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 Necroagogo wrote:
Don't overlook Little Horus. I have a sneaky suspicion he'll do a Darth and turn back to the light side at the end of it all and might possibly be the one to lower the flagship's shields.

There's too much of his agonising over the path he's set upon sprinkled throughout the series for it not to mean anything ...

Agreed. I have my own suspicions of his involvement in something like this.

 Rommel44 wrote:

pax_imperialis wrote:
we would have had Magnus to thank for preventing the whole thing, but horus got leman russ to wolfy wolf all over his wolf wolf.

sorry....just been on the stormclaw rumours page. damn furries.

Magnus though in his trying to warn the Emperor hurt the defenses of Terra and made the planet ripe for invasion thanks to his stupidity though .

The TRUE HERO is Rogal Dorn of the Imperial Fists. Not only did he design the defenses of the Imperial Palace, the Imperial Fists where only one of 3x Chapters who stood and Fought the entire Traitor Legions (including the so-called Seige Mater Iron Warriors) and held them off long enough for the Emperor to board Horus's Ship, who let them come as he was under pressure from the incoming support fleets as the defenders of the Imperial Palace would not budge and the siege was taking way to long. Heck, even Horus joked once that if his Luna Wolves Legion fought the Imperial Fists Legion, it would be a never-ending battle, as it would be the Best Attackers vs the Best Defenders, which is why the Emperor made Rogal Dorn the Praetorian of Terra.

Plus it was Rogal Dorn who found the bodies of the Emperor and returned him to the Golden Throne. Overall, the Imperial Fists deserve the most praise for Horus not being victorious in my opinion, as they are known as the Defenders of Terra .

This is a very convincing argument. Sanguinius got the glorious death, but Dorn was the one whose brilliance bought the Imperium time to muster their surprised and overwhelmed forces. It's all well and good to have an awesome warrior like Sanguinius but a great planner like Dorn is worth a hundred of those.

 Rommel44 wrote:

pax_imperialis wrote:
we would have had Magnus to thank for preventing the whole thing, but horus got leman russ to wolfy wolf all over his wolf wolf.

sorry....just been on the stormclaw rumours page. damn furries.

Magnus though in his trying to warn the Emperor hurt the defenses of Terra and made the planet ripe for invasion thanks to his stupidity though .

That would be ignorance actually not stupidity, Magnus had no idea the Emperor had secret sauce going on. It was a rational action. What else would he do, say "Horus is going to betray everyone and send the galaxy into hell, oh well what's for lunch"?

The Emperor.

Of course, we also have him to thank for the Heresy even starting so it's a wash. Humanity was crushed during the Age of Strife, experienced a nice uptake and expansion just prior to the heresy, then plunged back into another 10k years of insanity because he couldn't place any trust in the very people he was trying to build up.

 Bulldogging wrote:

 Rommel44 wrote:

pax_imperialis wrote:
we would have had Magnus to thank for preventing the whole thing, but horus got leman russ to wolfy wolf all over his wolf wolf.

sorry....just been on the stormclaw rumours page. damn furries.

Magnus though in his trying to warn the Emperor hurt the defenses of Terra and made the planet ripe for invasion thanks to his stupidity though .

That would be ignorance actually not stupidity, Magnus had no idea the Emperor had secret sauce going on. It was a rational action. What else would he do, say "Horus is going to betray everyone and send the galaxy into hell, oh well what's for lunch"?

Its called send the emperor an email, a text, or contact him by Vox . Plus, Magnus was told not to by the Emperor before not to do it because it could have drastic consequences. Well, look what happened lol.

Magnus knew that any other way of contacting the Enperor would be too late. Sending "a text" was no option.

DontEatRawHagis wrote:
Alpha Legion Primarch. Whoever that may be.

I certainly HOPE this ends up being the case!

And even if Omegon ends up offing his brother, he'll still be....Alpharius!

 Rommel44 wrote:

 Bulldogging wrote:

 Rommel44 wrote:

pax_imperialis wrote:
we would have had Magnus to thank for preventing the whole thing, but horus got leman russ to wolfy wolf all over his wolf wolf.

sorry....just been on the stormclaw rumours page. damn furries.

Magnus though in his trying to warn the Emperor hurt the defenses of Terra and made the planet ripe for invasion thanks to his stupidity though .

That would be ignorance actually not stupidity, Magnus had no idea the Emperor had secret sauce going on. It was a rational action. What else would he do, say "Horus is going to betray everyone and send the galaxy into hell, oh well what's for lunch"?

Its called send the emperor an email, a text, or contact him by Vox . Plus, Magnus was told not to by the Emperor before not to do it because it could have drastic consequences. Well, look what happened lol.

thanks to horus' warp storms, no other long range comms were working at this point. Magnus had no idea the emperor was working on a webway portal, the emperor if he were so wise, should have at least listened after seeing the effort Magnus went to. The inconsistency annoys me as prior to this the emperor basically accepted that magnus was the only one of the primarchs even close to him in warp power and was also the one committed to knowledge yet he dismisses Magnus' warning. I think that's the true tragedy in thousand sons, that the emperor betrays magnus and allows the heresy to happen

 Rommel44 wrote:

 Bulldogging wrote:

 Rommel44 wrote:

pax_imperialis wrote:
we would have had Magnus to thank for preventing the whole thing, but horus got leman russ to wolfy wolf all over his wolf wolf.

sorry....just been on the stormclaw rumours page. damn furries.

Magnus though in his trying to warn the Emperor hurt the defenses of Terra and made the planet ripe for invasion thanks to his stupidity though .

That would be ignorance actually not stupidity, Magnus had no idea the Emperor had secret sauce going on. It was a rational action. What else would he do, say "Horus is going to betray everyone and send the galaxy into hell, oh well what's for lunch"?

Its called send the emperor an email, a text, or contact him by Vox . Plus, Magnus was told not to by the Emperor before not to do it because it could have drastic consequences. Well, look what happened lol.

Find it funny that people are taking this seriously when it was meant as a joke lol. I know that the Thousand sons got screwed over in a way which is a shame, but then again thats what happens when you go poking about in the Warp without permission.

As all prophecies are written in foresight form I'm thinking the real story goes something like this.

In the beginning, a man rises above all others in a time when human fought human in civil war. His righteous and honorable persona quickly gives him recognition among the masses while his incredible scientific ambitions gave Jim the power to accelerate mankind into becoming a unified force not to be reckoned with. This is the intro

Emperor then cteates 20 super humans to begin a quest to unite other humans spread all over the galaxy. Now here chaos seems to of read the plan here and already managed to put a monkey wrench in the emperors works. What foresight huh? You must ask it seems chaos has been playing the humans from the very start. The seed of chaos touches all the young primarchs and I'm pretty sure they had the future events already written in a handbook. Sanguinious probably knew of his death even when he was a child. A gift from chaos? It was another set up for the final conflict I think. All primarchs grew to love their father and for a time they managed to progress quite rapidly across the galaxy and their glorious battles echoed from world to world. This is the middle bit

In the end - the emperor displayed major flaws on how he treated his children. Like any son or daughter who begins to feel they are loved or cared for less results in a bitterness if not hateful energy toward their parents. Hence begins the catalyst for the heresy. After making it clear some primarchs were valued more than others chaos enters the scene again and sticks a helping hand into the mix. The whispers, the doubts chaos manages to trigger those deep seeds planted deep in the primarch hosts - call it an activation if you will allowing brother to turn onto brother.

It all comes to an end on the barge. But here's the cheese. I think the emperor realized more than what is thought he did during that event. With Horus being steered like a puppet by chaos, sanguinious knowing his fate before it would happen the emperor sees for s split second what the whole thing meant and what he had to do. He realised he was the fault, he discovered at that moment that from bringing the human race so high up the ladder united as one he managed to do the complete reverse by causing this reason for hate and resistance. The emperor had gone too far, he took his sons for granted, played with their emotions, broke their spirits and crushed their love they had for a father they wanted him so much to be and chaos new this from the start. The used the emperors great plan and at the last minute triggered the bomb. Human progress in a single moment would stop and plunge into the grimdark era it's in now, humans would have to learn to swim in the depend with no primarchs their to aid them and it was all clear to the emperor right up till the last moment. They all had to die for the human race to stand a chance. The sacrifice the primarchs made, the emperor made was to result to one definite outcome. They all had to be wiped out and let man take the reigns and stand up united and with a cause worthy to fight for. For the survival of mankind against all who threatened her. For our emperor, our beloved primarchs and the history which now binds all space marine chapters we have been given the strength which was absent before to fight on in the hopes that we will vanquish all evil and our strife to make our galaxy one of peace and prosperity.

So I'm saying in not so many words maybe indeed the heresy was not as victorious as it is written

Rogal Dorn is my vote.

I blame the Emperor for all the problems. At the very least he should have told EVERY Primarch about Chaos. He would have never lost the 1000 Sons who were the coolest chapter ever till they fell to Chaos.

He outlaws Psykers and expects the Sons to stop being Psykers. Then he send the Wolves to make them Heel. Not a good idea.

Tzeentch even said if the Imperium had the Wolves and the Sons then Choas was doomed and couldn't win.

Emperor, but more for he should have delt with his sons better, some plain needed help, and bit of guidence others got no recognition, some outlawed.
He knew what magnus was, he could not give up his powers, they where him. His legion could have been as very powerful ally.
And yes briefing everyone on whole chaos, way warp works, dangers, and such would have been good idea. Ie talking swords = very bad....

In the end, it comes down to Ollanius Pious.

Without him at the very end, nothing anyone had done prior would have mattered.

 azreal13 wrote:
It's interesting you think the Heresy wasn't victorious.

Horus was manipulated by the Powers because they were concerned that once the Great Crusade was concluded (and that was very close at the point where the Heresy began) the Emperor would turn his attention to pacifying the Warp.

I'd say by any criteria, that the Heresy achieved exactly what it was supposed to.

From a certain point of view.

Exactly.

Chaos won the Heresy. The Traitor Legions didn't, but Chaos got exactly what it wanted out of the whole deal.

I blame Eldrad. If he hadn't tried that whole Eldar Trickery thing, things might have gone a bit different.

Results of the Heresey.

Emperor is confined to the Golden Throne and unable to lead his planned crusade into the warp.

Perhaps the greatest, most enlightened empire to rule the galaxy collapses into ignorance, superstition, fear and unending violence.

Chaos gains hundreds of thousands of new warriors as minions and will continue to acquire hundreds of thousands if not millions more in the ensuing centuries.

Chaos is able to manifest virtually anywhere in the galaxy at will.

I think we know exactly who got the ending they wanted from the Heresey.

....... No one has even spoken of poor Malcador?! What the gak?

He helped Rogal Dorn organize the defense of Terra. He also used his pysker powers to push Titan into the warp temporarily to protect the Grey Knights from the incoming traitor legions.

Then, in order to allow the Emperor to deal with Horus and other traitors, he took the Emperor's place on the Golden Throne temporarily. That effort alone killed him, but he bought the time the Emperor needed.

----------------------------------------

On a side note, he also basically created the entire Administratum from the ground up and he also created the Officio Assasinorum, Adeptus Astronomica and the Inquisition.

---------------------------------------

He got gak done.

Totally Sanguinus. He put the chink in horus' armor that let the emperor kill him.

Jefffar wrote:
Perhaps the greatest, most enlightened empire to rule the galaxy collapses into ignorance, superstition, fear and unending violence.

I agree with everything else you said, but the Imperium is pitiful compared to the previous empires of the Eldar or the Necrons.

Yes, but the Emperor wasn't done yet and the Imperium was still very young. Had the Heresey not occurred it could have developed more or less unchallenged by anything within the galaxy.

Malcador, Dorn, and Little Horus.

Each will have their parts to play.

I still think sanguinious is the main factor because no matter how much dorm defended terra if Horus defeated the emperor on that ship that would be it for humanity. Horus would re organize and attack terra full on and without the emperor in the way nothing would stand in the war masters path of destruction.

I think sanguinious could see the alternative endings if he did not face Horus head on and give him that dink. If he had not the ending would be an alternative one where the emperor would have fallen. Even with the account if the minor marine who stood up to Horus it was at the exact time needed. It was sanguinious who had first dibs at Horus and lasted just in time for emperor to enter and follow up to the sm who stood in the way of horus's final blow.

All these effects lead up to sanguinious's butterfly effect because he knew what to do and what it would mean if he didn't

Pfft, the Emperor could totally have taken Horus even without Sanguinius' efforts. The only reason he struggled at all was because he couldn't bring himself to discorporate his own son outright.

Even if you say that the combination of the four gods' power was enough to protect Horus from the Emperor's full psychic might, Horus didn't even wear a fricken helmet, so no microscoping 'dink' in his armour was going to make a difference.

Sorry, I'm not having that about Dorn being the great mastermind behind the defence. You could argue the reason the defences held for so long was not due to Dorn, but due to a small group of loyalist Iron Warriors, brought to Terra for the sole reason of suring up the gaps in the defence, which knowing Dorns ability to let his arrogance rule over his mind, there were more than a few.

Horus had to drop the shields, he had to gamble to end the war there and then, or risk being routed by the dark angels and space wolves and eventually a HUGE Ultramarine for and being chased all the way to the eye of terror or get caught along the way. Horus was a great strategist, not he best of the Primarch but definitely one of the best, there was a reason for him dropping the shields, maybe if he didn't finish it there the chaos gods would have turned him into spawn and he knew that.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Horus had to drop the shields, he had to gamble to end the war there and then, or risk being routed by the dark angels and space wolves and eventually a HUGE Ultramarine for and being chased all the way to the eye of terror or get caught along the way. Horus was a great strategist, not he best of the Primarch but definitely one of the best, there was a reason for him dropping the shields, maybe if he didn't finish it there the chaos gods would have turned him into spawn and he knew that.

Reinforcements from the UM, SW and DA were the primary reason Horus ordered his shields dropped as far as I can recall, but Horus believed that he was the Master of Chaos at the time even boasting that he had succeeded in bending Chaos to his will where the Emperor had failed. It was only as he was dying that he realized that he was a pawn and not a king.

People we have to thank for the Horus Heresy not being successful:

The Chaos gods.
Horus.
All the traitor primarchs.

Oh, and also the Emperor and the loyalist primarchs. But mostly those three groups right there are the primary reason the Horus Heresy failed.

It failed because the people participating in it were either insane warp-entities with no comprehension of the concept of victory to begin with, or incompetent man-children with more psychological problems than a planet-sized sanitarium and egos larger than the kuiper belts of star systems. And thus, in spite of the general lack of competence in the loyalist side, it was doomed to failure from the start.

The great part about Horus dropping his shields is that what this meant to The Emperor was "I can teleport on board and fight him one-on-one!", not "his shields are down, I can now destroy his ship with the huge guns on my ship, and end this all right now".

Furyou Miko wrote:Pfft, the Emperor could totally have taken Horus even without Sanguinius' efforts. The only reason he struggled at all was because he couldn't bring himself to discorporate his own son outright.

Even if you say that the combination of the four gods' power was enough to protect Horus from the Emperor's full psychic might, Horus didn't even wear a fricken helmet, so no microscoping 'dink' in his armour was going to make a difference.

There is a difference between having a known hole in you defences that you can account for (especially the head, which we've evolved to take quite good care of) and a potentially subtle weakness that you don't know about.

Frozen Ocean wrote:The great part about Horus dropping his shields is that what this meant to The Emperor was "I can teleport on board and fight him one-on-one!", not "his shields are down, I can now destroy his ship with the huge guns on my ship, and end this all right now".

As Horus was the favourite of all 4 gods, simply destroying the flagship is unlikely to be enough to kill him. He'd just get grabbed and dragged through a handy warp rift to another ship. The big E needed to do the deed in person for all sorts of reasons, including narrative correctness.

That seems highly suspect. There are no examples of Horus escaping death through such Warp trickery. It might be possible to ascribe it to The Emperor's desire to, in spite of all that had happened, talk Horus down.

The "chink in the armour" thing is just plain silly. This is The Emperor. There's no way a suit of mere Terminator armour was going to do much against him. Even going by the logic that Horus himself was Chaos-enhanced, the "chink in the armour" idea requires Horus to have relied entirely on his Terminator armour for protection. It was merely a story invented by the Blood Angels to make the tragic death of their beloved Primarch feel meaningful.

forgotten ghosts wrote:
...but who needs reassuring of there purpose more than the lowly guardsmen the story of ollinous pious would be would be told in the trenches on all worlds by the ministerium priests in between the chanting of there war hymns, whether it is true or not the guardsmen need the tale of one of there ranks being present in that final moment

The fascinating thing about the evolution of the Olanious Pious story is, as far as I can tell, it's not been GW's fluff writers that elevated his death from the Imperial Palace to the Vengeful Spirit, it's been the players - consciously or unconsciously rewriting the original story because the version in their heads is better, and more meaningful, exactly as it would happen in the IoM itself.

I think this is also why people are so defensive about Ollanious. It's our legend, of our making, not GW's. At this point it doesn't matter whether or not that was what happened. It's what should have happened.

So it's what did happen.