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 Frazzled wrote:

The feeling that I got from living in Japan is one of goodwill towards other nations in Asia. Japan has moved on.

Of course it is. They lost big time and were occupied as a result.

If I were Korea or China I wouldn't be forgetting any time soon. Nor the Phillipines, Vietnam, etc. etc. Oh and us too.

People will forgive once they forget, and they will forget when everyone who remembers has died.

It's a bit more than that, a cultural thing. Most Koreans hold grudges like most people hold their wallets while walking through Grand Central Station. I don't know Chinese culture as well as Korean culture so I can't speak to them but the Korean concept of "han" won't allow them to forgive or forget, yes, they actually have a word for the "us against the world" feeling that sometimes permeates their society. It's a part of their cultural identity so much so that it's a big part of Pansori (Korean Shamanism) as much as "wa" (tranquility or peace) is with Japanese culture.

The great thing about being winners is that we don't have to apologize for killing several hundred thousand civilians in fuel-air and atomic bombings; how odd that the Japanese haven't demanded justice or an apology for the pointless killing of all of those women, children and non-combatants; technically they have just as much "right" to do so as the other countries have of them.

The great thing about being winners is that we don't have to apologize for killing several hundred thousand civilians in fuel-air and atomic bombings; how odd that the Japanese haven't demanded justice or an apology for the pointless killing of all of those women, children and non-combatants; technically they have just as much "right" to do so as the other countries have of them.

You seem to forget who invaded/attacked who.

 Frazzled wrote:

The great thing about being winners is that we don't have to apologize for killing several hundred thousand civilians in fuel-air and atomic bombings; how odd that the Japanese haven't demanded justice or an apology for the pointless killing of all of those women, children and non-combatants; technically they have just as much "right" to do so as the other countries have of them.

You seem to forget who invaded/attacked who.

And that totally justifies the deaths of countless innocents...

 agnosto wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

The great thing about being winners is that we don't have to apologize for killing several hundred thousand civilians in fuel-air and atomic bombings; how odd that the Japanese haven't demanded justice or an apology for the pointless killing of all of those women, children and non-combatants; technically they have just as much "right" to do so as the other countries have of them.

You seem to forget who invaded/attacked who.

And that totally justifies the deaths of countless innocents...

In order to stop said Japanese from killing millions, yes, yes it does actually.

These attacks initially targeted industrial facilities, but from March 1945 were generally directed against urban areas as much of the manufacturing process was carried out in small workshops and private homes.

 agnosto wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

The feeling that I got from living in Japan is one of goodwill towards other nations in Asia. Japan has moved on.

Of course it is. They lost big time and were occupied as a result.

If I were Korea or China I wouldn't be forgetting any time soon. Nor the Phillipines, Vietnam, etc. etc. Oh and us too.

People will forgive once they forget, and they will forget when everyone who remembers has died.

It's a bit more than that, a cultural thing. Most Koreans hold grudges like most people hold their wallets while walking through Grand Central Station. I don't know Chinese culture as well as Korean culture so I can't speak to them but the Korean concept of "han" won't allow them to forgive or forget, yes, they actually have a word for the "us against the world" feeling that sometimes permeates their society. It's a part of their cultural identity so much so that it's a big part of Pansori (Korean Shamanism) as much as "wa" (tranquility or peace) is with Japanese culture.

The great thing about being winners is that we don't have to apologize for killing several hundred thousand civilians in fuel-air and atomic bombings; how odd that the Japanese haven't demanded justice or an apology for the pointless killing of all of those women, children and non-combatants; technically they have just as much "right" to do so as the other countries have of them.

When I was in China, there is still a good amount of hate of the Japanese, like I said, Japan is still one of the their favorite whipping boys when they need to distract the people from their own screw ups. I see you point about the Shrine, I am not that familiar with it other than then the CCP yells when ever an Japanese official gets in 20 feet of it. I think for the Chinese the embarrassment factor of being beaten so badly by a former vassal state is what stings culturally, in addition the atrocities that where done to the civilian population by the Japanese military. I am no expert on Chinese cutlure nor do I claim to be, but after living there for a semester (6 months) and academic research that is my feeling of what it is.

Speaking to nationals from Laos, Vietnam, Myanmar, India, and Mongolia, there is not much hate for the Japanese (especially with the Indians, Gurkhas not with standing) but right now everyone is more worried about China in the now than what happened in the past with Japan, once again that is my read with my experiences with the nationals of those nations and my own reseach and reading of the news.

I think that having suspicions against an island nation purely because it has a long history of piracy, pillaging, and invading neighbouring countries is entirely unreasonable. Britain would never start a world wa...wait, we're talking about Japan?


*coughs*

Damn those Japanese and their rampant militarist history! They'll destroy us all if we let them amend their constitution!

*shakes fist*

 Ketara wrote:
I think that having suspicions against an island nation purely because it has a long history of piracy, pillaging, and invading neighbouring countries is entirely unreasonable. Britain would never start a world wa...wait, we're talking about Japan?


*coughs*

Damn those Japanese and their rampant militarist history! They'll destroy us all if we let them amend their constitution!

*shakes fist*

They planned for the future by indoctrinating us with Mecha

 agnosto wrote:

The whole Yasukuni thing would be a valid point if it weren't for the fact that there are nearly half a million names on the rolls there and only a thousand or so are "war criminals" and the shrine's been around since the Meiji Era... It's an excuse to throw recriminations at Japan like any other.

Even the name of a single war criminal on those lists is one name too many that should never have been there. I don't get why Japan hasn't done anything about it yet. Surely if they have so much goodwill towards their neigbours, it would be a trivial matter to remove or strike out those few names?
Imagine the outrage in Europe if Germany would have had such a shrine that included the names of Nazi war criminals.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Even the name of a single war criminal on those lists is one name too many that should never have been there. I don't get why Japan hasn't done anything about it yet. Surely if they have so much goodwill towards their neigbours, it would be a trivial matter to remove or strike out those few names?
Imagine the outrage in Europe if Germany would have had such a shrine that included the names of Nazi war criminals.

What can I say, it's a cultural thing to some extent and also a historical view of things. The purpose of the shrine is to recognize those who died but supported Japan. It's a form of showing respect and "tatemai" for the dead. Trying to view it through a non-Japanese lens just doesn't work as well. The people listed contributed to the furtherment of Japan, even the non-Japanese names listes, it's more a recognition of their dedication to Japan than what they actually did. That's my understanding of it after talking to my wife and other Japanese people.

Interesting discussion.

 Seaward wrote:
It'd be nice if both Japan and Germany got back in the saddle.

Germany will eventually follow suit, though admittedly they have far less reason to as they have (in a round about way) accomplished their cultural nationalistic and imperialistic ideals via peaceful social and economic means, and for the most part have seemingly forgotten or moved beyond their territorial ambitions (while I've met a few who still uphold the view that "Danzig ist Deutsch" and that Russia has no right to continue to maintain Kaliningrad as its own, they are definitely a very small minority). Still though, both Germany and Japan have long-standing militarist cultural traditions and histories, and even though the US did a good job of suppressing it (ESPECIALLY in Germany) I think its only a matter of time before that bubbles back to the surface.

Note, this doesn't mean a return to that 'evil' warlike expansionist mentality by any means, that is a separate thing in and of itself. Regardless though, I dont know if a resurgent Germany OR Japan is necessarily a good thing... especially Japan, as others have pointed out, on a national/cultural level there is just something 'off' going on over there societally speaking.

Regardless of this though, we really have no right to comment or judge either country if they want to arm/re-arm themselves, nor do we really have a right to enforce continued disarmament on either of them.

Japan and Korea are like the US and Britain. They might glare at each other angrily over the water from time to time, but today they have many more reasons to be friends than enemies.

This comment shows a huge lack of understanding over Japanese/South Korea relations. Massive hint: Their relationship is in no way, shape, or form like the US and Britain, and they are only 'friendly' with one another because they will need to rely on one another for collective security if sith hits the fan. I think for the most part the ill will lies more on the side of Korea than it does Japan, but y'know that kinda makes sense.

I think it's a bit of a stretch to assert some kind of permanence to Japanese culture, that militarism that once took over the country is somehow more likely to happen there again. Times change, Japan today is massively different to Japan in the 30s.

Militarism (perhaps thats the wrong word... martial traditions perhaps?) is something that is very deeply rooted in Japanese culture and not something that was 'beat out' of them after the war. While Bushido isn't as prominent in Japanese culture as it once was, many of the cultural traditions that sprung from it still hold prominence in mainstream Japanese culture. (Semi)Ritualized suicide, for example, is still far too common in Japan as a sort of penance for violating ones honor, more than a few politicians, executives, etc. and far too many students have taken their own lives as the result of failures (whether real or perceived) which reflected negatively on themselves or their families. Thats just one example, but trust me the 'foundation' of it all is still very much there.

What history books are people reading? As a country, Japan was isolationist for nearly its entire history save a 75 year stretch from 1870 to 1945. Seriously. Japans history of warfare is profoundly internal. They were sending tributes to the Chinese dynasties for thousands of years. Traditionally Japan supported Korea in its conflicts with China, if off handedly. Japan could even be considered a client state of China until the end of the Tang Dynasty. They were never a particularly dominant force until the 20th century.

What history book are *you* reading. While you're correct that 'official' military history was very much internally focused, that kind of ignores the centuries of piracy and raiding carried out by fringe elements of Japanese society (amongst others). You may think of this as a relatively minor threat, but banditry and piracy in Eastern cultures was a very different threat than it was here in the West. We think of pirates, etc. as isolated small groups, etc. In Asia, bandits/pirates/raiders formed entire armies that challenged military/government authority directly. The Chinese fought *battles* against Japanese pirates with hundreds of ships and tens of thousands of men on each side. I mean, I suppose thats technically kind of unfair since a majority of the wokou/other groups were actually *not* Japanese, but historical revisionism over the past few centuries has changed that to make the Japanese the 'enemy'.

I don't see why that couldn't be part of the reason they are doing it. Although, it won't do much for the economy if they buy foreign weapons. They will have to build their tanks and jets at home, rather than buy our cast-off junk (F-104 Starfighters, anyone?) and hand me downs. I know they have at least one fighter design and one tank design of their own, but beyond that, I don't know what home-grown designs their SDF is using.

Of course, designing their own military weapons and equipment is the perfect excuse for them to get started on that real-life giant anime robot I've always wanted.

Most of Japan's world war 2 era/pre-war defense industry has survived relatively intact (Mitsubishi, Toyota, Kawasaki, IHI, Subaru, etc. all built or descended from companies that built military hardware for Japan) and maintains a lot of the industrial capacity to design, develop, and produce military hardware domestically. We think of most of these companies as being suppliers of civilian hardware, but in reality most of them still crank out gear for the JSDF. IHI & Mitsubishi produce Kongo Class Destroyers (variants of the Arleigh Burke) & Mitsubishi produces variants of the F-15/16 for example. They might not necessarily be 'up to par' with the American defense industry (at least in terms of technological advancement/R&D, since most of their equipment is derived from American gear), but they are easily capable of matching most (if not all) other NATO members domestic defense industries, and are probably a near competitor to Russias and still a good bit ahead of Chinas.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Their relationship is in no way, shape, or form like the US and Britain, and they are only 'friendly' with one another because they will need to rely on one another for collective security if sith hits the fan.

And so it begins.

It's a shame that you didn't photoshop a Chinese flag in the background.

Are you trying to say that the US/UK doesn't have a 'real' friendship?

But we love you guys... :C

 Jihadin wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
I think that having suspicions against an island nation purely because it has a long history of piracy, pillaging, and invading neighbouring countries is entirely unreasonable. Britain would never start a world wa...wait, we're talking about Japan?


*coughs*

Damn those Japanese and their rampant militarist history! They'll destroy us all if we let them amend their constitution!

*shakes fist*

They planned for the future by indoctrinating us with Mecha

and indoctrinating us with whatever this is

chaos0xomega wrote:
Are you trying to say that the US/UK doesn't have a 'real' friendship?

But we love you guys... :C

We still haven't forgiven you for wasting all that tea.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Are you trying to say that the US/UK doesn't have a 'real' friendship?

But we love you guys... :C

I think our friendship was originally based on you lending us money, and us paying it back, plus a bitchin' amount of interest. Or something like that.

Bullockist, that picture made me angry just by how dumb it is.

Seems in the future Japan going to improve on Chinese Light Machine Guns. They more likely have Taiwan make the front sites.

LordofHats wrote:

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

And also Russia over the Kuril Islands

They're still fighting over that? And here I thought Argentina was the only country with attachment issues

Because of the ongoing dispute over these islands, Russia and Japan never formally declared the end of hostilities, which has been going since they declared war on each other during WWII.

While others have mentioned stuff about Japanese militarism, and whether it will see a resurgence or not, I doubt the Japanese would give in to something so extreme. The last time that happened, the US threw two nukes at their cities. And by that time, their entire economy was in shambles, their military only a fraction of what they had at the start of 1937, and if the bombs didn't work, they would have to defend their country against an all-out invasion.

Then again, if it wasn't for the bombs, Japan would have fought to the last man, anyways, such was their determination not to surrender.

Either way, the Japanese people would be hard-pressed to go full-blown militaristic again, considering what happened 70 years ago. Maybe we might see some sword-waving and bombastic statements in the near future, but nowhere near what was said or done back then.

The whole "de-militarized" thing was never really enforced in Japan, because of the Cold War. Japan still has one of the larger and more powerful militarys to this day, and that's with the gloves still on. Germany seems to have taken the "no armies, no war" thing a lot more seriously, apparently even down to a cultural level.

I think it has something to do with the manner of the defeat and how the clean up was handled. Germany fought long and hard and in the end was completely vanquished, right down to soviet soldiers hoisting the flag over the reichstag. That has a profound impact on a people. Japan on the other hand was not invaded in the traditional sense, and never suffered the final Armageddon that Germany did. Many of the senior echelons of command still wanted to fight and the emperor had to actually go on radio and tell everyone that they had lost. In the occupation the US pretty quickly about faced on the military issue after the korean war and many former members of the militarist regime were placed into position of power. In germany, not only were the Nazis completely removed and the people made to face what they had done but three out of the four occupying countries had an interest in keeping the germans down.

 Soladrin wrote:
Bullockist, that picture made me angry just by how dumb it is.

Isn't it awesome, it's a girl who's a plane carrying a machine gun! So much wow.
I saw it 2 days ago on dakka, it's amazing what you see here

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
On the subject of economics, a question for everybody: Am I the only person thinking that Japan's re-armament has more to do with stimulating its economy (which has been flatlining since the 1990s) rather than standing up to China? Or am I being to cynical?

You're not being cynical. Direct stimulus of the economy is a stated goal of Abenomics*, including expanded military spending. I thinks it's a case of looking to enjoy both the economic benefit, and also to be able to place a check on China without needing as much US support.




*This is the new economic approach championed by Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe. It's kind of an interesting mix of Keynes style stimulus alongside structural reform ala Thatcher & Reagan. It seems to me to be a best of both worlds approach, and basically puts Abe head and shoulders above any other leader in the world for his economic policies. Whether it's enough to counter the Japanese demographic issues will be seen in time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 agnosto wrote:
It's a bit more than that, a cultural thing. Most Koreans hold grudges like most people hold their wallets while walking through Grand Central Station. I don't know Chinese culture as well as Korean culture so I can't speak to them but the Korean concept of "han" won't allow them to forgive or forget, yes, they actually have a word for the "us against the world" feeling that sometimes permeates their society. It's a part of their cultural identity so much so that it's a big part of Pansori (Korean Shamanism) as much as "wa" (tranquility or peace) is with Japanese culture.

Yeah, it's the one thing that I fuond really tiresome among the Koreans I've known. Everything was seen in terms of how poor and unfortunate Korea was, and how much they personally suffered.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 agnosto wrote:
And that totally justifies the deaths of countless innocents...

If you want to win a major war, you will likely have to do some nasty gak. That doesn't mean that any and all nasty gak is okay, but it does mean that some nasty gak is fine when it helps to end the war sooner.

Despite having basically zero chance of winning another major engagement, let alone holding the American advance and forcing a cease-fire, the Japanese kept fighting. And as they did so, hundreds of thousands more died in China and other occupied territories.

The destruction of Japanese cities by fire attacks and atomic weapons was certainly some nasty gak, but it was necessary to end the war. The only alternative was invasion, and that was believed to have killed even more. So what would you have done?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Germany will eventually follow suit, though admittedly they have far less reason to as they have (in a round about way) accomplished their cultural nationalistic and imperialistic ideals via peaceful social and economic means, and for the most part have seemingly forgotten or moved beyond their territorial ambitions

The Luftwaffe was used in overseas operations a decade ago (I think it was the Balkans...). It caused some interested commentary much like this is, but nothing more. Anyhow, the point is that your comment that Germany will catch is mistaken, it is Japan who is finally catching up to Germany.

Also, Japan achieved their nationalistic ideas through economic progress 30 years ago. That Japan later fell in to their lost decade means the period from 1950 to 1990 is often forgotten about, but it remains the same.

Regardless of this though, we really have no right to comment or judge either country if they want to arm/re-arm themselves, nor do we really have a right to enforce continued disarmament on either of them.

It isn't that we don't have the right, in both cases we are talking about liberal democracies that are a positive economic force in the world. It is good that they are willing to play their part in ensuring global stability.

Militarism (perhaps thats the wrong word... martial traditions perhaps?) is something that is very deeply rooted in Japanese culture and not something that was 'beat out' of them after the war. While Bushido isn't as prominent in Japanese culture as it once was, many of the cultural traditions that sprung from it still hold prominence in mainstream Japanese culture. (Semi)Ritualized suicide, for example, is still far too common in Japan as a sort of penance for violating ones honor, more than a few politicians, executives, etc. and far too many students have taken their own lives as the result of failures (whether real or perceived) which reflected negatively on themselves or their families. Thats just one example, but trust me the 'foundation' of it all is still very much there.

I see far more celebration of the military in the US. It doesn't bother me though because, well, stereotyping whole political and democratic institutions on the basis of a couple of national quirks just isn't very useful.

Sebster, the US is different though, in the sense that our 'militarism' (again, not sure thats the appropriate word) basically revolves around a general pride in the military and our military history (whether its really warranted or not is another question). We don't have a 'bushido' code, we don't have a martial tradition that permeates the country at a deeper societal level. There is, in general, a deep divide between the military and civilian populations in this country, to the point that some consider the growing divide to be the basis for the foundation of a caste system within American society. In fact, the general civilian attitude towards the military is seemingly one of "us and them". The "Support Our Troops" movement has an implication that the "troops" are a separate entity from the American populace, otherwise it would be a "Support Our War Effort" campaign, implying that the civilian sector is a stakeholder in the outcome as well as the troops.

I can't really comment too much on Germany in that regards, but in Japan at least, while the military may not be 'celebrated' like it is in the US, many of the cultural traditions which still hold some relevant in Japanese society stem from Japanese martial tradition and militarism of yesteryear. Not *ALL* of them or even a majority of them mind you, but many of them.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Sebster, the US is different though, in the sense that our 'militarism' (again, not sure thats the appropriate word) basically revolves around a general pride in the military and our military history (whether its really warranted or not is another question). We don't have a 'bushido' code, we don't have a martial tradition that permeates the country at a deeper societal level. There is, in general, a deep divide between the military and civilian populations in this country, to the point that some consider the growing divide to be the basis for the foundation of a caste system within American society. In fact, the general civilian attitude towards the military is seemingly one of "us and them". The "Support Our Troops" movement has an implication that the "troops" are a separate entity from the American populace, otherwise it would be a "Support Our War Effort" campaign, implying that the civilian sector is a stakeholder in the outcome as well as the troops.

I can't really comment too much on Germany in that regards, but in Japan at least, while the military may not be 'celebrated' like it is in the US, many of the cultural traditions which still hold some relevant in Japanese society stem from Japanese martial tradition and militarism of yesteryear. Not *ALL* of them or even a majority of them mind you, but many of them.

I'm sorry, but what? By your definition all the kids who take Judo or Karate in the US are paying homage to Japan's military past...

Japan doesn't have a support our troops mentality; in fact the majority of Japanese citizens opposed the lifting of the ban or any militarism in Japan.
http://ajw.asahi.com/article/behind_news/politics/AJ201404070067

People need to realize that this has nothing to do with a rising wave of militarism in Japan but is all about economics and national self-interest in containing China who thinks the entire Pacific theater belongs to them. Japan is building stronger military ties with Australia and other regional powers and setting themselves up as an arms exporter (money).
http://ajw.asahi.com/article/behind_news/politics/AJ201407090062

US based martial arts are a bit of a joke IMO, heavily watered down money making schemes, but I get the point you're trying to make, but still not what I was referring to.

Shinto has some of its roots in ancient Japanese martial traditions for example (and was believed by the Allies, perhaps erroneously, to have been an element of Japanese ultra-nationalism during WW2), and there is a movement in Japan to restore it as the state religion.

The Japanese educational system is heavily regimented and based on a military structure, from the uniforms the students wear to the respect that teachers command from their students. Japanese education also features 'moral education' amongst other things, which has been described as indoctrination and/or nationalistic brainwashing by many in the west.

And then there is Bo-Taoshi...

etc. etc. etc.

chaos0xomega wrote:


The Japanese educational system is heavily regimented and based on a military structure, from the uniforms the students wear

I wore a uniform at school.

to the respect that teachers command from their students.

I'm not sure that showing respect to your teacher is an inherently militaristic trait.

Japanese education also features 'moral education' amongst other things, which has been described as indoctrination and/or nationalistic brainwashing by many in the west.

We had PSE at school, which was something similar. It was there to teach us how awesome the EU was, not to do drugs, and not to sleep around. Sounds similar.

And then there is Bo-Taoshi...

As opposed to Tug of War?

I'm not saying I necessarily disagree with your key point chaos, but I view absolutely none of the above as supporting it in any way, shape or form. You only look at those things and go, 'Aha! A cultural predilection for warfare!' if you're looking for it already. I could do exactly the same thing with just about any school in any Western culture.

 Ketara wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:


The Japanese educational system is heavily regimented and based on a military structure, from the uniforms the students wear

I wore a uniform at school.

Was your uniform specifically modeled after French military uniforms in use during Meiji-era Japan (or in the event you are female, western style Naval uniforms)?

I'm not sure that showing respect to your teacher is an inherently militaristic trait.

Again, it's a different sort of respect in Japan than it is in the West (well, at least in the US), the relationship is more of that of a military officer/superior and a subordinate than it is a western style teacher/student relationship.

We had PSE at school, which was something similar. It was there to teach us how awesome the EU was, not to do drugs, and not to sleep around. Sounds similar.

No idea what PSE is, but if its anything like 'Health' and 'Civics' in America, then Japanese moral education is not quite the same, especially as of recent reforms, it heavily emphasizes civic duty and how to be a productive member of Japanese society, and increasingly preaches a sort of borderline nationalism.

As opposed to Tug of War?

Oddly enough I've never played it... so I don't quite see what your point is here...? I mean, I've played dodgeball, which I guess would be a better comparison... but I didn't even do that until I reached college and was an ROTC cadet, in which case, I have to say "well duh, I was training to be a military officer" (and as an aside, that was completely voluntary on my part and not something that is a government mandated element of our educational system).

I'm not saying I necessarily disagree with your key point chaos, but I view absolutely none of the above as supporting it in any way, shape or form. You only look at those things and go, 'Aha! A cultural predilection for warfare!' if you're looking for it already. I could do exactly the same thing with just about any school in any Western culture.

I disagree. Again, I understand the point you're trying to make, but Japanese society tends to be more regimented and uniform than most western cultures are. The old proverb ' The nail that sticks out gets hammered down' is a Japanese proverb, whereas 'The squeaky wheel gets the grease' is a western one. Contrast the implications of each of those proverbs and you can draw some pretty good conclusions about the differences in Japanese and Western society.

*This is the new economic approach championed by Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe. It's kind of an interesting mix of Keynes style stimulus alongside structural reform ala Thatcher & Reagan. It seems to me to be a best of both worlds approach, and basically puts Abe head and shoulders above any other leader in the world for his economic policies. Whether it's enough to counter the Japanese demographic issues will be seen in time.

We're going off topic here, sebster, but reheated economic policies from the 1980s are not going to stimulate Japan's economy. You probably know as well as I do that Japan has a declining population and a less than friendly approach to immigration. All the defence spending in the world won't change this.

Anyway, back OT.

One of the most interesting aspects of the whole Japan Vs China debate (I nicked this from a newspaper ) is the historical revisionism that is going on in China.

Nobody disputes Japan is guilty as hell for its atrocities in the 1930s, but the role of the Communists is coming under the spotlight.

As most dakka members probably know, the nationalists were ruling China in the 1930s, and it is them who bore the brunt against China. This has led to many people questioning the official history (that paints the Communists in a better light) and there seems to be more of an appreciation of Chiang Kai Shek and the Kuomintang.

Chiang Kai-shek was kind of a bastard, so I'm not really sure he warrants 'appreciation'.

BTW, not really relevant but was reminded of this by his mention, in my Senior year of High School I was the only person who had any idea who Chiang Kai-shek and the Kuomintang were. In fact, according to the teacher, I was the first student she had had in 20+ years who had any idea who they were lol. Not sure if that is a positive reflection on me or a negative reflection of Americans.