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Hello all,

I've been thinking of buying a Warhammer 40,000 army to paint, and then get into the new rules. My problem is that I haven't played 40K since 4th edition, so I'm VERY out of the loop! In addition, I'm out of touch with how the lore has been changed.

I've been thinking of maybe buying a Tau box set (?) and I'd like to hear people's opinions on how they play now, and perhaps some army building suggestions if you have any? Any modeling advice, etc., is appreciated too! Colour schemes, etc! I'm all ears.

The lore hasn't changed THAT much. At least, if we're talking about older armies. The fluff for guard hasnt' really changed since 4th edition, nor has marines, nor orks. Armies that have gotten significant redos, though, like Necron and Grey Knights, on the other hand, are different than they used to be. Well, and Mat Ward retconning things, but that's another matter.

Tau play almost exclusively as a gunline, where you just sort of put your models down and more or less ignore movement and close combat (and a bunch of other stuff), and roll dice to see which models your opponent puts back in his army case. It is technically possible to play tau other ways, but it's probably going to be out of the reach of someone without very much experience. We had a topic on trying to fix this problem which I'll direct you to here. The title of the thread alone should be an indication of some of the problems playing tau.

For painting and modelling, look no further than this guy. He has a blog as well.

Wait another 2 years for the next edition. This ruleset is a complete soul-sucking mess in my and many others opinion.

As to collecting and painting with an eye towards the possibilty of playing ??????

Then go IG. They seem to be the army that weathers the edition changes the best.

As to fluff?

Your beloved 4th ed lore has been completely thrown out with no regard to the current collectors feeling. It was done in a desperate effort to sell enough models to keep the shareholders
happy.

Honestly, you shouldn't think of collecting armies anymore. That part of the fluff doesn't matter anymore. Instead, just collect and play whatever you want.

I'll stop here. There are enough threads that cover the problems of 7th ed.

I'm in the Ailaros camp, not the Avatar camp.

7th is one of the best versions of 40k since 2nd, and aside from the model cost, an excellent time to be getting back into the game.

Despite the gnashing and railing, the fluff hasn't changed that much - Necrons got a face lift in that the leaders actually woke up now, so we know what the heck's going on behind those grinning skull masks, but other than that everyone is still plugging away. Inquisition got its own minidex rather than being shoe-horned into the Sisters at last.

Oh, the Guard got a rename and the Knights were brought forward into the front line play.

Tau are an interesting bunch. They polarise into either Jump-shoot-jump battlesuits or gunline infantry though.

There are other options, but they're more difficult to learn than those basic ideas. If you field more than one giant robot (riptide), you'll get panned in your local store though. ^^; Their codex fliers are pretty awful, although also quite pretty, while their forge world fliers remain very nice.

As far as colour schemes go, I'm rather partial to black undersuits and bone armour plates.

I'm in the Avatar camp.

Collect the models you like that you feel are worth the mulah$$, but avoid 7th like you would avoid the plague. 7th is a horrically bad game that has divided the playing community.

While anecdotal my experience has been that I've seen less and less players in Houston, Dallas, Colorado Springs, Pittsburg and Annapolis in 6th and now 7th editions.

I've come to feel that playing 6th &7th editions just leads to customer disappointment. If you like the background and models then collect & paint the models and read your Black Library novels. Don't ruin what you enjoy with a terrible game of everything is legal/make up your own rules.

You might think I'm be indulging in hyperbole here but seriously, the book suggests not constraining your gameplay with tje rules or points totals. That we should make up our own rules to fit our special fantasy battles and lists.

Hopefully, GW's stock will continue to slide after the disappointments of 7th ed and the new orks. If it drops back down to and stays at the mid to low 500's this year and in the current market....such should either force a leadership change or an outright sale of the company.

One can hope.

Later,
ff

Thanks for the responses guys. I might put off looking at the gaming aspect of the hobby for a little while, maybe I'll think of some other projects to tide me over until everything is resolved!

donkusgaming wrote:maybe I'll think of some other projects to tide me over until everything is resolved!

Well, it depends on what you mean by "resolved". If that means there are no more GW conspiracy theorists, or people who think the game is complete garbage because there's a few things they disagree with, or there's no longer a sucking vortex of self-pity on the internet, then I'm afraid you might be waiting for some time. As in, forever.

If, on the other hand, what you want to do is play 40k with those miniatures you like to paint, then just do that.

I'd highly suggest looking at other games before diving into 40k. They'll be cheaper (per finished army) and when you do play, you might like the style of games better.

I think I'd recommend almost anything before 40k.

 Ailaros wrote:

donkusgaming wrote:maybe I'll think of some other projects to tide me over until everything is resolved!

Well, it depends on what you mean by "resolved". If that means there are no more GW conspiracy theorists, or people who think the game is complete garbage because there's a few things they disagree with, or there's no longer a sucking vortex of self-pity on the internet, then I'm afraid you might be waiting for some time. As in, forever.

If, on the other hand, what you want to do is play 40k with those miniatures you like to paint, then just do that.

We'll said.

OP, remember the internet and General lends a more powerful voice to those wishing to voice negative opinions. And negative impressions a re more powerful in relation. The game is far from perfect, and a few small things would greatly improve it, but overall it's still has all the potential of the game that drew you in the first time.


Overall, 7th Edition is better than 6th, and is my favorite edition yet and I've played most of them. I'm not a fan of Unbound armies or Super a Heavies and Gargantuans, but I don't have to play against them if I don't want, and most tournaments will either not allow or severely limit the worst offenders. For casual games, just come up with mutually agreed expectations for the game and you will thoroughly enjoy yourself. If you and your opponent are playing the same game, you'll have a blast. The game is still a blast, and IMO way better than 4th Ed, which was my least favorite that I played out of 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th.

Yes, imbalances exist, but if you talk to your opponents and play the same game you'll be just fine. That has always been the case, now, there are just less upper limits for abuse to players need to agree to play the same game ie army construction, level of competitiveness, use of SHs and GCs, etc.

Tau are solid right now, and their Codex is way more fun and flexible than their last one. Everything from FishOFury, to Gunline, to Battlesuits can be played from casual to competitive. I love Farsight Enclaves and run Suits and drones. So much potential.

My opinion (as someone in the same boat as the OP):

PROS
* Still ubiquitous and fairly popular (YMMV in your meta), still rather well known and it's likely people play
* Good models
* Great lore
* Can be fun if you play with a like-minded group who want to have a good time and not necessarily win.

CONS
* Prices are terrible for value, and continually get worse; a $50 Codex generally requires a $50 supplement to restore things that were removed and there's dataslates that do the same
* Random charts everywhere in the name of "narrative" gaming, when all they really do is add needless complexity. Things like the Maelstrom Missions/Objective Cards can range from interesting to screwing you over because you picked a bad hand
* Zero care to balance of any kind, even within armies. Pick a wrong unit and you're more likely to lose a game based just on that fact; you are often punished for picking a unit that you like the looks/fluff for over a unit that plays better on the table.
* Requires a lot of discussion with your opponent prior to a game; fine if you're in an established group, not that fine if you play at a FLGS on "40k Night"
* Rules are often poorly worded and left up to interpretation; not always a big deal (you can usually figure out what the intent is) but can be exploited and/or cause rules disputes if someone disagrees.
* GW's business practices overall reflect badly on the company.

WayneTheGame wrote:
My opinion (as someone in the same boat as the OP):

PROS
* Still ubiquitous and fairly popular (YMMV in your meta), still rather well known and it's likely people play
* Good models
* Great lore
* Can be fun if you play with a like-minded group who want to have a good time and not necessarily win.

CONS
* Prices are terrible for value, and continually get worse; a $50 Codex generally requires a $50 supplement to restore things that were removed and there's dataslates that do the same
* Random charts everywhere in the name of "narrative" gaming, when all they really do is add needless complexity. Things like the Maelstrom Missions/Objective Cards can range from interesting to screwing you over because you picked a bad hand
* Zero care to balance of any kind, even within armies. Pick a wrong unit and you're more likely to lose a game based just on that fact; you are often punished for picking a unit that you like the looks/fluff for over a unit that plays better on the table.
* Requires a lot of discussion with your opponent prior to a game; fine if you're in an established group, not that fine if you play at a FLGS on "40k Night"
* GW's business practices overall reflect badly on the company.

Excellent summary.

Another one who hasn't played since 4th edition. What is a supplemental codex?

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
Another one who hasn't played since 4th edition. What is a supplemental codex?

2 pages of wargear options, maybe a new Warlord Traits chart, if you're lucky maybe a new character or something, and maybe something like "Take X choice as Troops" and 48 pages of fluff (oh and some "Historical Scenario" missions that you're unlikely to play) that costs the same as a full codex, but requires the full codex to use.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
Another one who hasn't played since 4th edition. What is a supplemental codex?

2 pages of wargear options, maybe a new Warlord Traits chart, if you're lucky maybe a new character or something, and maybe something like "Take X choice as Troops" and 48 pages of fluff (oh and some "Historical Scenario" missions that you're unlikely to play) that costs the same as a full codex, but requires the full codex to use.

but why wouldnt they just include this into the codex? I mean I picked up the ork codex a couple days ago. How can a codex be SO bad? The 4th edition ork codex had an entire page of fluff PER unit. plus every word that this new codex has. Also I didnt even know which FO slot each unit was in until i noticed the icons. Not even a SINGLE word in the entry about what type of unit it is..and now your telling me at some point I have to spend another $50 so they can fix their mistakes?? I mean GW got beat up on when I was playing.. but they raise prices and drop the quality of their product? I bought the RULEBOOK for $50 the last time I played... not a fething codex that is incomplete and lack luster. 3-5 pages of art and the rest ore just staged models. oh jee wiz thanks!

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
Another one who hasn't played since 4th edition. What is a supplemental codex?

2 pages of wargear options, maybe a new Warlord Traits chart, if you're lucky maybe a new character or something, and maybe something like "Take X choice as Troops" and 48 pages of fluff (oh and some "Historical Scenario" missions that you're unlikely to play) that costs the same as a full codex, but requires the full codex to use.

but why wouldnt they just include this into the codex? I mean I picked up the ork codex a couple days ago. How can a codex be SO bad? The 4th edition ork codex had an entire page of fluff PER unit. plus every word that this new codex has. Also I didnt even know which FO slot each unit was in until i noticed the icons. Not even a SINGLE word in the entry about what type of unit it is..and now your telling me at some point I have to spend another $50 so they can fix their mistakes?? I mean GW got beat up on when I was playing.. but they raise prices and drop the quality of their product? I bought the RULEBOOK for $50 the last time I played... not a ****ing codex that is incomplete and lack luster. 3-5 pages of art and the rest ore just staged models. oh jee wiz thanks!

To get more money. That is all.

People were mad that they played something, and then GW came by and took away the fluff and rules for what they were playing, so GW gave it back to them in the form of an entire separate book filled with fluff and pictures, and some of the extra rules back.

But that made people angry, because they got what they asked for. And then they needed to make other people feel bad about themselves too, because misery needs company.

Adding my voice to the "wait and see... and maybe check another game" crowd. Wayne summarized it well.

 Ailaros wrote:
And then they needed to make other people feel bad about themselves too, because misery needs company.

Given how little you care for our enjoyment, it's hard to care much about yours.

Each person has to decide how much they are going to spend on the rules. For most play the Codex is suffice not. I know we have a Store Copy of the BrB for use. And Codex Supplements are so small in rules that they are quite easy to just learn them and use them.

Don't act as if you MUST spend the money on BrB, Codex, and Supplement. Just make sure you have or borrow the source materials when you play GTs.

 Ailaros wrote:
People were mad that they played something, and then GW came by and took away the fluff and rules for what they were playing, so GW gave it back to them in the form of an entire separate book filled with fluff and pictures, and some of the extra rules back.

But that made people angry, because they got what they asked for. And then they needed to make other people feel bad about themselves too, because misery needs company.

I think people are angry because you have to pay a lot more aside from what they're already paying, just to get what they asked for in the first place.

If you are interested in 40k I would find a way to read the rulebook before buying it and decide for yourself if it is worth the investment.

Take this with a grain of salt, as I am somewhat of a GW fanboy. 7th is my favorite edition yet. (been playing since 2nd ed dropped) Lots of fun. Try a couple games out and read the rulebook over before you buy, if possible. Lot's of good battle reports out there, too. I honestly haven't had this much fun playing 40k in a long time.

Also, realize that there are 40k haters out there, and they are usually the most vocal. Strangely enough, they hate the game... but still troll the 40k forums to let everyone know they hate it. over and over and over....

Do you play with a close group or pick up games?
If its the former, you'll have fun though at a high price. If its the later you'll face power level frustrations and won't find many close games due to drastic power imbalances and styles of play.

Also, don't dismiss criticisms of the game because someone labels them "haters." It's like buying a car and someone tells you "You'll only get ten miles to the gallon and the engine is known to break down after a week." There are cheaper and better cars out there.

Ailaros wrote:But that made people angry, because they got what they asked for.

Oh, yes, I'm sure people were just begging for $100 codexes spread across two volumes. I remember seeing all sorts of threads and posts demanding that.

Oh wait. There were zero.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gangrel767 wrote:
Also, realize that there are 40k haters out there, and they are usually the most vocal. Strangely enough, they hate the game... but still troll the 40k forums to let everyone know they hate it. over and over and over....

The other thing to remember is that the game is not the whole 40k experience. There are 40k RPGs published by Fantasy Flight and a variety of appropriate miniature gaming rules you can use with 40k figures. As well as alternative miniatures from people like Kromlech, Anvil Industries, Victoria Miniatures and others that you can use for the 40k universe.

People may have a very, very low opinion of the current rules for 40k, but that doesn't mean they hate anything. It just means they figured out there's a better way to do the 40k universe than the way GW sells.

---

If you are thinking about coming back to 40k. Here are some steps to follow.
1. Don't ever post anything on dakka that will allow the GW haters to do what it is they do. They will do nothing but bash it and tell you how awful it is. Yet they don't stop playing or coming here. I assume they let their girlfriends cheat on them as well and say nothing. ;-)
2. Look around on FB for some local gaming groups. This assumes you live decently close to a actual population center. Its totally ok if you don't just harder to find people.
3. Go ask your FLGS if they have a gaming night or gaming group. May have to stop at a few stores depending on where you live. Here in Pittsburgh we have 3 shops and only one worth a damn.
4. Pick up a book. Read some. See if you like it. Download WD weekly if you have a iPad. Its 4 bucks American and its a good bathroom read. If you have a decent bookstore nearby pick up a 40k novel. They are typically 8-9 bucks paperback.
5. Look in the "find a game" thread here on dakka I have met 4 people within driving range now.
6. Don't let anyone tell you how great or not great it is. Decide for yourself. I love 40k. You may not. It may not be your cup of tea. How would I know what you like I don't know you?

Good luck man!!

 lobbywatson wrote:
If you are thinking about coming back to 40k. Here are some steps to follow.
1. Don't ever post anything on dakka that will allow the GW haters to do what it is they do. They will do nothing but bash it and tell you how awful it is. Yet they don't stop playing or coming here. I assume they let their girlfriends cheat on them as well and say nothing. ;-)
2. Look around on FB for some local gaming groups. This assumes you live decently close to a actual population center. Its totally ok if you don't just harder to find people.
3. Go ask your FLGS if they have a gaming night or gaming group. May have to stop at a few stores depending on where you live. Here in Pittsburgh we have 3 shops and only one worth a damn.
4. Pick up a book. Read some. See if you like it. Download WD weekly if you have a iPad. Its 4 bucks American and its a good bathroom read. If you have a decent bookstore nearby pick up a 40k novel. They are typically 8-9 bucks paperback.
5. Look in the "find a game" thread here on dakka I have met 4 people within driving range now.
6. Don't let anyone tell you how great or not great it is. Decide for yourself. I love 40k. You may not. It may not be your cup of tea. How would I know what you like I don't know you?

Good luck man!!

That's the kind of negativity that we don't need here. Baseless insults and dismissing everyone with a different opinion than you.

Relax Captain Butthurt. Hence the smiley face its a joke. Obviously not to you however. I'm sorry she cheated....

Okay enough with the calling out and the name calling guys. Thanks.

I also recently started playing 40K again. I think 7th is pretty great, I like it more than 5th (the edition I played the most before I took a break due to IRL stuff).

If you're thinking about getting back into the hobby, be sure to check out your local gaming scene. I play at a store but I could also play at a club if I wanted to - I prefer the store because the terrain they have is better and the store rules actually make me paint my stuff, which I've always been awful at.

But yes, look around in your area, meet some people and talk to them about getting back in. Even if you decide not to take the plunge, you still might make some new friends.

As for tau, I've never played with them, but have faced them a few times since 7th came out. Like the others have already pointed out, tau are mostly a static gunline, but a very devastating one at that. Their Farsight supplement is also supposed to be pretty good, although I don't know how the Farsight bomb holds up this edition. If you're into battlesuits, the supplement might be worth looking into anyway!

We can openly insult people and be rude but as long as we put a smiley face on it it's ok...good to know...

Back to the question. I can only share how I started, and maybe that might give an insight. I simply went to a store and loved the Eldar models, and bought a Battleforce. That was back in 3rd ed. So, for me, it's the models - and it helps tremendously that I've got an amazing group of friends (most of whom I met because of the hobby) to play and hang with. I've been in 40k actively since 3rd ed, and I must say I really like 7th ed.