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 Quarterdime wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Anything written by C. S. Goto or Ben Counter.

WHAT? Ben Counter is my favorite author! I consider his work to be the best of the Black Library! He's the one who got me interested in Captain Lysander, and the author of my favorite Black Library book Malodrax, which reads like it's Alice in Wonderland set in 40k.

He also can't write characters, just two dimensional cardboard cutouts and just largely writes tropes. Battle for the Abyss being an exceptional example of this, or his Space Wolves work where Counter shoves the word "Wolf" into nearly even goddamned sentence.

Wolf. Wolf wolf wolf. Wolf wolf. Wolf wolf wolf. Wolf wolf, wolf wolf wolf. Wolf. Wolf wolf wolf wolf wolf. Wolf wolf.

Why do people hate CS Goto so much?

Sure maybe his books are bad, but they're so easy to ignore I can't imagine why anyone would really care.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Quarterdime wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Anything written by C. S. Goto or Ben Counter.

WHAT? Ben Counter is my favorite author! I consider his work to be the best of the Black Library! He's the one who got me interested in Captain Lysander, and the author of my favorite Black Library book Malodrax, which reads like it's Alice in Wonderland set in 40k.

He also can't write characters, just two dimensional cardboard cutouts and just largely writes tropes. Battle for the Abyss being an exceptional example of this, or his Space Wolves work where Counter shoves the word "Wolf" into nearly even goddamned sentence.

Wolf. Wolf wolf wolf. Wolf wolf. Wolf wolf wolf. Wolf wolf, wolf wolf wolf. Wolf. Wolf wolf wolf wolf wolf. Wolf wolf.

When has Counter ever worked on the Space Wolves?

His first Grey Knights novel was amazing. Best of the trilogy.

Cultists killing Sisters is the worst piece of fluff you've ever read? What? Seriously?

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Why do people hate CS Goto so much?

Sure maybe his books are bad, but they're so easy to ignore I can't imagine why anyone would really care.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Quarterdime wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Anything written by C. S. Goto or Ben Counter.

WHAT? Ben Counter is my favorite author! I consider his work to be the best of the Black Library! He's the one who got me interested in Captain Lysander, and the author of my favorite Black Library book Malodrax, which reads like it's Alice in Wonderland set in 40k.

He also can't write characters, just two dimensional cardboard cutouts and just largely writes tropes. Battle for the Abyss being an exceptional example of this, or his Space Wolves work where Counter shoves the word "Wolf" into nearly even goddamned sentence.

Wolf. Wolf wolf wolf. Wolf wolf. Wolf wolf wolf. Wolf wolf, wolf wolf wolf. Wolf. Wolf wolf wolf wolf wolf. Wolf wolf.

When has Counter ever worked on the Space Wolves?

Twelve Wolves immediately jumps to mind. It was one of the most painful stories I've read in the Black Library, although I forgot it was William King who wrote the Space Wolves. I don't pay much attention to the wolves, hell outright avoid them after reading Twelve Wolves.

 Wyzilla wrote:
[

He also can't write characters, just two dimensional cardboard cutouts and just largely writes tropes. Battle for the Abyss being an exceptional example of this, or his Space Wolves work where Counter shoves the word "Wolf" into nearly even goddamned sentence.

Wolf. Wolf wolf wolf. Wolf wolf. Wolf wolf wolf. Wolf wolf, wolf wolf wolf. Wolf. Wolf wolf wolf wolf wolf. Wolf wolf.

I haven't read that book. But I think you may be confusing him writing stories involving a LOT of naturally flat characters, such as Grey Knights, who have been mentally conditioned, or Lysander, who lost part of himself on Malodrax. Between them, psychotic chaos worshippers, and side characters that don't get much character development, I can understand why you'd think that but I contend that that's the way it's supposed to be.

 Quarterdime wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
[

He also can't write characters, just two dimensional cardboard cutouts and just largely writes tropes. Battle for the Abyss being an exceptional example of this, or his Space Wolves work where Counter shoves the word "Wolf" into nearly even goddamned sentence.

Wolf. Wolf wolf wolf. Wolf wolf. Wolf wolf wolf. Wolf wolf, wolf wolf wolf. Wolf. Wolf wolf wolf wolf wolf. Wolf wolf.

I haven't read that book. But I think you may be confusing him writing stories involving a LOT of naturally flat characters, such as Grey Knights, who have been mentally conditioned, or Lysander, who lost part of himself on Malodrax. Between them, psychotic chaos worshippers, and side characters that don't get much character development, I can understand why you'd think that but I contend that that's the way it's supposed to be.

That's simply an excuse by the author being incapable of writing good characters. Counter's also responsible for the atrocious, endless source of facepalms that are the Soul Drinkers. Plus there's Battle for the Abyss, which is as dry and boring as a Michael Bay film.

Ugh, I couldn't even finish Battle for the Abyss...

I could. Not a very exciting book, though...

 Vaktathi wrote:
Ugh, I couldn't even finish Battle for the Abyss...

Same here, the only thing I liked about it was torpedo formations and general space combat, otherwise I hated it and couldn't finish it. When the World Eater is the most interesting and developed character in you're story, something's wrong.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Ugh, I couldn't even finish Battle for the Abyss...

Same here, the only thing I liked about it was torpedo formations and general space combat, otherwise I hated it and couldn't finish it. When the World Eater is the most interesting and developed character in you're story, something's wrong.

Unless the story is about the WE, but that's rare and difficult to do right.

Replying to the OP's question:

The Horus Hersey stuff bothers me the most. Now I should qualify that I have read very little Black Library novels fluff, and generally rely on codexes and source books for fluff material that I actually read directly, and haven't read the Horus Hersey Books themselves. But they bother me on a conceptual level, I am very disappointed that that period of 40K's history has now been codified and hammered down, and I much preferred that it remain a mysterious, half remembered time of living legends. So much more room for competing theories, conspiracies, false history, unexplained stuff etc etc.

I should not that I include any previous stuff that did the same thing in my 'things that bother me book', as well.

For me its the Primarchs that didn't die. Aside from Mortarian and Angron, all of the primarchs, both loyalist and traitor, have done NOTHING. There's coincidence, and then there's bs. This is bs. Magnus is the only daemon primarch with a good excuse to keep himself locked up. He's a bookworm and is trying to understand Tzeentch who is impossible to understand. Destined to spend eternity trying to understand madness. Also, he still led his legion against Fenris that one time. So that's 3. Alpharius is another good one, who knows if he's dead or alive, he wouldn't let you know either way, so that makes 4. Yay Chaos.

As for Lorgar, Fulgrim, Puerto Rico, and all of the surviving loyalist primarchs, they have fallen victim to horrifically lazy writing. Guilliman's the only one that I can exempt. He's only technically alive, and it makes perfect sense.

 Quarterdime wrote:
For me its the Primarchs that didn't die. Aside from Mortarian and Angron, all of the primarchs, both loyalist and traitor, have done NOTHING. There's coincidence, and then there's bs. This is bs. Magnus is the only daemon primarch with a good excuse to keep himself locked up. He's a bookworm and is trying to understand Tzeentch who is impossible to understand. Destined to spend eternity trying to understand madness. Also, he still led his legion against Fenris that one time. So that's 3. Alpharius is another good one, who knows if he's dead or alive, he wouldn't let you know either way, so that makes 4. Yay Chaos.

As for Lorgar, Fulgrim, Puerto Rico, and all of the surviving loyalist primarchs, they have fallen victim to horrifically lazy writing. Guilliman's the only one that I can exempt. He's only technically alive, and it makes perfect sense.

Fulgrim also gets a pass for being, well, Fulgrim.

Fulgrim is the best Primarch by far.

I mean, he's got the best KD ratio out of them all, having fethed not just one, but two other Primarchs in a manfight. Add to that his frat boy d-bag persona and just as planned hi-jinks and he's a total BAMF.

Fulgrim basically just does what he wants.

Fulgrim is useless, he only got the upper hand over Ferrus and Pert through treachery, and Guilliman was nearly killed by a squad of Alpha Legion assassins so not much of an accomplishment.

And yet his record of achievements still craps on the majority of the other Primarchs'.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
And yet his record of achievements still craps on the majority of the other Primarchs'.

Although, I'm pretty sure Konrad Curze kicked the gak out of more Primarchs, but Fulgrim has the record of a kill, plus beating one other up. Either way though, Fulgrim is pretty successful, as while it was a horrible turn in the series, he even kicked out the daemon that had possessed him. And mind you, it wasn't just your usual one, it was described as some horrible abomination older than time if my memory isn't failing me.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
And yet his record of achievements still craps on the majority of the other Primarchs'.

If you're going by achievements, Lorgar is the best Primarch. Bar none.

Fulgrim would still be a bitch in a painting without Lorgar.

Lorgar would be dead were it not for Curze.

So what we've established is that Curze is the mightiest Primarch. I can accept that.

Lorgar would be dead were it not for Curze.

But Curze wouldn't have had a convenient Heresy to join without Lorgar. Its pretty well implied that both Curze and Angron were next on the Emperors chopping block.

And Lorgar wouldn't have started the Heresy if the Emperor hadn't punked him out in front of his bros.

And the Emperor wouldn't have punked him out in front of his bros if Guilliman hadn't provoked Lorgar.

Guilliman is the mightiest Primarch.

Was that ever in doubt?

He is the Spiritual Liege for a reason.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:Fulgrim is useless, he only got the upper hand over Ferrus and Pert through treachery, and Guilliman was nearly killed by a squad of Alpha Legion assassins so not much of an accomplishment.

The fact that he was sufficiently treacherous to get the upper hand over Perturabo the Paranoid kind of denies the idea that he is in any way useless. Treachery is a skill too.

I think the moral of this story is never take the 40k fluff too seriously.
Because when you look at it closely, its really, really, dumb.

Some people need some really dumb fiction to put all their urine and hate into. Otherwise I might do stupid things like burn my evil neighbours houses down. >>

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Some people need some really dumb fiction to put all their urine and hate into. Otherwise I might do stupid things like burn my evil neighbours houses down. >>

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against dumb, trashy fiction.

For me the 40k fluff is what you make of it yourself.
I can ignore all the dumb crap written by some of the Black Library writers, because I don't read most of it.

Just pick and choose the bits you like and ignore the rest as a delirious, warp dream or something.

The Crimson Fist fluff is stupid for one reason: they had to have the Crimson Fist's own missile system be the reason they were put in a bad position by the invading orks. They couldn't actually have the orks get one over on a chapter, no, they had to put themselves in that poor position.

 PhillyT wrote:
The Crimson Fist fluff is stupid for one reason: they had to have the Crimson Fist's own missile system be the reason they were put in a bad position by the invading orks. They couldn't actually have the orks get one over on a chapter, no, they had to put themselves in that poor position.

I don't know, the fact that the Orks took their missile system and managed to use it to screw them over is pretty good for the orks.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
The Crimson Fist fluff is stupid for one reason: they had to have the Crimson Fist's own missile system be the reason they were put in a bad position by the invading orks. They couldn't actually have the orks get one over on a chapter, no, they had to put themselves in that poor position.

I don't know, the fact that the Orks took their missile system and managed to use it to screw them over is pretty good for the orks.

The orks tried to damage the missiles, causing a misfire. In that battle, the only thing the orks really managed was to kill some survivors.