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Yeah I've been trying out a no Heldrake list on Vasall with Lash Prince and a bunch of armour running at you and it's pretty boss. Objective Secured Plague Marines are really nifty.

Not sure about plague marines say 205 points for 5 man squad with 2 x melta + combi melta + rhino with dirgecaster. The equivalent regular CSM squad would be 135 points (although you only get to have 1 meltagun - obviously everyone swaps out their bolters for bolt pistols).

Assuming you go for 2 units then your spending 140 extra points for:
+1 T, FnP, Fearless, Poison (which no longer affects T4)
4 extra bolters
2 extra meltaguns

But that's the cost of 4 nurgle spawn or an extra maulerfiend. Plague marines are definetly better than their regular equivalents but I don't know if the points might not be better spent elsewhere. If your opponent wants to blow you off an objective it doesn't take that much more shooting to wipe out 5 plague marines than 5 regular marines (especially if its stuff like wave serpents, seeker missiles etc).

All CSM troops suffer from different problems, they don't do OS cheap or effectively. The best we can do is MSU CSMs or NMs in Rhinos.

7th didn't really make CSM any better, they still suffer from having slow, expensive/non-fearless troops.

This says it best.

http://daemons40k.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/chaos-space-marine-reviews-troops.html?m=1

Plus the Heldrake is now 3rd choice Fast Attack behind Bikes & Spawn, it's been hit far too hard with the FAQ.

wtnind wrote:
But that's the cost of 4 nurgle spawn or an extra maulerfiend. Plague marines are definetly better than their regular equivalents but I don't know if the points might not be better spent elsewhere. If your opponent wants to blow you off an objective it doesn't take that much more shooting to wipe out 5 plague marines than 5 regular marines (especially if its stuff like wave serpents, seeker missiles etc).

That's not entirely true. The T5 gives some more survivability (16.6% reduction in wound determination, compared to T4) against low S fire, often discouraging from taking a shot at them. For higher S fire, they still get their 33% FNP chance. And to cancel to FNP they need to be shot with S10. Which would be a win since those expensive S10 shots are not going to your Forgefiend etc.

Alltogether this means if the toughness counts you got about 44% reduction of wounds and if it doesn't count it's still 33%. So I'd say it indeed is much more shooting it needs

Malefic666 wrote:

Plus the Heldrake is now 3rd choice Fast Attack behind Bikes & Spawn, it's been hit far too hard with the FAQ.

Depends on your local metagame I'd say. If you were baleflaming the gak out of marines, then yes. But if you took them to fight massive flyer and FMC spam they are still pretty useful while bikes and spawns do not help with that at all.

wtnind wrote:
Not sure about plague marines say 205 points for 5 man squad with 2 x melta + combi melta + rhino with dirgecaster. The equivalent regular CSM squad would be 135 points (although you only get to have 1 meltagun - obviously everyone swaps out their bolters for bolt pistols).

Assuming you go for 2 units then your spending 140 extra points for:
+1 T, FnP, Fearless, Poison (which no longer affects T4)
4 extra bolters
2 extra meltaguns

But that's the cost of 4 nurgle spawn or an extra maulerfiend. Plague marines are definetly better than their regular equivalents but I don't know if the points might not be better spent elsewhere. If your opponent wants to blow you off an objective it doesn't take that much more shooting to wipe out 5 plague marines than 5 regular marines (especially if its stuff like wave serpents, seeker missiles etc).

blight grenades have their uses

Well, seeing as you can't allocate wounds to models out of fire arc with the baleflamer (why GW!?) the only Drake worth a toss is the Hades one and while I see your point competitively there is no point taking Drakes to take on FMCs. Most serious FMCs (Like those god damn Flyrants!) have access to a 3+ that gimps the Hades (AP4 sucks) & the Vector Strikes are, while useful, are a lot to pay for. Right now, like the Forgefiend, the Drake is about 40 points too expensive. For the price of 3 Drakes a Nid player can nearly get (about 100 points shy) take 3 Flyrants & don't get me started on electroshock grubs or the other flying gribbles.

My advice would be pack up the Drakes right now & put those points into fast melee units. Maulerfiends, Spawn, Daemons, Bikes, Nurgle Princes, even BeLakor, whatever. Win the ground war & kill all their OS/units. Make them pay for putting so many points into things that can't score. MSU Noise Marines or CSMs could fit in too.

I've tried rhino rush with just regular Chaos Space Marines, it did not go well.

Hollismason wrote:
I've tried rhino rush with just regular Chaos Space Marines, it did not go well.

What were you playing against? Were they marked? Any other units supporting them? Im curious cause they point save with normal CSM vs PM is what make me think they could be better in that situation, and with all this CSM talk i want to run them again haha, with Daemon allies of coarse.

Well, 7th edition might have opened the door for a CSM psychic deathstar.

Ahriman
BL Sorcerer with ML3, Terminator armor, Spell familiar, Last Memory artefact
A squad of high toughness ablative models (Chosen, Terminators, Plague Marines, etc)

- Roll on Sanctific to get Sanctuary and Gate of Infinity, increase your invulnerable saves and move forward appropriately
- Trigger the nova with the Last Memory, blind whatever would be shooting at you
- Go to town with Ahriman

It's over 600 points to do this, but it might be tougher than people think. The thread about it is here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/605521.page#7031313

 Solosam47 wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
I've tried rhino rush with just regular Chaos Space Marines, it did not go well.

What were you playing against? Were they marked? Any other units supporting them? Im curious cause they point save with normal CSM vs PM is what make me think they could be better in that situation, and with all this CSM talk i want to run them again haha, with Daemon allies of coarse.

I was running 5 man squads w/ 1 melta gun, combimelta , backed up with Daemons. It was kind of a "mechanized" list. It just didn't work. I was playing Tyranids then I played it against Eldar.

I can see eldar being a problem, as for nids, i have yet to play against them with anyother army but my guard

When GW opens up a new door for Chaos it is generally just so they can slam it closed right in their face.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
When GW opens up a new door for Chaos it is generally just so they can slam it closed right in their face.

Which is funny cause chaos seem to be one of the most played armies out there, but of coarse we all know GW policy, money money money.

I feel like not enough people take advantage of the fact that Chaos has access to Sanctic Daemonology with their Sorcerers, I've used it a decent amount and it's pretty good honestly.

50% of the Powers are Level 1 so with a spell familiar you'll cast them on 1 warp Charge dice. Easy to dispel but still.


What's a good load out for a Chaos Space Marine Lord that' going to accompany spawn?

Hollismason wrote:

What's a good load out for a Chaos Space Marine Lord that' going to accompany spawn?

Bike to keep up with the spawn.

Buff him to ML 3. (duh!)

Spell Familiar.

I'm digging the Black Legion's Artifacts... particularly the:
The Skull of Ker’ngar: Eternal Warrior, plus Adamantium Will to boot!

The Hand of Darkness: It’s fairly expensive, and reduces you to a single attack, but that 1 attack is at double your Strength, AP1, Armorbane, Fleshbane and causes Instant Death.

I was thinking just a Chaos Lord w/ Bike, Mark of Nurgle, Powerfist, Combiweapon, the 5++ .

Hollismason wrote:
I was thinking just a Chaos Lord w/ Bike, Mark of Nurgle, Powerfist, Combiweapon, the 5++ .

You said Lord... sorry.

Maybe the Murder Sword?

Eh, I've not honestly been impressed by Chaos Lords as a investment I prefer beat stick Daemon Princes running around killing things.

I love the thought of Lords with Daemonheart on bikes accompanying Spawn of Nurgle. throw a Powerfist and the Sword on him to just constantly become more murderous. So satisfying haha

But aside from Spawn keeping Lords company, I really don't tend to take them. I mean, the Eye of Night is really nice with the Haywire Maelstrom effect. I'd never put it on a Daemon Prince just because of cost. Maybe use a Lord to unlock the elites, throw the Eye on him and take a pot shot much like a Loyalist Orbital Bombardment.

It's a 50 point one shot though. That's why I don't really like the Black legion Artifacts most are super expensive for their value.

Although getting a level 4 Psyker is pretty boss.

I just wish Chosen weren't such utter garbage.

I usually give my Lord MoN, Bike, Sigil of Corruption, Daemonheart, Blight Grenades and either a Power Axe or PF/LC, depending a bit on points and opponent.

Not really a fan of any of the special artifact weapons we have on lords, the Aobf is fun for dishing out a ton of attacks with a Juggerlord (which got a lot better with new challenge rules!), but things like the black mace is just so much better on a DP.

As for Chosen they are not a unit I take often, but I have had some minor success with giving them the Pref Enemy upgrade from Crimson Slaughter, load up on plasma guns and infiltrate them (I've been using Huron, but Ahriman isn't looking too bad either now)

Brand of Skalathrax is a relic that always served me well on a bike lord, speeding around hitting things with a flamer before spawn engage in cc.

As for the debate between who is better with the BM, nurgle bike lord vs DP, im going with the DP on that. They just hit so hard it make life easy to activate the BM special rule.

The one fix chosen need, 2+ armor save, like their sternguard enemies. How are you going to survive countless years in the warp, fight countless battles against every living thing in a galaxy where every living thing can kill you, be genetically enhanced, daemon infused, and still only have a 3+......for same chaos, for shame.

Yeah I think overall everyone can agree that chose are a garbage slot compared to everything else in the elites slot and to be honest I think I'm just dumping the Chaos Lord on Bike , why the hell and I spending those points on him again when they could be put to better use anyway.

Makes me super sad chosen are not better than what they are.... tears....

Yeah if they'd have just kept infiltrate. It's just a terrible unit, I mean the only thing I could think of would just to do a Bare Bones, 6 Man Squad w/ 5 Flamers and a Rhino, even that is kind of gakky really.

Yeah I could only run chosen now out of cyphers formation, get them close and depending on Loadout, flame or melts some stuff down before the rest of the army comes to clean up.

Letting them keep infiltrate and maybe giving them +1WS/BS or VotLW for free would have made them viable, imo.

Also, allow them to take god damn bikes and jump-packs. Is that really too much to ask?

Yeah so I am just going to stop using Chaos Lords, I get so much more out of a Daemon Prince or a Sorceror. I just don't see the point in even taking them unless I need to make some Elite squads troops.

Juggerlords and/or Black Mace Nurgle Bike Lords both have NEVER failed me. I find that over the course of a battle they are much harder to kill than a DP, and usually kill more. Plus the juggerlords biggest weakness was MC smash attacks, which he no longer has to worry about as much.

The problem with Chosen is that Havocs already do their job for less points. And why kit them out for close combat when half the codex is already dedicated CC.

I've tried Sanctic Daemonology Sorcerers with Thousand Sons and they are stellar. Gate of Infinity, the +1 invul power, and the roaming D-weapon blast are all excellent powers that compliment them well.