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Okay, as the 7th came out I kind of lost interest in this game. Partly because of it, but mostly because of other reasons. This game just hasn't felt the same for a while now, not sure why.
However, many of my friends still play this and the 7th actually seems pretty sweet (only played one game of it).

So I have decided that in autumn I will start an entirely new project to keep my interests up. I will build a new army and put some money and time on it.
I somehow feel that DA would be a fine army for that. I like their looks and fluff. And since this is only a small-ish project (and because my main army is BA) I truly don't mind them being a bit lame rules-wise.
Of course, if you have another suggestion feel free to share, altough I do believe that I have already tought about pretty much everything.

So, to be more specific I would like to build an army including (but not limited to) Ravenwing.
Low model count and speed would be good and I prefer not to use the DW.

Basically:

* Is it worth it to do a Ravenwing army without making them troops? Unbound or min amount of Scouts/Tacticals?
* Librarians worth it? How about without bike?
* Any named characters worth it?
* I intend to start with a 1000 point army and build up to 1500 and maybe (maybe) 1850-2000 later. Any suggestions?

I appreciate all answers. Thank you!

EDIT: some grammar-fails.

If you're not making your Ravenwing troops, it's worth concentrating on Black Knights and/or Ravenwing Command Squads, rather than the regular bikes.

Librarians are well worth it for cheapness, psychic powers, and the ability to take a Power Field Generator, with or without a bike. If taking them without a bike, I'd consider putting one with a group of Devastators, and getting some other firepower nearby to benefit from the PFG's invulnerable save (maybe a Razorback and a Whirlwind). With a bike, run them with a big Black Knights or Ravenwing Command Squad unit.

At 1000 points I personally would not bother with a named character, but both of the characters who can make Ravenwing troops (Azrael and Sammael) will start to become viable as you make your army bigger.

Ravenwing as non-troops is fine, moreso now that everything is scoring. They have the speed and mobility to be dangerous aggressive tools and rack up a lot of points in Malestrom missions.

Agreed with the Black Knights. Don't build a mega-deathstar of them, but a squad or two of 1500 is very solid.

A Librarian is the cheapest HQ you're going to get, and offers some good utility, no real worries there. I'd avoid the characters, now that everything's scoring they lose a little of their allure, even if they do offer OS.

Consider some Land Speeder squadrons with Typhoon missiles to give you a little long range firepower.

Thanks for the input!

How do I handle AA with DA? Is quad-gun the only way to go?

And so far I'm thinking about getting:

Couple of Tactical Squads
Librarian
Black Knights
Ravenwing Squad
Some HS tank like Predator


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And a quick question:
I've heard that Company Masters are pretty much awful. Why is that so? I would love to use my model from DV

Company Masters are mostly just overpriced for what they bring to the table (especially compared to the Librarian), and don't have access to quite such cool toys as the SM equivalents do. I converted my DV one to have the relic mace from the DA codex, but the fact that I can't remember the name of said mace shows you how often I've actually used him... never.

Company Masters are all right, in that you get a SM Captain statline and a decent number of weapon options. I often run one with Artificer, a Power Sword and a combi-plasma, just to get the awesome DV model into action, and he does ok. Never performs wonders, sometimes nothing, but can make a neat HQ to add a bit of punch to a squad. (His finest hour was gunning down an Eldar Avatar on Overwatch with the combi)

For AA, Quad gun is probably the best option you're getting without allies.

Or (FW) Mortis, or Contemptor Mortis, for AA. If You're running Black Knights, maybe try using the Command squad for a 5 man group. Throwing a small group of Deathwing in there can help with target saturation. I know that Company Vets aren't exactly the most popular, but they do make a good throw away suicide unit, and are cheap enough to be nasty. Provided any survive, they can also make a decent showing of themselves in melee.

My $0.02, take it as you wish.

Dark Angel's best AA option is the Mortis Dread. For less than 150 points you get two twin linked interceptor skyfire lascannons.

Sweet. I might look at it, altough I prefer not to use FW stuff.

So, providing I actually use Company Master, how do I do it?
With Tacticals? In a Land Raider? None of the options seem good.

And am I missing something with the Moster Slayer of Caliban? Why on earth would someone pay 45 points for a Power Sword with small chance for ID?

I think if I were to take one (bearing in mind this is theoryhammer as he has sat on my shelf so far...) I would seriously consider the Mace of Redemption -- expensive but *very* nice. I would very probably get him a jump pack so he could keep up with bikes and generally jump in to assist whatever unit needed it in CC -- it's a relatively small investment for a big increase in flexibility. I would consider artificer armour and/or storm shield and/or a combi-weapon if I had spare points, but they'd be optional.

On the topic of building a small Dark Angel army, how viable are Land Speeders and Dreadnoughts this edition? I'm returning from over a year without playing.

Dreads are a little better than they were in 6th, thanks to the general improvement in survivability of vehicles, and the nerf to Smash from monstrous creatures. I am still not certain how best to use them in a DA army, but drop-podding Multimelta and Heavy Flamer, perhaps Venerable, can definitely work, especially if you have a lot of other T1 threats getting in your opponent's face.

I'll try to brief and answer most of your questions with my own opinions.

Troops and Special Characters: You can't talk about troops without first talking about the special characters. Most of them suck, but they do what they need to. Belial is an overpriced terminator sergeant, but he offers a no scatter deep strike and terminator troops. Sammael is probably the best of them as he can now join other units and he carries the only AP2 CC weapon in the book. Too bad hes S4. He also gives you ravenwing troops which is arguably the best wing of dark angels. Azrael unlocks both but costs as much as a land raider and is pretty useless outside of imperial guard blobs. The other characters are terrible and can be ignored.

If you don't use a special character I would recommend the librarian on a bike. They are cheap, versatile, and can fit any army. If you want a CC beast, the interrogator chaplain is great. I would ignore scouts since we don't get transports for them and sniper rifles are garbage now. Tacticals in rhinos are a lot better now. You get 3 objective secured units with stubburn for a little over 200 points. It's not bad.

Dreads: If you don't want to use forgeworld, (I don't either), then dreads are not going to be very useful for you. You can run a dual auto cannon now and it's not too bad. Running heavy flamer with weapon of choice and a drop pod is the other alternative and from my experience it lands, fry's a unit, then dies to returning fire. Deathwing vehicle while nice doesn't save it from the fact that dreads get glanced out easily in this edition. Dark Angels don't have AV13 dreads so I'd put my points somewhere else.

Company Masters: Company masters are effectively useless. Everything they can bring to the table can be done by another HQ better. He has no special wargear options to draw from and our Relics are rather bad. The one you mentioned, Slayer of Caliban, is a great example.

Land Speeders: Land speeders are awesome. They are cheap, plenty of options, and they deep strike. You can go melta/melta and slag a tank, heavy flamer/heavy flamer and fry a unit, or heavy bolter/cyclone and pop light troops/transports all game. If you're not using Sammael to unlock bike troops then they tend to compete with your bikes though.

Your ideal list seems okay for casual games. Librarian on a bike with command squad, tacticals in rhinos, ravenwing bikes all great together. Predators are a tough choice and really depends on how much range firepower you are going up against. Whirlwinds are cheaper and provide great infantry support. Devastators cost a little more but bring more dakka. If you need the protection of an AV13 hull though you can do dakka preds with heavy bolters and auto cannons cheaply. Then again you may need the heavy firepower of tri-laz cannons.

Over all at 1000 points you may have trouble since it's hard to fit in all the ravenwing units in at that level and still have a respectable model count. At 1500 and 1850 it will get easier, but you're playing a tier 3 book at best and will always be playing uphill. Have fun with it.

Thank you for the detailed answer!

Atm I'm already trying to get the basic part of my army together.
I'm going to use my old BA bikes that never see the table, so added together I have 8 bikes (2 Sgt's, 3 Plasma Guns) and a Librarian on a bike.
I also have the Dark Vengeance Tactical squad and an unpainted Darkshroud (old gift from a friend).

After I add Snipah Scouts, a Rhino and some updrgades, this should be ~750 points. What should I add to my first 1000 point list?

PS, is the Darkshroud worth it?

Darkshroud is worth thinking about if you want to use a lot of bikes or speeders, I think, as it makes their jinks even more effective.

Azrael has his uses. What he excels at is actually supporting tactical squads, while making your one unit of bikes and one unit of termies scoring. He's a good all-rounder. You want him with 3-4 squads of tactical troops, 1 of termie troops and 1 of bike troops. He joins the leading squad of tacticals to give them 4++. The three squads behind get 5+ cover from intervening troops. A small command squad in a Rhino hides nearby, preferably behind LOS-blocking terrain, and gives everyone Salvo with a banner. You have 30 or 40 resilient (thanks to Azrael, who can join the next squad behind if the first squad starts to look weak) troops shooting 4 bolter shots each out to 24", as long as you don't move; you can deny a lot of the table that way, though. And you have bikes and termies to nip out and take more distant objectives. (Idea borrowed from a chap at B&C, but I've used it in competitive play and found it very effective.)

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
Darkshroud is worth thinking about if you want to use a lot of bikes or speeders, I think, as it makes their jinks even more effective.

Azrael has his uses. What he excels at is actually supporting tactical squads, while making your one unit of bikes and one unit of termies scoring. He's a good all-rounder. You want him with 3-4 squads of tactical troops, 1 of termie troops and 1 of bike troops. He joins the leading squad of tacticals to give them 4++. The three squads behind get 5+ cover from intervening troops. A small command squad in a Rhino hides nearby, preferably behind LOS-blocking terrain, and gives everyone Salvo with a banner. You have 30 or 40 resilient (thanks to Azrael, who can join the next squad behind if the first squad starts to look weak) troops shooting 4 bolter shots each out to 24", as long as you don't move; you can deny a lot of the table that way, though. And you have bikes and termies to nip out and take more distant objectives. (Idea borrowed from a chap at B&C, but I've used it in competitive play and found it very effective.)

The problem with this strategy is the same problem that ravenwing dakka banner lists have, your entire army is sitting in one place. Your effective damage drops quick as soon as you spread out which you will have to do now in 7th. MSU is coming back strong and the bunker lists are going to have trouble. Azrael also costs too much to waste sitting around protecting a squad he costs more than. He is just not an effective commander for 7th unless you're running a blob or some other unit that can truly benefit from his 4++. If he was cheaper I would totally agree with how good he could be, but everything in this dam book is overpriced.

The price is definitely too high. But 4 x 10-man squads can sit still, get Salvo, and cover some objectives, as well as denying some more with their shooting; and you have Termies to drop on another objective and bikes to take another... Still think it can work. I'm not saying it's the most effective DA tactic, but it's probably the most effective way to use Greenwing.

Okay, my first idea for a 1000 point list:

Librarian, Bike, lvl2 - 120p

10x Tactical Marines - 225p
- Plasma Gun, Cannon & combi
- Veteran uprgade, Rhino

5x Tactical Marines - 85p
- Plasma Cannon
--> they are hiding behind an ADL+Quad-gun - 100p

4x Ravenwing Bikes - 152p
- Veteran, meltabombs
- 2x Plasma Guns

4x Ravenwing Bikes - 152p
- Veteran, meltabombs
- 2x Plasma Guns

Darkshroud with Assault Cannon - 100p

So these are all stuff I own, only have to paint/repaint some of them if I will use them.
Besides these I have a single Apotechary on a bike and two Ravenwing bikers unassembled.
My plan is to buy another box and use a squad of five Black Knights.

I realise that some of these uprgades are hardly worth it (like Assault Cannon on a vehicle that is meant to move around quickly and relies on the jink),
but I had to do some fillers because I don't have that much stuff...

Opinions?