'Gay cake' row could end up in court.

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**Kilkrazy**

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28221219

TL/DR A gay person commissioned a cake with a gay slogan from a Christian run bakery. The bakery refused to bake it. They could face a discrimination case.

I can't help thinking it would have been easier to go to a non-Christian baker.

To look at the other side of things, would a baker go to Hell for putting a gay slogan on a cake? Does God really care so much about it?

**conker249**

To me it seems the activist went there in particular to start trouble.

**kronk**

conker249 wrote:
To me it seems the activist went there in particular to start trouble.

Pretty much.

**Medium of Death**

Can you operate a Christian Bakery?

Nothing really screams "Christian" about their business statements. Not that it should matter.

Who we are

Ashers began with a vault of family recipes. For the past 20 years we’ve been refining and perfecting these recipes, to get them just the way you like them.

What we do

We love to travel and we pick up some great ideas along the way – from the traditional bakeries in the south of France to the cupcake shops in Vancouver. Then we bring our ideas back and mix them up in the bakery, so there’s always something new for you to try.

We make our breads, buns and cakes fresh every morning. Then we put them in our trusty fleet of vans and send them around the countryside to your local shops. So you can trust us when we say, they’re fresh.

**Kilkrazy**

You can certainly operate a Jewish bakery specialising in chollah and bagels.

**Medium of Death**

Perhaps a Christian bakery can break a single loaf to feed thousands. It must help their operating costs.

I don't think anybody should be able to refuse business based on their religious beliefs. Beyond perhaps the use of ingredients. So if I went into a Religious caterer and tried to specifically order food made from ingredients that they wouldn't stock then I'd have no leg to stand on. I have a feeling that's already covered though.

**Frazzled**

Kilkrazy wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28221219

TL/DR A gay person commissioned a cake with a gay slogan from a Christian run bakery. The bakery refused to bake it. They could face a discrimination case.

I can't help thinking it would have been easier to go to a non-Christian baker.

To look at the other side of things, would a baker go to Hell for putting a gay slogan on a cake? Does God really care so much about it?

Its an intentional attack, successfully done in the US. Welcome to the culture wars Great Britain and remember who started it.

If I had an issue, if it were me I'd bake the cake then give the money to a charity of my choice. If you're in business to make money, make money and let others deal with drama.

**DarkTraveler777**

Are there any laws in the UK or Northern Ireland that prevent businesses from discriminating against customers for sexual orientation?

And a fuller article than the one Killkrazy posted: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-28206581

A Christian-run bakery that refused a customer's request to make a cake with a slogan supporting gay marriage could face a discrimination case in court.

Ashers Baking Company declined an order from a gay rights activist, asking for cake featuring the Sesame Street puppets, Bert and Ernie.

The customer also wanted the cake to feature the logo of a Belfast-based campaign group called "Queerspace".

The County Antrim firm could face legal action from the Equality Commission.

The watchdog confirmed it is assisting the customer whose order was refused and has written to the baking company on his behalf.

The cake was ordered for a civic event in Bangor Castle Town Hall, County Down, to mark International Day Against Homophobia and Transphobia.

Christian beliefs
The bakery, which was founded in Newtownabbey in 1992, is run by the McArthur family.

The directors, who are Christians, operate six shops in Northern Ireland and employ 62 people.

The firm's 24-year-old general manager, Daniel McArthur, said marriage in Northern Ireland "still is defined as being a union between one man and one woman" and said his company was taking "a stand".

The customer placed the order in Ashers' Belfast branch a number of weeks ago, and it was then passed to their head office.

In an online statement, Mr McArthur said: "The directors and myself looked at it and considered it and thought that this order was at odds with our beliefs.

"It certainly was at odds with what the Bible teaches, and on the following Monday we rang the customer to let him know that we couldn't take his order."

'Discriminated'
Mr McArthur added that his firm offered the customer a full refund, which was collected shortly after the order was refused.

"We thought that was the end of it, but approximately six weeks later we received a letter from the Equality Commission. The Equality Commission's letter said that we had discriminated against the customer on the grounds of his sexual orientation.

"It asked us to propose how we would recompense the customer for this discrimination. It also said it would pursue legal proceedings if we didn't respond within a seven-day time period," Mr McArthur said.

Legal assistance
The general manager said he was "very surprised" by the watchdog's letter and his firm asked the Christian Institute for advice on how to deal with the case.

The institute is supporting the bakery's stance and is now providing legal assistance.

Mr McArthur said: "I feel if we don't take a stand on this here case, then how can we stand up against it, further down the line?"

The general manager added that it was not the first time his company had refused customers' cake orders.

"In the past, we've declined several orders which have contained pornographic images and offensive, foul language."

Mr McArthur added: "I would like the outcome of this to be that, any Christians running a business could be allowed to follow their Christian beliefs and principles in the day-to-day running of their business and that they are allowed to make decisions based on that."

'Unlawful discrimination'
However, Alliance councillor Andrew Muir - who hosted the civic event for which the cake was ordered - said he fully supported the action taken against the bakery.

"Businesses should not be able to pick and choose who they serve," Mr Muir said.

"There would not be any debate if the cake had depicted an anti-racism or anti-ageism slogan, nor should it require intervention from the Equality Commission for this cake for Anti-Homophobia Day.

"It is ridiculous for this bakery to suggest that they would have to endorse the campaign."

The councillor, who hosted the event during his term as mayor of North Down, said another bakery in Bangor stepped in and accepted the cake order.

But Mr Muir added: "For Northern Ireland to prosper and overcome our divisions we need a new society where businesses are willing to cater for all, regardless of religious views, political opinion, disability, race, age, sexual orientation, marital status, gender and other backgrounds."

Gavin Boyd, a gay rights campaigner with the Rainbow Project in Northern Ireland, also supported the customer's discrimination complaint.

"It is because of sexual orientation that the company decided not to print this," Mr Boyd told BBC Radio Ulster.

"The law is really clear. You cannot pick and choose which sides of the law apply to you.

"If you are a company that is trading out there in the market place and someone comes to you, you can't pick and choose whether or not to fulfil that order based on their sexual orientation," Mr Boyd added.

'Respected'
But the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) said the Equality Commission had overstepped the mark and the complaint highlighted the need for a "conscience clause" to protect Christians and others who have deeply held beliefs.

DUP MP Nigel Dodds said: "The case re-opens the debate about how exactly religious belief is respected within the United Kingdom and the need for someone's conscience to be protected whilst ensuring that discrimination does not occur."

In a statement, the watchdog said: "The Equality Commission for Northern Ireland provides advice and can provide assistance to people who complain to us that they have suffered unlawful discrimination.

"In this case the commission has granted assistance to the complainant, and has written to the company concerned on his behalf.

"The commission will consider any response before taking further action."

Northern Ireland is now the only part of the UK which has not passed a law to introduce same-sex marriage.

**easysauce**

conker249 wrote:
To me it seems the activist went there in particular to start trouble.

yup pretty much,

you dont walk into a gay cupcake place and ask for a "god hates gays" cake and expect to be able to force the baker to make it.

right to refuse service on any grounds, even stupid bigoted, outdated modes of thinking reasons count.

remember, its not freedom unless its freedom to do some things you might feel are personally distasteful.

gays may not like christians beliefs, and christians may not like gays' beliefs, neither group has to bow to the others beliefs, and neither has to make celebratory cakes of the others beleifs is they do not want to.

**Kilkrazy**

DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Are there any laws in the UK or Northern Ireland that prevent businesses from discriminating against customers for sexual orientation?

...

**Medium of Death**

I guess this will come down to whether the image could be considered profane or grossly offensive as to warrant the refusal?

(Which I don't think it was/is)

You'd think that any astute business owner would have paid attention to that B&B case and just rolled with it.

**Ouze**

conker249 wrote:
To me it seems the activist went there in particular to start trouble.

It depends on how you define "trouble", I guess. I mean, would you argue these guys should have just gone to a different counter instead of "starting trouble"?

Frazzled wrote:
If I had an issue, if it were me I'd bake the cake then give the money to a charity of my choice. If you're in business to make money, make money and let others deal with drama.

Yes, I agree. I think that obtaining a business license that allows you to run a public facing establishment means just that, you serve the public.

**Aerethan**

Ouze wrote:
conker249 wrote:
To me it seems the activist went there in particular to start trouble.

It depends on how you define "trouble", I guess. I mean, would you argue these guys should have just gone to a different counter instead of "starting trouble"?

Frazzled wrote:
If I had an issue, if it were me I'd bake the cake then give the money to a charity of my choice. If you're in business to make money, make money and let others deal with drama.

Yes, I agree. I think that obtaining a business license that allows you to run a public facing establishment means just that, you serve the public.

But should someone be forced to create something at their work that goes against their personal beliefs? That to me is the issue. Are you suggesting that the same business be required to crank out KKK and Nazi cakes if someone came in requesting it?

It wasn't just a gay person ordering a cake. It was a person ordering a cake with an agenda message plastered all over it, and ANY business in the service industry should be allowed to decline business at their own discretion. Where do we draw the line with cakes? Are genitalia shaped cakes ok? What about cakes that depict some gory horror movie scene?

Why is a bakery not allowed to decline a job simply because they don't want to make that cake?

Next we'll see some hippies get ahold of the ACLU to sue businesses for requiring shoes and shirts.

And no, I'm not trying to compare the LGBT community to the KKK or Nazis or Hippies(God knows those three are in a league of their own).

It's a small business, not fricking Wal Mart. Buy your rainbow cake elsewhere.

The whole thing was set up intentionally by some asshat looking to start a fight, and that is why we should hate that person.

**Jihadin**

Or he/she thinks its cash cow time

**d-usa**

Is "gay cake" the liberal version of "open carry Texas"?

**Medium of Death**

What agenda message plastered all over it? Bert and Ernie holding hands with a local gay group's logo?

Also "I'm not comparing gay rights to those things so please excuse the few sentences above where I compare gay rights to those things."

I thought Christianity was about tolerance and turning the other cheek...

**Mr. Burning**

I saw this earlier.

If you run a publicly accessible business then you should serve, within normal bounds, anyone.

This seems significant.

The customer placed the order in Ashers' Belfast branch a number of weeks ago, and it was then passed to their head office.

Do other orders have to go up the chain of command? At first glance it appears that staff are aware of their owners position and therefore that of the business.

**Ouze**

Aerethan wrote:
Why is a bakery not allowed to decline a job simply because they don't want to make that cake?.

Because the stated rationale for non-service was religious-based discrimination based on an involuntary characteristic of a class of people, which is not permitted under the Equality Act 2006, a law duly passed by Parliament, and thus, the majority will of the people?

**DarkTraveler777**

Aerethan wrote:
Are you suggesting that the same business be required to crank out KKK and Nazi cakes if someone came in requesting it?

I don't think hate groups have the same protections as a minority group with an established history of discrimination. Are you suggesting those groups are the same?

Aerethan wrote:
Next we'll see some hippies get ahold of the ACLU to sue businesses for requiring shoes and shirts.

The "no shirt, no shoes" policies are for hygiene purposes and to protect businesses from customers injuring themselves while walking around barefooted, so not quite applicable here.

Aerethan wrote:
And no, I'm not trying to compare the LGBT community to the KKK or Nazis or Hippies(God knows those three are in a league of their own).

Seems like you are doing just that, but I have to ask, please show on the doll where the mean hippy abused you, because you have referenced hippies twice in a discussion not involving hippies. Methinks you were wronged by a hippy and have an ax to grind.

**Ouze**

DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Aerethan wrote:
Are you suggesting that the same business be required to crank out KKK and Nazi cakes if someone came in requesting it?
I don't think hate groups have the same protections as a minority group with an established history of discrimination. Are you suggesting those groups are the same?

Come, now. He explicitly said he wasn't equivocating them; let's make good faith arguments here.

On an unrelated note, my mom was a hippie and enjoyed this shirt I got her a way back

**Jihadin**

Lets not get mixed up with the standards of both countries on this matter

**-Shrike-**

I thought that businesses could just simply refuse to offer you service? Or do they need a specific reason to do so?

**DarkTraveler777**

Ouze wrote:
DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Aerethan wrote:
Are you suggesting that the same business be required to crank out KKK and Nazi cakes if someone came in requesting it?
I don't think hate groups have the same protections as a minority group with an established history of discrimination. Are you suggesting those groups are the same?

Come, now. He explicitly said he wasn't equivocating them; let's make good faith arguments here.

And then he did lumped them all together at the end of his post. Sorry, but the implication seemed clear. But, fair enough. I'll give Aerethan the benefit of the doubt.

**Medium of Death**

-Shrike- wrote:
I thought that businesses could just simply refuse to offer you service? Or do they need a specific reason to do so?

Wouldn't you ask why you were being refused service? I'd demand a reason to be honest.

**Desubot**

"We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone."

Does this have no meaning anymore?

Wouldn't shops be discriminating against nudest for posting no shirts no shoes no service? (though funny enough i guess you can go in pants-less?)

**Frazzled**

Ouze wrote:
Aerethan wrote:
Why is a bakery not allowed to decline a job simply because they don't want to make that cake?.

Because the stated rationale for non-service was religious-based discrimination based on an involuntary characteristic of a class of people, which is not permitted under the Equality Act 2006, a law duly passed by Parliament, and thus, the majority will of the people?

So if they had said instead "sorry we don't serve dickheads" they'd be fine...

**Ouze**

Frazzled wrote:
So if they had said instead "sorry we don't serve dickheads" they'd be fine...

Legally, I think so, yes; until it happens often enough to members of a protected class and no one else to warrant a suit or a complaint to the human rights council or what have you.

Desubot wrote:
"We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone."

Does this have no meaning anymore?

Store policy doesn't trump protection under the law, and never did. I can't refuse service to every Filipino that came into my store and say "sorry, we reserve the right not to serve Filipinos".

Desubot wrote:
"Wouldn't shops be discriminating against nudest for posting no shirts no shoes no service? (though funny enough i guess you can go in pants-less?)

1.) Nudists are not a protected class, whereas sexual orientation is under the Equality Act.

2.) Additionally, not all discrimination is unlawful. For example, if your religion requires a beard, and you're a firefighter, they may legally ask you to shave the beard because it interferes with a gas mask fitting, this is a legitimate and proper request. As DarkTraveller stated, the "no-shirt, no-shoes" policy serves a hygenic purpose, rather than arbitrary religious one.

**Desubot**

Ouze wrote:
Desubot wrote:
"We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone."

Does this have no meaning anymore?

Store policy doesn't trump protection under the law, and never did. I can't refuse service to every Filipino that came into my store and say "sorry, we reserve the right not to serve Filipinos".

So is there Rights just a policy then? (honest question)

**Aerethan**

Fair enough that I perhaps worded things in an inflammatory manner.

On the flip side, since it's rather obvious that this stunt was pulled intentionally to get some publicity or whatever, it just harms the community that it is supposedly fighting for, by making them out to be fight picking asshats.

And while I know that simply because one gay person is stupid that not all gay people are stupid, public perception tends to follow these minor incidents like it's going out of fashion.

Such attention grabs are no better than those who do it claiming some other "tag" that attaches them to some cause, be it religion, gender, sexuality, ethnicity etc.

**Medium of Death**

Why are people projecting on to the victims that they did it purposefully to start a fight?

What are you basing it on?

Nothing.