here. There's a long list of instances where Japan has apologized for its past actions but there are those in the region who take every apology and say, "Yeah, I don't buy it." to the point where one organization contested the Japanese word used in the apology. Seriously, they said that the word obawe was not formal enough even though it's the most formal apology in the Japanese language and even says so in translation dictionaries. No, I believe this is a case of perception and culture. The Japanese government has made some questionable moves in the past (it's almost like they're a democracy and donkey-caves get elected now and again, that never happens in other countries..) and people collectively jump on anything seen as a potential slight to justify their ongoing hate.

For some interesting byplay in Wikipedia, I recommend the article discussion thread:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan


As for food donations; I couldn't find anything on a quick search but did find this on Wikipedia:

South Korea was among the first foreign emergency rescue teams consisting of 5 rescuers and 2 rescue dogs who arrived in Japan on March 12, while another team of 102 rescuers arrived 2 days later.[88] In total, private donations originating from Korea amounted to 2.97 billion Japanese Yen (37.1 million US dollars in March 2011), the 5th largest foreign donation following USA, Taiwan, Canada and Germany.[89] In addition to human aid, Korea sent boric acid to weaken nuclear reactions and power sources for electricity.[90] Many provinces have offered aid as well. Gyeonggi-do offered US$1 million, and raised additional aid.[91] The South Korean consulate staffs in Sendai were crucial in escorting a Croatian citizen, Vinko Hut Kono, safely to the Akita Airport.[92] However, some government organizations in South Korea halted their fund drives and instead donated the money to nationalist organizations for political reasons.

Interesting discussion, thanks for contributing.

 Frazzled wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:
Would someone tell me why Japan needs a military? Humor me for being stupid.

China...duh.

The Chinese are a peace loving nation who extend the hand of friendship to all. It is a long established goal of China's to help create the People's Republic of Texas, free from the influence of the great Satan in Washington and its Zionist lackeys

Indeed. The peace loving Chinese have now extended our benificense from Vietnam to the Phillipines. Just the other day we helped rescue some Vietnamese fishermen who's boats mysteriously sank in Our waters.

************************************************************
Am I the only person who sees the meeting between China and South Korea as a Big Freaking Deal and a major warning shot to China's client state?

 Frazzled wrote:
Indeed. The peace loving Chinese have now extended our benificense from Vietnam to the Phillipines. Just the other day we helped rescue some Vietnamese fishermen who's boats mysteriously sank in Our waters.

************************************************************
Am I the only person who sees the meeting between China and South Korea as a Big Freaking Deal and a major warning shot to China's client state?

It's not really a big deal, Frazz. Money talks, as you know, and the South Koreans are far more valuable to China than the north.

On the subject of economics, a question for everybody: Am I the only person thinking that Japan's re-armament has more to do with stimulating its economy (which has been flatlining since the 1990s) rather than standing up to China? Or am I being to cynical?

 Fafnir wrote:



...now all they need is an army of unstable 15-year-old children...

It's pronounced Gun Dum? Well poop. I always assumed it was Gun Dam.

I was going to say Japan re-militarising increases the chances we will see war mechas in our lifetimes, but seems you beat me to it.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


On the subject of economics, a question for everybody: Am I the only person thinking that Japan's re-armament has more to do with stimulating its economy (which has been flatlining since the 1990s) rather than standing up to China? Or am I being to cynical?

That's a big part of it I believe. I read an article yesterday about Japan setting up its first arms sale...

Edit: found one article...funny picture as well..http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2014/06/28/national/politics-diplomacy/tooling-war-can-japan-benefit-lifting-arms-export-ban/#.U7qoZIUo70w

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


On the subject of economics, a question for everybody: Am I the only person thinking that Japan's re-armament has more to do with stimulating its economy (which has been flatlining since the 1990s) rather than standing up to China? Or am I being to cynical?

I don't see why that couldn't be part of the reason they are doing it. Although, it won't do much for the economy if they buy foreign weapons. They will have to build their tanks and jets at home, rather than buy our cast-off junk (F-104 Starfighters, anyone?) and hand me downs. I know they have at least one fighter design and one tank design of their own, but beyond that, I don't know what home-grown designs their SDF is using.

Of course, designing their own military weapons and equipment is the perfect excuse for them to get started on that real-life giant anime robot I've always wanted.

squidhills wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


On the subject of economics, a question for everybody: Am I the only person thinking that Japan's re-armament has more to do with stimulating its economy (which has been flatlining since the 1990s) rather than standing up to China? Or am I being to cynical?

I don't see why that couldn't be part of the reason they are doing it. Although, it won't do much for the economy if they buy foreign weapons. They will have to build their tanks and jets at home, rather than buy our cast-off junk (F-104 Starfighters, anyone?) and hand me downs. I know they have at least one fighter design and one tank design of their own, but beyond that, I don't know what home-grown designs their SDF is using.

Of course, designing their own military weapons and equipment is the perfect excuse for them to get started on that real-life giant anime robot I've always wanted.

They already build their equipment at home. Even their F-15's.

Well, I know I where they can "buy" three US Aircraft carriers for penny on the dollar

I think part of it is that WW2 is still very fresh and will be fresh in the minds of many nations for a while, especially as the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) like to use Japan as a whipping boy when they need to divert attention from themselves. I think if Japanese politicians would stop going to the Warshines or at least move the bodies of the war criminals out of them it would give the CCP and others less ammunition to use on them. (And yes I know they have a right to honor their war dead as much as anyone else.) Same goes with getting the right wing to stop talking about comfort women and that they want to rescind on the apology that the government gave in 1993.

In Asia Japan is the easy target with decent reasons thanks to its actions in WW2. Even so it will be interesting to see if the younger generations will carry on the hate of Japan that thier grandparents and sometimes parents have.

I think a certain amount of good can come from Japan from rearming, though it could start a cycle of escalation with China. So caution needs to be had. In the end I think no matter what Japan does it is going to get criticized and it needs to do what it feels are in its best national interests. If Japan rearms we could see more Asian cooperation between Japan, ASEAN, and India in response to China.

 4oursword wrote:

Spoiler:

 Fafnir wrote:



...now all they need is an army of unstable 15-year-old children...

It's pronounced Gun Dum? Well poop. I always assumed it was Gun Dam.

I was going to say Japan re-militarising increases the chances we will see war mechas in our lifetimes, but seems you beat me to it.

Whaaat? I refuse to accept this!

 guardpiper wrote:
I think part of it is that WW2 is still very fresh and will be fresh in the minds of many nations for a while, especially as the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) like to use Japan as a whipping boy when they need to divert attention from themselves. I think if Japanese politicians would stop going to the Warshines or at least move the bodies of the war criminals out of them it would give the CCP and others less ammunition to use on them. (And yes I know they have a right to honor their war dead as much as anyone else.) Same goes with getting the right wing to stop talking about comfort women and that they want to rescind on the apology that the government gave in 1993.

In Asia Japan is the easy target with decent reasons thanks to its actions in WW2. Even so it will be interesting to see if the younger generations will carry on the hate of Japan that thier grandparents and sometimes parents have.

I think a certain amount of good can come from Japan from rearming, though it could start a cycle of escalation with China. So caution needs to be had. In the end I think no matter what Japan does it is going to get criticized and it needs to do what it feels are in its best national interests. If Japan rearms we could see more Asian cooperation between Japan, ASEAN, and India in response to China.

The whole Yasukuni thing would be a valid point if it weren't for the fact that there are nearly half a million names on the rolls there and only a thousand or so are "war criminals" and the shrine's been around since the Meiji Era... It's an excuse to throw recriminations at Japan like any other.

Having lived in Korea, I can tell you that during the time that I lived there the younger generation was indoctrinated to hate Japan by teachers; it's a borderline state religion. I'm not saying there isn't good reason for ill feelings, the Japanese occupation nearly destroyed their entire culture, I'm just saying that wounds only heal if you let them and when people have a personal or political agenda... I can tell you that the prevailing attitude in Korea while I was there was one of "Never Forgive, Never Forget."

The feeling that I got from living in Japan is one of goodwill towards other nations in Asia. Japan has moved on. They have contributed to the overall wealth and success of other Asian countries and groups (and sometimes governments) continue to spit in their faces. It's funny that at the same time Japanese housewives were trying to learn Korean because of the popularity of Korean TV shows in Japan, the Korean government banned Japanese music and culture from the country (this was lifted while I lived in Korea).

The feeling that I got from living in Japan is one of goodwill towards other nations in Asia. Japan has moved on.

Of course it is. They lost big time and were occupied as a result.

If I were Korea or China I wouldn't be forgetting any time soon. Nor the Phillipines, Vietnam, etc. etc. Oh and us too.

People will forgive once they forget, and they will forget when everyone who remembers has died.