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 Selym wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
The Crimson Fist fluff is stupid for one reason: they had to have the Crimson Fist's own missile system be the reason they were put in a bad position by the invading orks. They couldn't actually have the orks get one over on a chapter, no, they had to put themselves in that poor position.

I don't know, the fact that the Orks took their missile system and managed to use it to screw them over is pretty good for the orks.

The orks tried to damage the missiles, causing a misfire. In that battle, the only thing the orks really managed was to kill some survivors.

If they caused the misfire then surely it's their fault the Chapter was blown up......

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Either the GK/SoB incident, or the entirety of the lore behind the Sons of Malice.

Oh god I hate the idea of Malal, and the later incarnation of the same idea, Malice. It's a Chaos God for people who want to be so edgy and hipster they're more chaotic than chaos.

#2edgy4chaos

Malal is more canon that most stuff.

He pre-dates WH40K.

Edit: I just checked to make sure. The first occurrence of Malal I could find was in the 1st edition Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay rulebook that was released in 1986. Warhammer 40k's Rogue Trader book was released in 1987.

Have to say all the Stalemates. It feels like the The Imperium never loses, they just get into a stalemate or win.

Biggest stalemate not the Imperium, but Orks vs Tyranids on Octarius(sp). So much so that in the new Ork Codex they threw Ghaz at the issue. Who still has the Armageddon going on...

DontEatRawHagis wrote:
Have to say all the Stalemates. It feels like the The Imperium never loses, they just get into a stalemate or win.

Biggest stalemate not the Imperium, but Orks vs Tyranids on Octarius(sp). So much so that in the new Ork Codex they threw Ghaz at the issue. Who still has the Armageddon going on...

Ghazkhull abandoning Armageddon (he didn't want to wait for the Season of Fire to end) has been cannon for about 10 years now?

It's less about Ghaz abandoning Armageddon and more about the only way they could finish the stalemate with Tyranids was to add Ghazzy who seems to be locked in a stale mate on another planet.

Additionally:
How are Space Marine chapters able to bounce back so easily. Space Hulk canonized the death of nearly 99% of Blood Angels and still Salamanders are the smallest chapter.

With only a 1000 strong for most chapters I'm surprised more of them haven't been eradicated. Especially considering they send entire companies of 100 to fight an entire uprising sometimes.

DontEatRawHagis wrote:
It's less about Ghaz abandoning Armageddon and more about the only way they could finish the stalemate with Tyranids was to add Ghazzy who seems to be locked in a stale mate on another planet.

Additionally:
How are Space Marine chapters able to bounce back so easily. Space Hulk canonized the death of nearly 99% of Blood Angels and still Salamanders are the smallest chapter.

With only a 1000 strong for most chapters I'm surprised more of them haven't been eradicated. Especially considering they send entire companies of 100 to fight an entire uprising sometimes.

It only takes 55 years to go from 1 progenoid gland to a Chapter's worth of gene-seed, so if they decided to take some down time they'd be able to bounce back pretty quick in the Imperial scheme of things.
Salamanders are kept small because they recruit very slowly.

Really it all went downhill after Space Marine, just the right combination of humour and grimdark, and it had squats!

Saldiven wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Either the GK/SoB incident, or the entirety of the lore behind the Sons of Malice.

Oh god I hate the idea of Malal, and the later incarnation of the same idea, Malice. It's a Chaos God for people who want to be so edgy and hipster they're more chaotic than chaos.

#2edgy4chaos

Malal is more canon that most stuff.

He pre-dates WH40K.

Edit: I just checked to make sure. The first occurrence of Malal I could find was in the 1st edition Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay rulebook that was released in 1986. Warhammer 40k's Rogue Trader book was released in 1987.

No he isn't. Malal was retconned years ago due to a copyright dispute. He hasn't been canon for over a decade. Malice is canon however, although he's only showed up once in the short-story Labyrinth, and there is nothing pointing to Malice actually being a Chaos God, more of a glorified unaligned daemon.

Also, the older fluff is, the less canon it is, because it's more likely its been retconned by something. 40K is always marching forward, meaning that stuff that doesn't get updated is left behind in the dust.

 farmersboy wrote:
Really it all went downhill after Space Marine, just the right combination of humour and grimdark, and it had squats!

Also, the Inquisition War trilogy. That was an awesome series, and it too had Squats!

Draigo. Hands down, it's not even a back story, it's just a list of things the guy has punched.

DontEatRawHagis wrote:
It's less about Ghaz abandoning Armageddon and more about the only way they could finish the stalemate with Tyranids was to add Ghazzy who seems to be locked in a stale mate on another planet.

Additionally:
How are Space Marine chapters able to bounce back so easily. Space Hulk canonized the death of nearly 99% of Blood Angels and still Salamanders are the smallest chapter.

With only a 1000 strong for most chapters I'm surprised more of them haven't been eradicated. Especially considering they send entire companies of 100 to fight an entire uprising sometimes.

Lesser chapters routinely get eradicated, and they are either remade or replaced by the IOM, using some of the reserve geneseeds that all chapters have to send off as taxation.
Also, it is highly probable that the most reputable chapters such as the BA or UM would get a few hundred 'seeds refunded after a crisis.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:

Saldiven wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Either the GK/SoB incident, or the entirety of the lore behind the Sons of Malice.

Oh god I hate the idea of Malal, and the later incarnation of the same idea, Malice. It's a Chaos God for people who want to be so edgy and hipster they're more chaotic than chaos.

#2edgy4chaos

Malal is more canon that most stuff.

He pre-dates WH40K.

Edit: I just checked to make sure. The first occurrence of Malal I could find was in the 1st edition Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay rulebook that was released in 1986. Warhammer 40k's Rogue Trader book was released in 1987.

No he isn't. Malal was retconned years ago due to a copyright dispute. He hasn't been canon for over a decade. Malice is canon however, although he's only showed up once in the short-story Labyrinth, and there is nothing pointing to Malice actually being a Chaos God, more of a glorified unaligned daemon.

Also, the older fluff is, the less canon it is, because it's more likely its been retconned by something. 40K is always marching forward, meaning that stuff that doesn't get updated is left behind in the dust.

The closest you'd get to a fifth chaos god in 40k atm is Be'lakor, but only in that he has a history of being worshiped as one.
The four gods pooled their power to make him as a sort of spearhead, like Horus. The four gods since then have been fighting for control of his allegiance, to use him as a direct influence on the universe.

I would have to go with Matt Ward's rendition of GK and the reason I sold the army. From making Purifiers akin to a secret frat house. Everyone wants to get in, but if they go in without the approval of purifiers then they are beaten or as Matt puts it "never seen again." Plus he describes the older librarians teaching the younger ones, but still looking out for possible corruption.

All of this would be fine and good for a normal space marine chapter. Even the dark angels might silence a few of its own members should they learn too much about their secrets. However, this is the Grey Knights, its in the codex as it has been in the last one that Grey Knights (once fully done with procedures) are immune to the temptations of the warp. You dont need to watch over the early librarians because they already proved to be resistant to any kind of chaos. In addition, what kind of secrets do the Purifier have that really require killing a curious grey knight brother? They already know of chaos, of the origins of the horus heresy and they often work with the inquistion so they are used to dealing with secrets.

As for those who complain about the new Necrons, I actually much prefer the new Necron content. Before they were all unthinking robot slaves controlled by the C'tan. In a sense, they were like the tyranids, at least in behavior. Both the Hive Mind and the C'tan control their subjects with and iron will and the troops are essentially mindless drones.

For the Tyranids, this works. They are bugs and so they should have a more bestial and alien way of behavior. For necrons, it was boring and just left the hobbyist little in the way of conversions. The new background though gives the necron lords and their court a voice and personality now. Zahndrek is one of my favorite characters as I enjoy the idea of the long sleep making certain lords, or whole dynasties, a little eccentric. This way you can have new options now with modeling. (maybe Zahndrek's bodyguards can carry goblets with them since he believe's they are still flesh and blood)

like the eldar too, this diversity of personalities like how there are substantially different cultures on different craft worlds, means that you can find lots of different reasons for them to fight (or to ally). Instead of being the merciless, cold robots they were before, some lords are described as sending emissaries or trying to payoff certain imperial governors for access to their tombs or just simply have them assassinated so that they can take the planet more easily. Like the differences between Iyanden, Saim-Hann, and Ulthwe, different necron dynasties could behave and fight in very different ways and thus it gives more options to the player and more possibilities.

Actually the oldcron codex, while still very flawed, was still preferable to the generic cookie-cutter bread and butter cartoon villains they often are now.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Actually the oldcron codex, while still very flawed, was still preferable to the generic cookie-cutter bread and butter cartoon villains they often are now.

I'm sorry, but you can't get more generic bad guys than the Grim Reaper and Satan.

Animus wrote:
I'm sorry, but you can't get more generic bad guys than the Grim Reaper and Satan.

None of the other Grim Reaper figures went about their reaping in nearly the same manner as Nightbringer, and Satan? Are you referring to The Deceiver?

I'll also point out that giving Necron Lords personalities is not and never has been what oldcron fans disliked about the new fluff, for the most part.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Animus wrote:
I'm sorry, but you can't get more generic bad guys than the Grim Reaper and Satan.

None of the other Grim Reaper figures went about their reaping in nearly the same manner as Nightbringer, and Satan? Are you referring to The Deceiver?

I'll also point out that giving Necron Lords personalities is not and never has been what oldcron fans disliked about the new fluff, for the most part.

Killing people with his scythe is a pretty Grim Reaper thing to do. And yes, the Deceiver is a Satan analogue; Prince of Lies, Faustian bargaining, fair form, and he even has horns.

It seems to me that that is what they dislike, because it makes them not so monolithic or "scary" as if they ever were.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Animus wrote:
I'm sorry, but you can't get more generic bad guys than the Grim Reaper and Satan.

None of the other Grim Reaper figures went about their reaping in nearly the same manner as Nightbringer, and Satan? Are you referring to The Deceiver?

I'll also point out that giving Necron Lords personalities is not and never has been what oldcron fans disliked about the new fluff, for the most part.

It's the main thing what irks me about NewCron fluff. To TruCrons, Necrons will always be a mindless mass of robot minions led by the C'tan. I, personally, when fielding Zahndrekh, name him 01010100 01100001 01101011 01110100 01101001 01101011 (on army list, on the battlefield, it's just "leading unit") and every unit is referred to with a number as well.

pm713 wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
The Crimson Fist fluff is stupid for one reason: they had to have the Crimson Fist's own missile system be the reason they were put in a bad position by the invading orks. They couldn't actually have the orks get one over on a chapter, no, they had to put themselves in that poor position.

I don't know, the fact that the Orks took their missile system and managed to use it to screw them over is pretty good for the orks.

The orks tried to damage the missiles, causing a misfire. In that battle, the only thing the orks really managed was to kill some survivors.

If they caused the misfire then surely it's their fault the Chapter was blown up......

I don't think that the missile misfire was an intentional act by the orks. I thought the missiles misfired through random damage during the attack (as in orks just fire away at things hoping that they will go boom).

Either way, the fact remains that the terrible damage suffered by the Crimson Fists weren't due to the ork's tactical precision. It was their own super awesome space marine weapons accidentally shooting themselves.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 farmersboy wrote:
Really it all went downhill after Space Marine, just the right combination of humour and grimdark, and it had squats!

Also, the Inquisition War trilogy. That was an awesome series, and it too had Squats!

Indeed, before they got retconned...

Void__Dragon wrote:

Animus wrote:
I'm sorry, but you can't get more generic bad guys than the Grim Reaper and Satan.

None of the other Grim Reaper figures went about their reaping in nearly the same manner as Nightbringer, and Satan? Are you referring to The Deceiver?

I'll also point out that giving Necron Lords personalities is not and never has been what oldcron fans disliked about the new fluff, for the most part.

Well, no, it certainly isn't the problem that oldcron players have with the newcron fluff - because it's not newcron fluff OIdcron fluff stated that the dormant Lords and rulers had intact personalities and emotions. It's in the original Apocalypse rulebook, as well as many White Dwarf sources. Anyone claiming to be a "Trucron" fan who doesn't know that is nothing more than a poseur.

Animus wrote:Killing people with his scythe is a pretty Grim Reaper thing to do. And yes, the Deceiver is a Satan analogue; Prince of Lies, Faustian bargaining, fair form, and he even has horns.

It seems to me that that is what they dislike, because it makes them not so monolithic or "scary" as if they ever were.

Except for the fact that the Nightbringer's scythe was purely cosmetic, it stated so in his codex entry. Also, the Grim Reaper as we know it, in universe, is a vision of the Nightbringer built into our ancestral memory. According to Oldcron fluff, anyway.

Sigvatr wrote:It's the main thing what irks me about NewCron fluff. To TruCrons, Necrons will always be a mindless mass of robot minions led by the C'tan. I, personally, when fielding Zahndrekh, name him 01010100 01100001 01101011 01110100 01101001 01101011 (on army list, on the battlefield, it's just "leading unit") and every unit is referred to with a number as well.

Oldcron fluff had the Lords' secret, hidden masters who were yet to awaken with personalities too. That's not a Newcron invention.

 djdutton wrote:
I would have to go with Matt Ward's rendition of GK and the reason I sold the army. From making Purifiers akin to a secret frat house. Everyone wants to get in, but if they go in without the approval of purifiers then they are beaten or as Matt puts it "never seen again." Plus he describes the older librarians teaching the younger ones, but still looking out for possible corruption.

All of this would be fine and good for a normal space marine chapter. Even the dark angels might silence a few of its own members should they learn too much about their secrets. However, this is the Grey Knights, its in the codex as it has been in the last one that Grey Knights (once fully done with procedures) are immune to the temptations of the warp. You dont need to watch over the early librarians because they already proved to be resistant to any kind of chaos. In addition, what kind of secrets do the Purifier have that really require killing a curious grey knight brother? They already know of chaos, of the origins of the horus heresy and they often work with the inquistion so they are used to dealing with secrets.

Personally I think the idea the purifiers are guarding something so secrect even the rank and file grey knights cannot know of it is an intresting one. something another author could take and run with at a later date. I'll give that a pass myself, (I've got a personal pet theory that the thing that's really being guarded is the Terminus decree. which is in my theory, the key to awaken the Emperor)
as for Librarians watching others for signs of chaos corruption, I don't see any issue with this, I see it as more the grey knights aren't being complacent and taking their incorruptability for granted. Complacancy in matters of the soul is proably a HUGE weakness.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Well, no, it certainly isn't the problem that oldcron players have with the newcron fluff - because it's not newcron fluff OIdcron fluff stated that the dormant Lords and rulers had intact personalities and emotions. It's in the original Apocalypse rulebook, as well as many White Dwarf sources. Anyone claiming to be a "Trucron" fan who doesn't know that is nothing more than a poseur.

Right, which I've been saying for years, literally since the newcron codex came out. There was IIRC one quote attributed to a Necron Lord in the 3e codex proper, and one holds an actual conversation with someone in Xenology.

Which is why the "hurr ur just mad cause necrons aren't boring with no personality anymore" argument is fundamentally bs. It's a matter of presentation, and the Necrons as presented in the fifth edition codex have very little in common with the third edition codex.

Yeah, the older necrons were much more interesting to me. There was intelligence there, but only amongst the highest echelons, and it was all very shadowy. Now they're just Tomb Kings in SPAAAAAAACE.

Animus wrote:


Killing people with his scythe is a pretty Grim Reaper thing to do.

Okay,,,? As Furyou Miko pointed out, the grim reaper as a concept was created by the Nightbringer imprinting its image upon the genetic memory of every species save the Orks.

The Nightbringer is different from the standard Grim Reaper model though in that death is just the conclusion to its game. It likes to enjoy itself before it kills, thrilling in the pain and fear of its victims as it hunts and stalks them.

And yes, the Deceiver is a Satan analogue; Prince of Lies, Faustian bargaining, fair form, and he even has horns.

Which still makes it relatively fresh and interesting in the setting of 40k.

Almost everything, maybe everything in 40k is heavily based on something that came before.

It seems to me that that is what they dislike, because it makes them not so monolithic or "scary" as if they ever were.

They aren't as monolithic or scary anymore, and that's due to presentation. A faction that has a mustache-twirling over the top Doctor Doom-esque archaeologist clashes heavily with the image and presentation of the Necrons prior. As does Zandrekh. Or that other guy whose name I forget.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Anyone claiming to be a "Trucron" fan who doesn't know that is nothing more than a poseur.

True? Poseur?
Are you a metalhead, Ana ?

 Sigvatr wrote:

It's the main thing what irks me about NewCron fluff. To TruCrons, Necrons will always be a mindless mass of robot minions led by the C'tan. I, personally, when fielding Zahndrekh, name him 01010100 01100001 01101011 01110100 01101001 01101011 (on army list, on the battlefield, it's just "leading unit") and every unit is referred to with a number as well.

Why name it "Taktik"?

The whole Horus Heresy series has successfully reduced a cool piece of a fluff to several thousand pages of wangsty Primarchs and the God Emperor just being a misunderstood good guy. But I suppose that its too big at this point to be considered one piece of bad fluff. Its closer to several pieces of bad fluff.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Yeah, the older necrons were much more interesting to me. There was intelligence there, but only amongst the highest echelons, and it was all very shadowy. Now they're just Tomb Kings in SPAAAAAAACE.

I have played Necrons since 3rd when they were codex: CTan. Current fluff is much more dynamic and interesting while still having plenty of room for the old fluff.

Okay,,,? As Furyou Miko pointed out, the grim reaper as a concept was created by the Nightbringer imprinting its image upon the genetic memory of every species save the Orks.

Despite the fact that is very, very stupid. Considering it was said he was the one who put the fear of 'death' into every race Except the Orks, who still feel freakin fear! Heck several Ork players I know despite the Necron codex for trying to shoehorn them in a biological weapon against the Necron alongside the Eldar.

Then there's the fact that Necrons, being metal tyranids never really suffered much of anything that could be considered a 'loss', they always won, it was a very Pyrrhic victory and that the Necrons aren't even hurt..

Mary Sue oldcrons pretty much, still don't like em.

PhillyT wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Yeah, the older necrons were much more interesting to me. There was intelligence there, but only amongst the highest echelons, and it was all very shadowy. Now they're just Tomb Kings in SPAAAAAAACE.

I have played Necrons since 3rd when they were codex: CTan. Current fluff is much more dynamic and interesting while still having plenty of room for the old fluff.

Eh, to each their own. I find the new fluff to humanizes them too much, I liked Necrons much more as the sort of un-knowable dark force of impending doom, rather than the splintered dynasties of squabbling oligarchs they are now. Too me they just really are too derivative of the Tomb Kings, which cheapens both in my eyes.