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He's been alive since forever, and is certainly capable of doing the things jesus is said to have done (He's capable of much more, but it was fairly early so cut him some slack). I see no reason why he couldnt be.
If I recall my lore correctly, the Emperor guided humanity in many guises over the years, some may have been religious figures, others military leaders and so on. I checked my 6th ed BRB briefly but didn't find it. It might be 40k wiki polluting the lore here but, I do seem to recall the Emperor being born in the neighborhood of Turkey, not to far of a hike to be certain religious figures.
FM Argos
Thunder Hammers and Melta weaponry solve everything...
Boggy Man wrote: My answer no, and he was probably lying about being that old anyway.
What reason would he have to lie about his age? It's not like his age his his biggest selling point (For lack of better word), or even a selling point at all.
Given they are both given mythical superpowers in a number of fictional works, there is certainly a possibility they are the same "person". The Emp was arround in those days at least...
Most likely yes. He was also probably Buddah and most other famous religious figures. He was born around 8000BC and tried to use various elisions to guide man against chaos influences.
If he wasn't the guise of Jesus, jesus never existed in any religious sense. There is no "God" in the 40k universe.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/11 16:10:39
Boggy Man wrote: My answer no, and he was probably lying about being that old anyway.
What reason would he have to lie about his age? It's not like his age his his biggest selling point (For lack of better word), or even a selling point at all.
He lied about his age in order to get into 18+ clubs
The BL novel The Last Church deals with this I believe.
Spoiler:
There the Emperor visits the last Christian priest on Terra, and iirc, it is revealed that the entity worshipped by the priest had been the Emperor all along.
The church the Emperor visits in that story is not a Christian church, it's a religion that does not exist at all in the modern world (it venerates a giant, complex clock, after all). The story makes certain allusions to Judaeo-Christian themes, but it is not the focus of the story.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Psienesis wrote: The church the Emperor visits in that story is not a Christian church, it's a religion that does not exist at all in the modern world (it venerates a giant, complex clock, after all). The story makes certain allusions to Judaeo-Christian themes, but it is not the focus of the story.
No, it is clearly stated it is a Christian church. The Emperor names the Crusades as an example of why religion is bad for humanity, and says to the priest that it was 'In name of your religion'.
Spoiler:
‘In the name of your religion, a holy man launched a war with the battle cry of “Deus Vult”, which means “God wills it” in one of the ancient tongues of Old Earth. His warriors were charged with destroying enemies in a far-off kingdom, but first they fell upon those in their own lands who opposed the war. Thousands were dragged from their homes and hacked to death or burned alive. Then, satisfied their homeland was secure, the zealous legions plundered their way thousands of miles to the holy city they were to liberate. Upon reaching it, they killed every inhabitant to “purify” the symbolic city of taint. I remember one of their leaders saying that he rode in blood up to the knees and even to his horse’s bridle, by the just and marvellous judgement of God.’
He also mentions the massacre of Béziers, stating that the man responsible for that followed the same god as the priest.
Spoiler:
‘If it were one event, I might agree with you,’ replied Revelation, ‘but just a hundred or so years later, another holy man declared war on a sect of his own church. His warriors laid siege to the sect’s stronghold in ancient Franc, and when the city fell his generals asked their leader how they might tell the faithful from the traitor among the captives. This man, who followed your god, ordered the warriors to “Kill them all. God will know His own”. Nearly twenty thousand men, women and children were slaughtered. Worst of all, the hunt for any that had escaped the siege led to the establishment of an organisation known as the Inquisition, a dreadful, monstrous plague of hysteria that gave its agents free rein to stretch, burn, pierce and break their victims on fiendish pain machines to force them to confess to disbelief and identify fellow transgressors. Later, with most of their enemies hunted down and killed, the Inquisition shifted its focus to wychcraft, and priests tortured untold thousands of women into confessing that they engaged in unnatural acts with daemons. They were then burned or hanged for their confessions and this hysteria raged for three centuries in a dozen nations, a madness that saw whole towns exterminated and over a hundred thousand dead.’
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/11 17:17:43
I must say, the "Emperor was born of the ritual sacrifice of a thousand shamans and has been wacthing over mankind for millenia under varous guises" is a firm candidate for the "Worst fluff piece ever" thread in my books. I know it's from the revered Realm of Chaos books, but so is the daemonic gift of incontrollable flatulence.
IMHO, one of the chief ironies in the fluff is the fact that the Emperor, despite being worshipped as such, is NOT a god. However, if an undying, almighty humanoid thought-form born of the aggregated essence of several supernatural beings is not a god, I don't know what is.
War does not determine who is right - only who is left.
Yes, it's quite obvious in the story that the Emperor is conflating all gods of any flavor with the Judaeo-Christian God, but this church bears only a passing resemblance to anything recognizable as one (again, the focus on the clock, which is an allusion to the "Great Watchmaker", which is a deist belief, which is something that the Emperor would probably not care about, as it's less a worship and more just a concept).
But the event of this story is happening during the Unification Wars on Terra, which is like M28 (you can tell by the Emperor's use of the word "Franc"). This priest has no idea what the hell the Emperor is talking about (or shouldn't, given what we know of pre-Imperium Terra, the history books and educational base needed to know this has been missing for like 15,000 years at this point). There are also comments on the Techno-Barbarians following the Emperor.
Ironic, isn't it, that the Emperor would later go on to found his own Inquisition by his own word, giving them more authority than the medieval Inquisition could ever dream of?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Psienesis wrote: Yes, it's quite obvious in the story that the Emperor is conflating all gods of any flavor with the Judaeo-Christian God, but this church bears only a passing resemblance to anything recognizable as one (again, the focus on the clock, which is an allusion to the "Great Watchmaker", which is a deist belief, which is something that the Emperor would probably not care about, as it's less a worship and more just a concept).
But the event of this story is happening during the Unification Wars on Terra, which is like M28 (you can tell by the Emperor's use of the word "Franc"). This priest has no idea what the hell the Emperor is talking about (or shouldn't, given what we know of pre-Imperium Terra, the history books and educational base needed to know this has been missing for like 15,000 years at this point). There are also comments on the Techno-Barbarians following the Emperor.
Ironic, isn't it, that the Emperor would later go on to found his own Inquisition by his own word, giving them more authority than the medieval Inquisition could ever dream of?
IMHO, one of the chief ironies in the fluff is the fact that the Emperor, despite being worshipped as such, is NOT a god. However, if an undying, almighty humanoid thought-form born of the aggregated essence of several supernatural beings is not a god, I don't know what is.
The dead man on the Golden Throne may not be the Warp-entity birthed by the faith and worship of quintillions of human beings. They just share a name.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/11 17:26:49
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Agent_Tremolo wrote: I must say, the "Emperor was born of the ritual sacrifice of a thousand shamans and has been wacthing over mankind for millenia under varous guises" is a firm candidate for the "Worst fluff piece ever" thread in my books..
It's a better idea than 'There was no father... I can't explain it...'
Psienesis wrote: Yes, it's quite obvious in the story that the Emperor is conflating all gods of any flavor with the Judaeo-Christian God, but this church bears only a passing resemblance to anything recognizable as one (again, the focus on the clock, which is an allusion to the "Great Watchmaker", which is a deist belief, which is something that the Emperor would probably not care about, as it's less a worship and more just a concept).
But the event of this story is happening during the Unification Wars on Terra, which is like M28 (you can tell by the Emperor's use of the word "Franc"). This priest has no idea what the hell the Emperor is talking about (or shouldn't, given what we know of pre-Imperium Terra, the history books and educational base needed to know this has been missing for like 15,000 years at this point). There are also comments on the Techno-Barbarians following the Emperor.
Ironic, isn't it, that the Emperor would later go on to found his own Inquisition by his own word, giving them more authority than the medieval Inquisition could ever dream of?
it's worth noting that assuming it survived until the reunification war, Chrisinanity would likely have evolved to be.. fairly differnt from what it's now been. Chrisinanity right now is only 2000 years old give or take. So it's entirely possiable that the writer's intent was that this was a church born of and evolved from christinaity but not one we'd reckongize at all as being it.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
In a lot of books it mentions how humanity had moved on long ago from believing in silly things like gods this was during the hours heresy before chaos had been discovered by humanity for the most part but then it took a full turn and now everyones waving their hands shouting praise thinking the emperors a god it's quite silly...
RileyJessup wrote: In a lot of books it mentions how humanity had moved on long ago from believing in silly things like gods this was during the hours heresy before chaos had been discovered by humanity for the most part but then it took a full turn and now everyones waving their hands shouting praise thinking the emperors a god it's quite silly...
it's not silly at all. you need to examine context of statements. the "humanity has no need for silly things like gods" is mostly a statement being made by Space Marines, Primarchs and people who chit chat with them. which means fairly highly placed people who, for obvious reasons, are going to be the strongest supporters of the party line. and even THERE you have disagreement. (the word bearers for example clearly did not belive humanity had evolved beyond a need for the divine) . for most people religon had only recently been swept away with the core concepts lingering. at the same time you had the faith of the emperor already spreading due to Lorgar. it may have remained in cult status except when the Heresy happened, well TERRIABLE STUFF was going down. in times of crisis people are more inclined to turn to faith.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Psienesis wrote: Yes, it's quite obvious in the story that the Emperor is conflating all gods of any flavor with the Judaeo-Christian God, but this church bears only a passing resemblance to anything recognizable as one (again, the focus on the clock, which is an allusion to the "Great Watchmaker", which is a deist belief, which is something that the Emperor would probably not care about, as it's less a worship and more just a concept).
But the event of this story is happening during the Unification Wars on Terra, which is like M28 (you can tell by the Emperor's use of the word "Franc"). This priest has no idea what the hell the Emperor is talking about (or shouldn't, given what we know of pre-Imperium Terra, the history books and educational base needed to know this has been missing for like 15,000 years at this point). There are also comments on the Techno-Barbarians following the Emperor.
Ironic, isn't it, that the Emperor would later go on to found his own Inquisition by his own word, giving them more authority than the medieval Inquisition could ever dream of?
it's worth noting that assuming it survived until the reunification war, Chrisinanity would likely have evolved to be.. fairly differnt from what it's now been. Chrisinanity right now is only 2000 years old give or take. So it's entirely possiable that the writer's intent was that this was a church born of and evolved from christinaity but not one we'd reckongize at all as being it.
Perhaps, though that is why I say that the church in the story is not a Christian one, simply one somewhat flavored by Western religion that the average reader would recognize. That's basically everything in 40K.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Boggy Man wrote: My answer no, and he was probably lying about being that old anyway.
What reason would he have to lie about his age? It's not like his age his his biggest selling point (For lack of better word), or even a selling point at all.
Well, he never states who or what he is, perhaps not "lying", but letting people believe he's the guiding force behind humanity. But a few things don't add up;
The great crusade was still chasing down STCs. The greatest scientist who ever lived, and who has a 1st hand working knowledge of technology from all ages can't replicate it?
The greatest psyker 5evah doesn't understand how chaos works? (Blaming its rise on worship rather than emotion?)
The guiding force behind humanity, doesn't understand that human beings have feelings? (His treatment of Angron and Logar)
The founder of most religions doesn't understand their contribution to human achievement, or that an atheist world view can feed chaos even more? (Hitler, Mao, Stalin)
The pinnacle of strength and martial perfection almost got killed by a big ol' ork?
Most of what we know about the emperor is myth upon myth. In my view he's nothing but a very powerful mutant psyker from around the time of the Dark Age of Technology, who learned the trick of syphoning the souls of other psykers and adding their power to his own. (Just my conspiracy theory, take it for what it is.) He displays all the egocentrism, megalomania and lack of foresight one would expect from such a creature, and absolutely none of the empathy or wisdom a near divine ancient soul would possess. To quote a wise old alcoholic murderer " He's just some a-hole in a robot suit. He's not Space Jesus!"
I notice my posts seem to bring threads to a screeching halt. Considering the content of most threads on dakka, you're welcome.
Boggy Man wrote: My answer no, and he was probably lying about being that old anyway.
What reason would he have to lie about his age? It's not like his age his his biggest selling point (For lack of better word), or even a selling point at all.
Well, he never states who or what he is, perhaps not "lying", but letting people believe he's the guiding force behind humanity. But a few things don't add up;
The great crusade was still chasing down STCs. The greatest scientist who ever lived, and who has a 1st hand working knowledge of technology from all ages can't replicate it?
The greatest psyker 5evah doesn't understand how chaos works? (Blaming its rise on worship rather than emotion?)
The guiding force behind humanity, doesn't understand that human beings have feelings? (His treatment of Angron and Logar)
The founder of most religions doesn't understand their contribution to human achievement, or that an atheist world view can feed chaos even more? (Hitler, Mao, Stalin)
The pinnacle of strength and martial perfection almost got killed by a big ol' ork?
Most of what we know about the emperor is myth upon myth. In my view he's nothing but a very powerful mutant psyker from around the time of the Dark Age of Technology, who learned the trick of syphoning the souls of other psykers and adding their power to his own. (Just my conspiracy theory, take it for what it is.) He displays all the egocentrism, megalomania and lack of foresight one would expect from such a creature, and absolutely none of the empathy or wisdom a near divine ancient soul would possess. To quote a wise old alcoholic murderer " He's just some a-hole in a robot suit. He's not Space Jesus!"
1. There is a difference between knowing how something works and being able to teach an entire species the same thing. STC's just make everything so much easier so you may as well get them not to mention he still needed the Mechanicum on team so they needed to be kept happy.
2.So? It's not like anyone understands Chaos and it stands to reason it can't be understood seeing as it's Chaos.
3. They were treated badly because the Emperor thought they wouldn't be too badly affected. This doesn't mean the Emperor doesn't understand people just that he overestimated the Primarchs.
4. How does an athiest view feed Chaos more?
5. Being the best warrior doesn't mean you're unbeatable just that you're good. The Ork was probably incredibly skilled as well and luck always has a part in these things.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
aj laveaux wrote: Of course he was Jesus, and Mohammed and Moses and Buddha and Elvis Presley. (Joseph Smith was a hoax).
The emperor's guise today is Barack Obama. That's why he won't show anyone his birth certificate.
LOL
I mean, we're talking about two fictional characters here with incredibly vague descriptions of their lives. According to lore, I don't think so, but its one of those vague things that you can kind of mold to your own imagination. GO NUTZ
"We are the Red Sorcerers of Prospero, damned in the eyes of our fellows, and this is to be how our story ends, in betrayal and bloodshed. No...you may find it nobler to suffer your fate, but I will take arms against it." -Ahzek Ahriman
1250 Points of The Prodigal Sons
aj laveaux wrote: Of course he was Jesus, and Mohammed and Moses and Buddha and Elvis Presley. (Joseph Smith was a hoax).
The emperor's guise today is Barack Obama. That's why he won't show anyone his birth certificate.
LOL
I mean, we're talking about two fictional characters here with incredibly vague descriptions of their lives. According to lore, I don't think so, but its one of those vague things that you can kind of mold to your own imagination. GO NUTZ
If Barack Obama's the Emperor call Slaneesh and tell he/her I'm down to party.
"I prayed to that corpse for a millenia with no response, what makes you think he'll answer you?"
2000 Loki Snaketongue and the Serpents of Malice
Agent_Tremolo wrote: I must say, the "Emperor was born of the ritual sacrifice of a thousand shamans and has been wacthing over mankind for millenia under varous guises" is a firm candidate for the "Worst fluff piece ever" thread in my books. I know it's from the revered Realm of Chaos books, but so is the daemonic gift of incontrollable flatulence.
IMHO, one of the chief ironies in the fluff is the fact that the Emperor, despite being worshipped as such, is NOT a god. However, if an undying, almighty humanoid thought-form born of the aggregated essence of several supernatural beings is not a god, I don't know what is.
I don't recall which dakkanought thought of it, but they came up with a theory that the 40k universe isn't in the year 40,000+ at all, and instead was a much earlier point in time.
The idea of this came about when they noticed the disturbing lack of history in the 40k timeline. While IRL timelines go much like "Month 4, another political overhaul takes place, theocracy enforced", "month 5, rioting brings city to knees", "year 7, new war in middle east" etc, the 40k universe has massive gaps. For the IOM, a century's worth of events is what we'd call the average month.
In the end, they came to the conclusion that after humanity got separated by warpstorms, the Emperor (as a warlord on earth) came to power and fluffed the whole history of humanity so as to strengthen his position. by the "31st millenium", good old empy was getting high on juvenats and was at most a few hundred years old. This lack of age then explains his lack of wisdom throughout the heresy era.
THEREFORE, the Emperor is a man built up on technology, superstition and lies.
Which I much prefer as a timeline, even if it is technically FanFic.
The founder of most religions doesn't understand their contribution to human achievement, or that an atheist world view can feed chaos even more? (Hitler, Mao, Stalin)
Athiest worldviews do not usually advocate genocide. And Hitler was far from an Atheist.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/13 05:05:09
The founder of most religions doesn't understand their contribution to human achievement, or that an atheist world view can feed chaos even more? (Hitler, Mao, Stalin)
I'm not going to debate real life religon with you (that way lies madness). other then note that in Hitler's case, anti-semitism has it's roots in religion and that in all three's case the persecution of churches was more a matter of real politik then anything with religious drives behind it.
moving back on topic though...
you need to look at it this way.
The Emperor set up various religions in an attempt to protect humanity from Chaos. it had previously proven to be the most effective way of shielding humanity... to a degree. unforuntatly it seemed that every religon was corrupted down the line by unscruplus clerics. who take a religon whose core principal includes "thou shalt not kill" and calls a crusade. The Emperor proably decided that the idea of religions just wasn't WORKING and that instead he'd try to starve chaos with pure logic and reason. so it's not that the Emperor had no appreciation for religion. just he'd been trying it for god-emperor only knows how long, and it had been proving to have VERY mixed results. so he thought he'd try a differnt approuch.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/07/13 08:14:21
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
The founder of most religions doesn't understand their contribution to human achievement, or that an atheist world view can feed chaos even more? (Hitler, Mao, Stalin)
I'm not going to debate real life religon with you (that way lies madness)...
Yes, let's please not go there. My point is that atheism is no more rational or pacifist in practice than theologism. PEOPLE feed chaos. It's human nature to be violent and sectarian. And if the emperor HAD been around for all of human history, he would know this.
you need to look at it this way.
The Emperor set up various religions in an attempt to protect humanity from Chaos. it had previously proven to be the most effective way of shielding humanity... to a degree. unforuntatly it seemed that every religon was corrupted down the line by unscruplus clerics. who take a religon whose core principal includes "thou shalt not kill" and calls a crusade. The Emperor proably decided that the idea of religions just wasn't WORKING and that instead he'd try to starve chaos with pure logic and reason. so it's not that the Emperor had no appreciation for religion. just he'd been trying it for god-emperor only knows how long, and it had been proving to have VERY mixed results. so he thought he'd try a differnt approuch.
You're just saying that as because of raisins. Face it, you not only serve a rotting corpse, you serve a dumb rotting corpse, who is dumb. Choaz 4evers!!
Seriously though, the problem is that he's a fictional character whose motivations and actions don't jibe with his supposed nature due to the disjointed way 40k fluff is written. That's what happen when nerds like us try to rationalize loopholes; you wind up with theories like "Tom Bombadil is the Witch King."
I notice my posts seem to bring threads to a screeching halt. Considering the content of most threads on dakka, you're welcome.
The founder of most religions doesn't understand their contribution to human achievement, or that an atheist world view can feed chaos even more? (Hitler, Mao, Stalin)
I'm not going to debate real life religon with you (that way lies madness)...
Yes, let's please not go there. My point is that atheism is no more rational or pacifist in practice than theologism. PEOPLE feed chaos. It's human nature to be violent and sectarian. And if the emperor HAD been around for all of human history, he would know this.
you need to look at it this way.
The Emperor set up various religions in an attempt to protect humanity from Chaos. it had previously proven to be the most effective way of shielding humanity... to a degree. unforuntatly it seemed that every religon was corrupted down the line by unscruplus clerics. who take a religon whose core principal includes "thou shalt not kill" and calls a crusade. The Emperor proably decided that the idea of religions just wasn't WORKING and that instead he'd try to starve chaos with pure logic and reason. so it's not that the Emperor had no appreciation for religion. just he'd been trying it for god-emperor only knows how long, and it had been proving to have VERY mixed results. so he thought he'd try a differnt approuch.
You're just saying that as because of raisins. Face it, you not only serve a rotting corpse, you serve a dumb rotting corpse, who is dumb. Choaz 4evers!!
Seriously though, the problem is that he's a fictional character whose motivations and actions don't jibe with his supposed nature due to the disjointed way 40k fluff is written. That's what happen when nerds like us try to rationalize loopholes; you wind up with theories like "Tom Bombadil is the Witch King."
well no I'm saying that because it's the explination. the emperor created past religions in an attempt to fight chaos, and it kept back firing. now that said, the plan he tried to replace it didn't work eaither and we ended up on "plan B"
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Gashrakk Da Flash's Split Grin Bad Moon Orks - 1,850 pts
1250 Points of The Prodigal Sons 
2000 Loki Snaketongue and the Serpents of Malice 
My point is that atheism is no more rational or pacifist in practice than theologism. PEOPLE feed chaos. It's human nature to be violent and sectarian. And if the emperor HAD been around for all of human history, he would know this.