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So, yeah. Pretty much curious what people think about the order of marine roles an aspirant has.
For those who don't know:

- Of course, they start as scouts.
- Then become Devastators.
- Then Assault Marines.
- Finally Tactical.

 SkavenLord wrote:
So, yeah. Pretty much curious what people think about the order of marine roles an aspirant has.
For those who don't know:

- Of course, they start as scouts.
- Then become Devastators.
- Then Assault Marines.
- Finally Tactical.

Yes the idea of going into two different specialist roles before becoming a base line troop is backwards. It should go scout, tactical then depending on what that particular marine excels in moving to devastator or assault. I think it was like this before the 5th edition SM codex, but I could be mistaken.

Thing is, the Tactical Marine is not "base-line" role, technically. The Scout would be closest thing to the "standard" role.

Tactical Marines are the Space Marine equivalent to a Navy SEAL. Tactical Marines are supposed to be a master at every aspect of combat.

It seems backwards, but only when you think of Space Marines as a conventional army. They aren't, really. They're a special forces unit.

The order is correct.

A tactical marine isn't the "base" where everything grows from. A tac marine is the pinnacle. He is able to do anything because he's already done everything.

Devs and assault marines are both only capable of filling one kind of battlefield role, and in an army devoted to versatility, that's a liability, not an asset. Devs are marines that have gone through the basic regimen of training (scouts), and then, on top of that, only know how to shoot heavy weapons. Assault marines evolve past that to include the speed and close combat ability lacking from someone sitting far in the backfield and plinking.

It's only once they have the basic training, and the heavy and special weapons training, and the mobility and hand to hand training that they are then allowed to become tac marines - space marines that are fully competent at everything.

If they were then to decide to specialize themselves, they'd only make themselves a little bit stronger in one thing while making themselves weaker in a LOT of other things. It would be taking a step backwards.

I think it's a very cool idea, having the Tactical marines be the masters of every aspect, but oh man does it not translate on the tabletop. Assuming you wanted to reflect this in the rules, maybe you could go about it thusly:

Obviously points costs should be adjusted depending on the magnitude of the change.

Drop the toughness of Scouts to represent the fact that they haven't received all of their implants yet. This is mostly to show improvement in the next rank.

Drop the BS and WS of Devastators, as they haven't had their combat training yet and are still having their ranged training. Make the signum grant BS4, but make it work for two marines to make it a bit more useful.

Drop the WS of Assault Marines, as they're still in the middle of combat training. Let them take cheaper plasma pistols, for god's sake (this isn't particularly relevant to this change, apart from them needing a slight ranged buff, but more my irritation that GW consistently overvalues plasma pistols ridiculously).

Give Tacticals (and sergeants, and all veterans/HQs) a CCW so that they can actually fight competently in melee.

That's some pretty radical changes, and would require significant point drops for all the lower ranks. Alternately:

Assault Marines gain BS5 (and the plasma pistol thing, why not).

Tacticals (again plus sergeants and vets) get BS5, WS5, and a CCW.

How exactly does the concept not translate over to the TT?

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Thing is, the Tactical Marine is not "base-line" role, technically. The Scout would be closest thing to the "standard" role.

Tactical Marines are the Space Marine equivalent to a Navy SEAL. Tactical Marines are supposed to be a master at every aspect of combat.

It seems backwards, but only when you think of Space Marines as a conventional army. They aren't, really. They're a special forces unit.

Scouts, as a baseline, are trained extensively in all forms of combat. Hand to hand, heavy weapons, bolters, snipers, ranged support, infiltration, ect ect.

It used to go scout > tactical > whatever they specialized in, and that made more sense. When you get down to the nuts and bolts, Tactical Marines are basically just scouts with better armor and more training. It'd make sense to send a Scout who 'passed' on up to join a tac squad because he'd be doing the same stuff, just with better gear. Observe him for quite a few years, see what he specializes in, then send him off.

Taking a soldier from playing all battlefield roles, to specializing in one (and then the complete anti-thesis of that), only to send them back to "versatile and do everything" at the end makes 0 sense.

It makes sense. In fact that's how we organize our own real-world Special Forces groups. many of them start off as a grunt in the army/marines what-have-you learning the basics, they rise through the ranks specializing in a variety of other roles, then they get recruited into the special forces group where they're expected to master everything they've learned previously and to then learn more advanced tactics.

It does make sense in my one opinion. You can change the order by moving assault training, before devastator training. The idea is that every Space Marine can change position in the army and be has competent then the one he replaced. Due to the small number of Space Marines, this is very important to minimise casualty effect. It's well represented in the game by all Space Marine having 4 of WS and BS. This makes much more sense than let say a Banshee who specialise in killing things with a power sword at the exclusion of every thing else,but breething having the exact same stats line (they should have WS 5 and BS 3, but thats another debate and that would be clearly OP).

I always thought it was-

Scout > Reserve Company Devastators > Reserve Company Assault > Battle Company Tactical >(if they're extremely good at the role) Battle Company Devastators OR Battle Company Assault.

Space Wolves are backwards. Something like Assault marine->Tactical then Scout if you have the aptitude and Dev if you live long enough a grow sharp teeth and a manly face bear.

But yes, it would work in a different order I'm sure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Farseer Anath'lan wrote:
Space Wolves are backwards. Something like Assault marine->Tactical then Scout if you have the aptitude and Dev if you live long enough to grow sharp teeth and a manly face bear.

But yes, it would work in a different order I'm sure.

i think the overall idea is to slowly acclimatize to the perils of the battlefield.
scouts - mainly dealing with small, unprepared enemies. minor casualties.
devs - partially removed from the main battlefield, but still a part of heavy combat. minor casualties.
assault - dealing with the enemies heavy weapons, used to zerg particular areas with friendlies. moderate casualties.
tactical - claims objectives, meets the main enemy force head on. heavy casualties.

etither way, its all based on the ridiculous 1000 man chapter concept.

Dev comes after Scout so the Marines have time to adjust to wearing full armor as well as first-hand experience with tactically applying needed firepower to a specific target.

Assault comes next once they've mastered wearing their armor, at which point they get to learn about mobility, initiative, and offensive strikes.

Once they've learned both they get to be Tactical Marines, who can do precision fire support and rapid point pushes.

 Bludbaff wrote:
I think it's a very cool idea, having the Tactical marines be the masters of every aspect, but oh man does it not translate on the tabletop. Assuming you wanted to reflect this in the rules, maybe you could go about it thusly:

Obviously points costs should be adjusted depending on the magnitude of the change.

Drop the toughness of Scouts to represent the fact that they haven't received all of their implants yet. This is mostly to show improvement in the next rank.

Depending on their training, some scouts could be near the end of their training and have received enough implants such as muscle building, bone reinforcement, Larraman's Organ (instant blood clot) and pain suppression to receive T4

Drop the BS and WS of Devastators, as they haven't had their combat training yet and are still having their ranged training. Make the signum grant BS4, but make it work for two marines to make it a bit more useful.

Some Devastators choose to return to the Devs after Assault Marine training after realising they prefer the big boom. Sometimes Tactical Marines are used to reinforce an understrength squad (but rarely the reverse), or again, some Devs could be at the end of the training. Most new guys only do the Bolters, covering fire for the heavy guns and target selection.
There is a small argument for Devs having WS3 but a very small one. The improved BS has no justification. Even a guy fighting for the first time in PA has the additional targeting equipment granted by PA vs Scout armour.

Drop the WS of Assault Marines, as they're still in the middle of combat training. Let them take cheaper plasma pistols, for god's sake (this isn't particularly relevant to this change, apart from them needing a slight ranged buff, but more my irritation that GW consistently overvalues plasma pistols ridiculously).

Again, Assault Marines could be veterans who have fought for half a century and enjoys melee and is too inflexible for a Tac Squad. he may be a Tac Marine reinforcing the squad. He could be a great fighter. He could have done his melee training as a scout where his chapter sent him in with combat blades and pistols to sneak attack the enemy.

Give Tacticals (and sergeants, and all veterans/HQs) a CCW so that they can actually fight competently in melee.

Its for balance purposes. The idea isn't that they are great melee fighters, just that their time as Assault Marines gives them (in fluff) the competence to hold their own against anything short of dedicated melee/MEQ killers like Holwing Banshees or Incubi for example

That's some pretty radical changes, and would require significant point drops for all the lower ranks. Alternately:

Assault Marines gain BS5 (and the plasma pistol thing, why not).

Tacticals (again plus sergeants and vets) get BS5, WS5, and a CCW.

No.

 Lord-Captain Cepinari wrote:
Dev comes after Scout so the Marines have time to adjust to wearing full armor as well as first-hand experience with tactically applying needed firepower to a specific target.

Assault comes next once they've mastered wearing their armor, at which point they get to learn about mobility, initiative, and offensive strikes.

Once they've learned both they get to be Tactical Marines, who can do precision fire support and rapid point pushes.

Also, aren't people forgetting the Devastators and Assault Marines from battle companies? I'm pretty sure those guys were devs and assaults from Reserve Companies that were so good that they either were promoted into a battle company as a dev/tac or they were tacs with a record as an excellent assault/dev and thus were moved to a new squad.

Farseer Anath'lan wrote:
Space Wolves are backwards. Something like Assault marine->Tactical then Scout if you have the aptitude and Dev if you live long enough a grow sharp teeth and a manly face bear.

But yes, it would work in a different order I'm sure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Farseer Anath'lan wrote:
Space Wolves are backwards. Something like Assault marine->Tactical then Scout if you have the aptitude and Dev if you live long enough to grow sharp teeth and a manly face bear.

But yes, it would work in a different order I'm sure.

Yeah, this is it. They do Assault Marine first because they are bloodthirsty and hungry for glory. Not only does this allow this allow they what they like, but it weeds out the weaklings quickly. These guys are also the only ones foolish enough to use jump packs or bikes. There is a reason they are called Blood Claws, they like to use them.

Grey Hunters are more patient, wise and experienced. They know the benefit to tactics other than "Charge!!!!," "For the All-Father and Russ!" and "Gimme my stinkin' ale you dirty fething greenskin b*****s!!!"

Scouts are those who choose the path, and are quiet, patient and smart enough. Try putting a new recruit from Fenris in a stealth squad and you end up with high casualties and a botched job as they spring out screaming one of the battle-cries listed above.

Long Fangs are veterans with the discipline, fire support and experience to be entrusted with a heavy weapon and not spray and pray.

Wolf Guard are the Great Company Wolf Lord's closest friends, his blood brothers. These men sit at his table and drink with him, they would die for each other. They have the experience and respect amongst the Company to lead other units, even enough to call the Blood Claws into line (but not that Lukas!).

The Wolf Guard battle leaders are the most courageous, heroic and respected of the company, the Wolf Lord's successor.

Wolf Lords- well, like the king of the company, in the King Arthur/Game of Thrones/typical medieval fantasy sense.

Don't forget that the Blood Angels follow a different path. After completion of their Scout time, each Legionnaire becomes an Assault Marine. After a period of time in an assault squad, those with the best grip on The Red Thirst become Devastators, and the rest go on to become Tactical Marines.

As was mentioned above, I assumed a marine moved up through the ranks from 10th, up to 9th, then 8th, 6th or 7th. Then specialisation takes place. Those who excel at combat are transferred to the Assault squads of thr battle companies, those with great ranged discipline become Devastator squad members, and many remain as Tactical squads.
Of course, a few will always just stay in a certain role, being particularly brilliant at it.

Remember also that they're probably first posted to the devastator squads as meatshields. The new space marines first serve as those 5 guys you can't give heavy weapons too and essentially are 5 extra wounds for the heavy weapons.

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
Remember also that they're probably first posted to the devastator squads as meatshields. The new space marines first serve as those 5 guys you can't give heavy weapons too and essentially are 5 extra wounds for the heavy weapons.

Marines are never used as meatshields. Scouts aren't even used as meatshields. Even the black templars don't use their neophytes as meatshields. Those 5 guys learn the tricks of the trade and how to work their new bodies and armour, as well as covering fire, CC defence and calling targets.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Bludbaff wrote:
I think it's a very cool idea, having the Tactical marines be the masters of every aspect, but oh man does it not translate on the tabletop. Assuming you wanted to reflect this in the rules, maybe you could go about it thusly:

Obviously points costs should be adjusted depending on the magnitude of the change.

Drop the toughness of Scouts to represent the fact that they haven't received all of their implants yet. This is mostly to show improvement in the next rank.

Depending on their training, some scouts could be near the end of their training and have received enough implants such as muscle building, bone reinforcement, Larraman's Organ (instant blood clot) and pain suppression to receive T4

Drop the BS and WS of Devastators, as they haven't had their combat training yet and are still having their ranged training. Make the signum grant BS4, but make it work for two marines to make it a bit more useful.

Some Devastators choose to return to the Devs after Assault Marine training after realising they prefer the big boom. Sometimes Tactical Marines are used to reinforce an understrength squad (but rarely the reverse), or again, some Devs could be at the end of the training. Most new guys only do the Bolters, covering fire for the heavy guns and target selection.
There is a small argument for Devs having WS3 but a very small one. The improved BS has no justification. Even a guy fighting for the first time in PA has the additional targeting equipment granted by PA vs Scout armour.

Drop the WS of Assault Marines, as they're still in the middle of combat training. Let them take cheaper plasma pistols, for god's sake (this isn't particularly relevant to this change, apart from them needing a slight ranged buff, but more my irritation that GW consistently overvalues plasma pistols ridiculously).

Again, Assault Marines could be veterans who have fought for half a century and enjoys melee and is too inflexible for a Tac Squad. he may be a Tac Marine reinforcing the squad. He could be a great fighter. He could have done his melee training as a scout where his chapter sent him in with combat blades and pistols to sneak attack the enemy.

Give Tacticals (and sergeants, and all veterans/HQs) a CCW so that they can actually fight competently in melee.

Its for balance purposes. The idea isn't that they are great melee fighters, just that their time as Assault Marines gives them (in fluff) the competence to hold their own against anything short of dedicated melee/MEQ killers like Holwing Banshees or Incubi for example

That's some pretty radical changes, and would require significant point drops for all the lower ranks. Alternately:

Assault Marines gain BS5 (and the plasma pistol thing, why not).

Tacticals (again plus sergeants and vets) get BS5, WS5, and a CCW.

No.

This pretty much covers it. Often, members of Battle Company Assault and Devastator squads are those who have shown particular proficiency in those areas and so are best suited to those roles. It allows them to pass expereince on to the new members while also ensuring the squad's effectiveness doesn't drop due to being flooded with less experienced individuals.

The other thing to bear in mind with Tactical Squads is that, because of their training, if the Lascannon gunner is killed/taken out, any other member of the squad has the Devastator training to pick up the gun and keep firing away. If the enemy get too close, they all know how to draw their knives or chainswords and get stuck in without being a liability.

The reason they're all the same stat-wise is a limitation of the 1-10 system for stats, there's just not enough discrete variables within that to represent the difference in accuracy between a new blood Devastator and a 200-year-veteran Sternguard Sergeant, when the same system has to represent anything from a grot to a manifestation of the Blood God.

Honestly it's pretty apparent that it varies heavily by chapter. In my personal created chapters (or remnants of) they hate melee combat because it causes you to lose the flexibility offered by ranged combat. In melee it is far to easy, especially against blob armies such as Orks or Tyranids. For the melee fighters to become encircled and then slaughtered. So they practice alot of close range bolter drills, lots of fire and maneuver, as well as lots of accuracy firing. Of course this is all fluffy but you will find I have no melee units in my army. (Assault Marines, etc) Sure it aint competitive but I play 40k for the fluff not the WAAC.

Didn't it say somewhere the reasons why they did some of that?

Scouts are pre black carapace, so no power armour
then they go to devastators when they have the black carapace, when they get used to the power armour and stuff


Course that can all be bs, who knows

I like the space wolves' tactic, baptism by fire, and if you live, you're smarter for it!

 Deadshot wrote:
Marines are never used as meatshields. Scouts aren't even used as meatshields. Even the black templars don't use their neophytes as meatshields. Those 5 guys learn the tricks of the trade and how to work their new bodies and armour, as well as covering fire, CC defence and calling targets.

This. Or at least a smart Chapter like the Ultramarines wouldn't use their precious recruits as meat shields. But different Chapters do things in different ways. The Blood Angels for example are so fond of jump packs and close combat that they never have trouble keeping the Assault squads full - every single BA marine on campaign will volunter to fill up the Assault squad. They start the job as a Codex Chapter but by the end only the Assault squads will be at full power.

And the Space Wolves are even weirder... their scouts aren't the newbies, they're old anti-social wolves who would rather be behind enemy lines killing stuff than raising a keg with their battle-brothers. The loners and misfits sent out to do mischief.

Kiwidru wrote:i think the overall idea is to slowly acclimatize to the perils of the battlefield.
scouts - mainly dealing with small, unprepared enemies. minor casualties.
devs - partially removed from the main battlefield, but still a part of heavy combat. minor casualties.
assault - dealing with the enemies heavy weapons, used to zerg particular areas with friendlies. moderate casualties.
tactical - claims objectives, meets the main enemy force head on. heavy casualties.

etither way, its all based on the ridiculous 1000 man chapter concept.

Wyzilla wrote:

 Lord-Captain Cepinari wrote:
Dev comes after Scout so the Marines have time to adjust to wearing full armor as well as first-hand experience with tactically applying needed firepower to a specific target.

Assault comes next once they've mastered wearing their armor, at which point they get to learn about mobility, initiative, and offensive strikes.

Once they've learned both they get to be Tactical Marines, who can do precision fire support and rapid point pushes.

Also, aren't people forgetting the Devastators and Assault Marines from battle companies? I'm pretty sure those guys were devs and assaults from Reserve Companies that were so good that they either were promoted into a battle company as a dev/tac or they were tacs with a record as an excellent assault/dev and thus were moved to a new squad.

See, more people should think of this.