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 TheSilo wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
Any fluff concerning stubborn SM chapters having their companies or entire compliment of warriors wiped out because they don't know when to quit. I get that they're human at least in part, but this gak is idiotic. Makes for great fluffy last stands, which I love, but when you look at the big picture it's too stupid for words.

Marines having an infinite supply of grenades. Seriously, read the Space Wolf stories (I still love them to pieces), but Ragnar and his homies have like a thousand grenades and melta bombs.

Except that this sort of thing happens all the time in history. Japan and Russia in World War 2 would order their soldiers to hold no matter the cost, resulting in tons of suicidal defenses, resulting in the decimation of entire army groups.

And as we all know, the IOM has plenty of rulers/commanders/authorities that are far too egomaniacal to back down.
Inquisitors, Planetary Governors, Prideful Spehss Mehreenz, etc.

 Selym wrote:

And as we all know, the IOM has plenty of rulers/commanders/authorities that are far too egomaniacal to back down.
Inquisitors, Planetary Governors, Prideful Spehss Mehreenz, etc.

I believe his point was that if Space Marines do it with any consistency then they'd rapidly be wiped out. It's one thing for the Imperial Guard or PDF to do it; it's another for the some of best trained, most expensive and rare troops of the Imperium to throw their lives away.

But not all Space Marines do this and it has been pointed out that only the most stubborn of Space Marines will not fall back and would rather die a glorious death than retreat, however the rest of the Space Marines think that this is stupid. There are times when the last stand is not avoidable and you go down fighting but the majority of Space Marines do not willingly or constantly put them selves in situations were they die and if they do then it's because there are no other options.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Selym wrote:

And as we all know, the IOM has plenty of rulers/commanders/authorities that are far too egomaniacal to back down.
Inquisitors, Planetary Governors, Prideful Spehss Mehreenz, etc.

I believe his point was that if Space Marines do it with any consistency then they'd rapidly be wiped out. It's one thing for the Imperial Guard or PDF to do it; it's another for the some of best trained, most expensive and rare troops of the Imperium to throw their lives away.

The problem is though, that SM fight far more for honor and glory than much else, resulting in many of them (as per fluff) just sitting there like a bunch of plebs, waiting to run out of ammo and die.

It would make more sense for them to just do a fly/drive by with the heaviest weapons available (as per early SAS), but then you wouldn't have a TT game.
Nor would you really have a story, for that matter, as combat situations would last mere minutes, and have many months between deployment, even on the same planet (as per modern Spec Ops).

 Selym wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Selym wrote:

And as we all know, the IOM has plenty of rulers/commanders/authorities that are far too egomaniacal to back down.
Inquisitors, Planetary Governors, Prideful Spehss Mehreenz, etc.

I believe his point was that if Space Marines do it with any consistency then they'd rapidly be wiped out. It's one thing for the Imperial Guard or PDF to do it; it's another for the some of best trained, most expensive and rare troops of the Imperium to throw their lives away.

The problem is though, that SM fight far more for honor and glory than much else, resulting in many of them (as per fluff) just sitting there like a bunch of plebs, waiting to run out of ammo and die.

It would make more sense for them to just do a fly/drive by with the heaviest weapons available (as per early SAS), but then you wouldn't have a TT game.
Nor would you really have a story, for that matter, as combat situations would last mere minutes, and have many months between deployment, even on the same planet (as per modern Spec Ops).

As per the flyby idea. No. If your enemy has anti-aircraft weapons you're flying your men into a killzone, ground battles are often the only choice. Look at Siege of Vraks for an example.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Selym wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Selym wrote:

And as we all know, the IOM has plenty of rulers/commanders/authorities that are far too egomaniacal to back down.
Inquisitors, Planetary Governors, Prideful Spehss Mehreenz, etc.

I believe his point was that if Space Marines do it with any consistency then they'd rapidly be wiped out. It's one thing for the Imperial Guard or PDF to do it; it's another for the some of best trained, most expensive and rare troops of the Imperium to throw their lives away.

The problem is though, that SM fight far more for honor and glory than much else, resulting in many of them (as per fluff) just sitting there like a bunch of plebs, waiting to run out of ammo and die.

It would make more sense for them to just do a fly/drive by with the heaviest weapons available (as per early SAS), but then you wouldn't have a TT game.
Nor would you really have a story, for that matter, as combat situations would last mere minutes, and have many months between deployment, even on the same planet (as per modern Spec Ops).

As per the flyby idea. No. If your enemy has anti-aircraft weapons you're flying your men into a killzone, ground battles are often the only choice. Look at Siege of Vraks for an example.

Well, anything that works as a quick destructive assault would do. It's not necessary to fight a pitched battle all the time. More specialized missions would be the SM's forte, such as "Blow up this void shield generator", or "Kill this one target", or "Hit and Run on this airbase". Smash the enemy quickly, and have the basic troopers do the holding-the-line/cleanup.

But SM's wouldn't work in the 40k TT as that kind of force, as they'd just be a bigger and meaner Militarum Tempestus. And as we all know, the BL books are supposed to be a supporting product to the miniatures line, and thus end up trying to get a SM force in a pitched battle/last stand (with many exceptions, admittedly).

Well, the SM kinda are just bigger, meaner stormtroopers.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Well, the SM kinda are just bigger, meaner stormtroopers.

I mean in the sense of always being attached to an IG army, stuck in reserves, deepstriking into the field, and doing one specific thing. And probably sans predators.

 Selym wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Selym wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Selym wrote:

And as we all know, the IOM has plenty of rulers/commanders/authorities that are far too egomaniacal to back down.
Inquisitors, Planetary Governors, Prideful Spehss Mehreenz, etc.

I believe his point was that if Space Marines do it with any consistency then they'd rapidly be wiped out. It's one thing for the Imperial Guard or PDF to do it; it's another for the some of best trained, most expensive and rare troops of the Imperium to throw their lives away.

The problem is though, that SM fight far more for honor and glory than much else, resulting in many of them (as per fluff) just sitting there like a bunch of plebs, waiting to run out of ammo and die.

It would make more sense for them to just do a fly/drive by with the heaviest weapons available (as per early SAS), but then you wouldn't have a TT game.
Nor would you really have a story, for that matter, as combat situations would last mere minutes, and have many months between deployment, even on the same planet (as per modern Spec Ops).

As per the flyby idea. No. If your enemy has anti-aircraft weapons you're flying your men into a killzone, ground battles are often the only choice. Look at Siege of Vraks for an example.

Well, anything that works as a quick destructive assault would do. It's not necessary to fight a pitched battle all the time. More specialized missions would be the SM's forte, such as "Blow up this void shield generator", or "Kill this one target", or "Hit and Run on this airbase". Smash the enemy quickly, and have the basic troopers do the holding-the-line/cleanup.

But SM's wouldn't work in the 40k TT as that kind of force, as they'd just be a bigger and meaner Militarum Tempestus. And as we all know, the BL books are supposed to be a supporting product to the miniatures line, and thus end up trying to get a SM force in a pitched battle/last stand (with many exceptions, admittedly).

But this is, fluff-wise, how Space Marines normally fight. Quick surgical strikes on the most vulnerable / important targets. They get in fast, they annihilate their primary target, they destroy everything else they can without jeopardizing themselves, and then they get out before the enemy can bring their bulk to bear. There are exceptions, but those are supposed to be when their hand is forced. The enemy is launching an all-out assault on something they MUST defend, this specific thing MUST be destroyed / die, we are so trapped in this Space Hulk and absolutely MUSt press on further.

Granted, this isn't what most of the stories are about. The stories are usually about the pitched battles and last stands.. But that's because they're more interesting even if they're not supposed to be the norm. Lets face it, reading about how a strong force of marine were dropped into a lightly defended zone and launched a sneak-attack so precise the enemy barely got a shot off just isn't great to read over-and-over again.