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As it says in the title, everyone involved great and small no matter how insignificant or epic .

I already know I of the deed sanguinious went through on the Horus battle barge but I think there was a lesser space marine who distracted Horus too before or after the death of sanguinious or was it while the emperor was fighting him? Not sure

Obviously there were more events in other areas like on terra which things were going on

Ollanius Pious, hero of the Imperial Guard.

 TheSilo wrote:
Ollanius Pious, hero of the Imperial Guard.

/Thread

end and lock it son.

 TheSilo wrote:
Ollanius Pious, hero of the Imperial Guard.

Sanguinus stood and fought knowing his demise was to come, perhaps assisting in halting it, the Emperor was at fault for the Horus Heresy reaching as far as it had come, having multiple obvious places to stop it, the Emperor was what finally landed the finishing blow, Horus's doubt that paused him enough to give the Emperor time was another moment... but the most significant of all was this man. Forget the one of him being a perpetual, or some terminator marine, or some custode. The most inspiring version is that of the lone man, Ollanius Pious who just so happened to be teleported into the barge. Who stood against a hulking monster of a man, a former hero that was now fused with dark powers of chaos, insanity. Lying aside is the dead form of what looks like an angel. Behind him lies the Emperor, likely looked to like a god. The one that led them, the one that lead the conquest of the galaxy and united humanity lying on the ground, grievously injured. He stood and was crushed for it finally pushing the Emperor to fight back. That was perhaps the point that made the true difference between victory and loss.

I'd say you can't attribute it to any one man, but if I had to pick one moment, one action, and one man, Horus.

It was his call to lower the shields and allow the Emperor aboard; whether it was arrogance, complacency, overconfidence or just mistaken victory, if he didn't push that button, his armies would have crushed the Emperor's last guardians and then Horus could have gone down and faced him and torn him apart without Sanguinis or Dorn to stop him.

But instead he drops the shields, and the Emperor and Sanguinis and Dorn come aboard and the sequence of events that lead to his death move inexorably to that one conclusion.

EDIT: Or, if we really want to consider it from a different angle, how about this: Horus was a tactician and a general, he surely must have known that to lower the shield was to invite defeat, even for a moment. But there were other powers at work, and he was in the thrall of Chaos. What if, in some corner of their twisted reality, those lords of Chaos, the Dark Gods, foresaw that Horus's final victory would bring to an end their game of aeons.

And in that moment, they made one man give one command, and brought about his downfall, and thus began that longest of wars?

Alpha Legion Primarch. Whoever that may be.

 Paradigm wrote:
I'd say you can't attribute it to any one man, but if I had to pick one moment, one action, and one man, Horus.

It was his call to lower the shields and allow the Emperor aboard; whether it was arrogance, complacency, overconfidence or just mistaken victory, if he didn't push that button, his armies would have crushed the Emperor's last guardians and then Horus could have gone down and faced him and torn him apart without Sanguinis or Dorn to stop him.

But instead he drops the shields, and the Emperor and Sanguinis and Dorn come aboard and the sequence of events that lead to his death move inexorably to that one conclusion.

EDIT: Or, if we really want to consider it from a different angle, how about this: Horus was a tactician and a general, he surely must have known that to lower the shield was to invite defeat, even for a moment. But there were other powers at work, and he was in the thrall of Chaos. What if, in some corner of their twisted reality, those lords of Chaos, the Dark Gods, foresaw that Horus's final victory would bring to an end their game of aeons.

And in that moment, they made one man give one command, and brought about his downfall, and thus began that longest of wars?

Horus lowered the shield because his war was doomed. Two Space Marine legions were en route to save Earth (unknown to the Emperor), so quickly killing the Emperor was his only chance to win. He lured the Emperor onto his ship knowing that without the Emperor humanity would fall, regardless of their reinforcements.

 TheSilo wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
I'd say you can't attribute it to any one man, but if I had to pick one moment, one action, and one man, Horus.

It was his call to lower the shields and allow the Emperor aboard; whether it was arrogance, complacency, overconfidence or just mistaken victory, if he didn't push that button, his armies would have crushed the Emperor's last guardians and then Horus could have gone down and faced him and torn him apart without Sanguinis or Dorn to stop him.

But instead he drops the shields, and the Emperor and Sanguinis and Dorn come aboard and the sequence of events that lead to his death move inexorably to that one conclusion.

EDIT: Or, if we really want to consider it from a different angle, how about this: Horus was a tactician and a general, he surely must have known that to lower the shield was to invite defeat, even for a moment. But there were other powers at work, and he was in the thrall of Chaos. What if, in some corner of their twisted reality, those lords of Chaos, the Dark Gods, foresaw that Horus's final victory would bring to an end their game of aeons.

And in that moment, they made one man give one command, and brought about his downfall, and thus began that longest of wars?

Horus lowered the shield because his war was doomed. Two Space Marine legions were en route to save Earth (unknown to the Emperor), so quickly killing the Emperor was his only chance to win. He lured the Emperor onto his ship knowing that without the Emperor humanity would fall, regardless of their reinforcements.

Got a source for this? The versions I've read (5th SM codex, BA and CSM codex) give no reason for him lowering the shields, suggesting that maybe it was a show of complacency or overconfidence rather than anything tactical. Not saying you're wrong, just curious as either it's been changed or I've misremembered 3 separate sources.

we would have had Magnus to thank for preventing the whole thing, but horus got leman russ to wolfy wolf all over his wolf wolf.

sorry....just been on the stormclaw rumours page. damn furries.

Ollanius Pius, Patron Saint of the Imperial Guard.

Ollanius demonstrated to the Emperor what He was truly fighting for. Ollanius showed all at once the strength, loyalty, and stoic acceptance of death that so characterizes men...

...and also the fury, the fear, the unbridled emotional psyche of Mankind, at once the boon and bane of Chaos.

The Emperor, for all His power, realized at that time the power of Man, and wept burning tears of vengeful compassion as Ollanius, without flinching, was crushed by the Talon of Horus.

It was then that the Emperor realized Horus could not truly be saved, and also that Mankind was worthy of His leadership.

It's interesting you think the Heresy wasn't victorious.

Horus was manipulated by the Powers because they were concerned that once the Great Crusade was concluded (and that was very close at the point where the Heresy began) the Emperor would turn his attention to pacifying the Warp.

I'd say by any criteria, that the Heresy achieved exactly what it was supposed to.

From a certain point of view.

 Paradigm wrote:
Got a source for this? The versions I've read (5th SM codex, BA and CSM codex) give no reason for him lowering the shields, suggesting that maybe it was a show of complacency or overconfidence rather than anything tactical. Not saying you're wrong, just curious as either it's been changed or I've misremembered 3 separate sources.

An old William King story of the battle of Terra:

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/514769/battle-holy-terra-short-story

A good part down, three quarters or more. Horus learns that the Dark Angels and Space Wolves are only hours away, forcing him to lower his shields to lure the Emperor on board.

It could I guess be argued that the heresy was either a plan which went perfect for chaos setting up the later stages of what may be.

Or

The heresy was in fact stopped because of a flinch in Horus second thinking everything last second or he had a plan to kill the emperor quick and end the war quickly.

I guess at this point no one can really say if the heresy was a success or wether it just delayed the termination if human beings for a while longer

tgjensen wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
Got a source for this? The versions I've read (5th SM codex, BA and CSM codex) give no reason for him lowering the shields, suggesting that maybe it was a show of complacency or overconfidence rather than anything tactical. Not saying you're wrong, just curious as either it's been changed or I've misremembered 3 separate sources.

An old William King story of the battle of Terra:

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/514769/battle-holy-terra-short-story

A good part down, three quarters or more. Horus learns that the Dark Angels and Space Wolves are only hours away, forcing him to lower his shields to lure the Emperor on board.

Interesting. This is one version, Lexicanum states something similar but needs a citation. I swear the 4th ed CSM codex has yet another version.

 Paradigm wrote:

tgjensen wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
Got a source for this? The versions I've read (5th SM codex, BA and CSM codex) give no reason for him lowering the shields, suggesting that maybe it was a show of complacency or overconfidence rather than anything tactical. Not saying you're wrong, just curious as either it's been changed or I've misremembered 3 separate sources.

An old William King story of the battle of Terra:

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/514769/battle-holy-terra-short-story

A good part down, three quarters or more. Horus learns that the Dark Angels and Space Wolves are only hours away, forcing him to lower his shields to lure the Emperor on board.

Interesting. This is one version, Lexicanum states something similar but needs a citation. I swear the 4th ed CSM codex has yet another version.

The truth is only Horus himself knows why he dropped his shields. Maybe it was to invite the Emperor over so he could kill him before reinforcements arrived, or maybe a tiny slither of the noble hero did it to bring about his own death before he destroyed everything he helped to create.

With regards to why Horus let down the shields the CSM 6th codex says

The moment of Horus' victory was near, but progress was too slow, the defenders still stubbornly resisted. After being notified that loyalist reinforcements were soon to arrive, the Warmaster decided to take a risky gambit and lowered the shields protecting his flagship, hoping to lure the Emperor into a personal confrontation. That very instant, the Emperor felt the Warmaster's presence and saw what he had to do.

Narrative inevitability... the fall from grace of the prodigal son only ends one way when he faces off with daddy

 Paradigm wrote:

 TheSilo wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
I'd say you can't attribute it to any one man, but if I had to pick one moment, one action, and one man, Horus.

It was his call to lower the shields and allow the Emperor aboard; whether it was arrogance, complacency, overconfidence or just mistaken victory, if he didn't push that button, his armies would have crushed the Emperor's last guardians and then Horus could have gone down and faced him and torn him apart without Sanguinis or Dorn to stop him.

But instead he drops the shields, and the Emperor and Sanguinis and Dorn come aboard and the sequence of events that lead to his death move inexorably to that one conclusion.

EDIT: Or, if we really want to consider it from a different angle, how about this: Horus was a tactician and a general, he surely must have known that to lower the shield was to invite defeat, even for a moment. But there were other powers at work, and he was in the thrall of Chaos. What if, in some corner of their twisted reality, those lords of Chaos, the Dark Gods, foresaw that Horus's final victory would bring to an end their game of aeons.

And in that moment, they made one man give one command, and brought about his downfall, and thus began that longest of wars?

Horus lowered the shield because his war was doomed. Two Space Marine legions were en route to save Earth (unknown to the Emperor), so quickly killing the Emperor was his only chance to win. He lured the Emperor onto his ship knowing that without the Emperor humanity would fall, regardless of their reinforcements.

Got a source for this? The versions I've read (5th SM codex, BA and CSM codex) give no reason for him lowering the shields, suggesting that maybe it was a show of complacency or overconfidence rather than anything tactical. Not saying you're wrong, just curious as either it's been changed or I've misremembered 3 separate sources.

Pg357, Visions of Heresy, Alan Merret

 azreal13 wrote:
It's interesting you think the Heresy wasn't victorious.

Horus was manipulated by the Powers because they were concerned that once the Great Crusade was concluded (and that was very close at the point where the Heresy began) the Emperor would turn his attention to pacifying the Warp.

I'd say by any criteria, that the Heresy achieved exactly what it was supposed to.

From a certain point of view.

Couldn't agree more. In fact, I think that in many ways the Horus Heresy was a complete success for the forces of Chaos. Think about it, not only did they avert the Emperor turning his attention to the Warp, but they also managed to kick the the Imperium in the nuts so hard that it became a stagnated, xenophobic, tyrannical version of what it used to be. Humanity no longer moves forward, but struggles to maintain what it has. Had the Horus Heresy not happened I don't think that there is any question of the Imperium of Man being so dominant that they would be on par with the Old Ones by the 41st millennium. Or at least close to it. With the Golden Throne failing, the Ruinous Powers know that it is only a matter of time before they can mass another assault. Abaddon's Crusade will be a kindergarten musical compared to what the Ruinous Powers could muster without Empy standing vigilant in the Warp.

I imagine come the end of the HH books (so by the real year 30,000 no doubt ) it'll explain it. the reinforcements incoming makes the most sense. I imagine Horus had to know that with his forces tired and depleted the way they where, the Ultramarineswould stand a very real chance of breaking the seige. especially if we assume Guilliman was late to the party because he was rallying the other legions not present on Terra.

BrianDavion wrote:
I imagine come the end of the HH books (so by the real year 30,000 no doubt ) it'll explain it. the reinforcements incoming makes the most sense. I imagine Horus had to know that with his forces tired and depleted the way they where, the Ultramarineswould stand a very real chance of breaking the seige. especially if we assume Guilliman was late to the party because he was rallying the other legions not present on Terra.

Indeed, I believe the DA (and SW?) were also en route

Who the frack is this Ollanius Pious? There is no metion of this Guardsman in the old fluff.
For me it is and shall always be Sanguinis. (pic to prove it, this is from the mid 90s early 2nd edition)

The Horus Heresy was basically the Emperor trolling the rest of humanity.

He went too far though, probably stoned at the time.

 Ribon Fox wrote:
Who the frack is this Ollanius Pious? There is no metion of this Guardsman in the old fluff.
For me it is and shall always be Sanguinis. (pic to prove it, this is from the mid 90s early 2nd edition)

Pious shows up after Horus kicks the emperor's butt across his battle barge bridge. He finds the mortally wounded Emperor and stands between him and Horus, obviously he is a man with a las gun and is no match for Horus, but he stands there anyway to defend his lord.

pax_imperialis wrote:
we would have had Magnus to thank for preventing the whole thing, but horus got leman russ to wolfy wolf all over his wolf wolf.

sorry....just been on the stormclaw rumours page. damn furries.

Magnus though in his trying to warn the Emperor hurt the defenses of Terra and made the planet ripe for invasion thanks to his stupidity though .

The TRUE HERO is Rogal Dorn of the Imperial Fists. Not only did he design the defenses of the Imperial Palace, the Imperial Fists where only one of 3x Chapters who stood and Fought the entire Traitor Legions (including the so-called Seige Mater Iron Warriors) and held them off long enough for the Emperor to board Horus's Ship, who let them come as he was under pressure from the incoming support fleets as the defenders of the Imperial Palace would not budge and the siege was taking way to long. Heck, even Horus joked once that if his Luna Wolves Legion fought the Imperial Fists Legion, it would be a never-ending battle, as it would be the Best Attackers vs the Best Defenders, which is why the Emperor made Rogal Dorn the Praetorian of Terra.

Plus it was Rogal Dorn who found the bodies of the Emperor and returned him to the Golden Throne. Overall, the Imperial Fists deserve the most praise for Horus not being victorious in my opinion, as they are known as the Defenders of Terra .

 Ribon Fox wrote:
Who the frack is this Ollanius Pious? There is no metion of this Guardsman in the old fluff.
For me it is and shall always be Sanguinis. (pic to prove it, this is from the mid 90s early 2nd edition)

While the general beats are the same, the story of the Emperor's fight with Horus has been subtly rewritten several times. In all of them Horus is distracted before he can deliver the death blow. One version it's a group of Imperial Fists Terminators, another it's a a Custode, and one version has a guardsman, Ollanius Pius. They all get killed for their trouble, which hardens the Emperor's resolve and allows him to kill Horus.

Some versions also have Sanguinius make a small chink in Horus' armor, which the Emperor then ultimately uses to slay the Warmaster, but not all. It's not an interpretation I particularly care for though. I like the interpretation that the Emperor always had the power to kill Horus but held back because of his love for his favorite son and the hope that he could save him still. It was the Emperor's wish for respite and forgiveness that doomed the Imperium to eternal war and stagnation, and as we all know, there's no time for that in the grim darkness of the far future.

I blame Tzeentch .

i love it
alot of people are not fond of the changing of the fluff over the years, but like legends passed from generation to generation they change slightly over time. here you see that where every chapter has its different story about there importance in the heresy, of how sanguinis saved humanity by giving his life would be written in books for all to read for millenia to come, in all storys there is something that makes the emperor realize his son is truly fallen, and resolves to kill him. but who needs reassuring of there purpose more than the lowly guardsmen the story of ollinous pious would be would be told in the trenches on all worlds by the ministerium priests in between the chanting of there war hymns, whether it is true or not the guardsmen need the tale of one of there ranks being present in that final moment


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also lion el johnson bringing the dark angels back from treachery i would imagine had profound effects on heresy,
not that i have read that, but them coming back into the fold couldn't have been good for the forces of chaos

Don't overlook Little Horus. I have a sneaky suspicion he'll do a Darth and turn back to the light side at the end of it all and might possibly be the one to lower the flagship's shields.

There's too much of his agonising over the path he's set upon sprinkled throughout the series for it not to mean anything ...

Garro. Imagine every single loyalist legion suffering the plight of the ultramarines at Calth due to having no warning. The ultras were exeptionally lucky not to have been knocked out of the war - let alone not to have been entirely obliterated.
Advance warning in war is vital. 8 legions (minus TS), with supporting Imperial Army, half of the mechanicum and fleet turning up in the Sol system with only the IF and Terran regiments at hand would have spelt the end.