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Hello, everyone! I'm pretty new to the game, and I'm having trouble taking on my friends WoC army. We have been playing at 1500 pts. I'm playing the Empire, and my abundance of war machines and guns seem to be able to handle everything except for this guy:

Exalted Hero with:
Talisman of Preservation
Mark of Tzeentch
Third Eye of Tzeentch
Deamonic Mount
Shield
Great Weapon

This combo seems to make this guy almost unkillable. Against shooting, he starts with a 1+ armor save. If he fails his armor save, the Talisman and the Mark give him a 3+ ward, while the Third Eye lets him reroll his ward saves results of a 1, so he only has a 1 in 6 chance of outright failing his ward save outright, with a 2 in 3 chance of succeeding both the first roll and the reroll. This hero is usually independent, and hunts down my war machines and handgunner units, neutralizing at least one thing every turn, starting on turn two. I have seen him single handedly kill a 30 man block of halberdiers supported by a warrior priest and a BSB, while taking only one wound in return.

So, this dude is awesome, and kudos to my opponent for the build (though I'm sure that this build must exist elsewhere). Anyway, how would you guys handle this character? Is it worth trying to kill him, or am I better off tooling out a General, maybe on a griffon, to hunt him down and tie him up in combat while the rest of my army attempts to shoot his to pieces? What do you all think? Any tips, even just general or Empire specific tactics, would be much appreciated!

Ah the famous Hortense lord. Probably one of the hardest characters to kill outright. you can try to beat fire with fire, although the chaos lord will probably tank through. Best bet is to beat him on combat res and get him to flee. His attacks are limited in number so you should use that against him.

Firstly he has a 3+ in combat(great weapon means no shield) also take other tricksters shard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I assume he has enchanted shield as it is necessary for the 1+ 3++

This is a super standard combo, it exists everywhere. The difference is that usually it's taken with a disk to give him flying, which makes him even MORE ridiculous because now he's getting exactly where he needs to go every time and just zipping over things like it's nothing when he wants to charge. I run him as my BSB and he's ungodly annoying (enchanted shield instead of regular shield, and disk instead of daemonic mount).

What brings me great sadistic joy when I run him is when the enemy throws everything they have into him. I want to paint a big bullseye on him at this point. He's stood up to an entire DE's shooting phase all being directed at him without taking a scratch. My coworker routinely turns all his dwarven cannons at him the instant he hits the table. It's glorious, because even on the VERY rare occasion that he does die, he's tied up so much of the opposing army that my real threats can get into close combat.

So what do I hate? I hate getting blocked up by chaff all game. I'd never run him into a block of 30 halberdiers, not because I don't think he'd eventually win, but because he's not doing what he's really good at. He's fantastic at troubleshooting small units of tough things, like monsters, war machines, cavalry, etc. He's terrible at taking out hordes. Yes, he'll eventually win. No, it won't be worth it. He'll never break any big blocks with steadfast. He'll just whittle away at them for a while. I hate it when my opponent realizes he can actually kill my Skullcrushers with those big war machines and shoots them instead of my unkillable hero.

And what do I REALLY hate? Looking at combat res and having dealt 4 wounds, but staring at three extra ranks, a war banner, a BSB, a flank, a rear, and a charge. Then he runs. And he dies. Combat res is a huge killer, and if you can pin him down with multiple units to stack combat res high enough in your favor then you can run him off with ease.

So in short, the last thing you want to do is try and kill him. If he starts going all domino in the back of your lines, grit your teeth and ignore him rather than try to turn your whole army on him. Get those last shots off with your cannons that you can on targets that need it (Skullcrushers, oh god hit the Skullcrushers) instead of trying to take him out in vain. You'll take losses, but at least you'll have made it a trade instead of a loss. Focus on killing the rest of his army instead.

(random edit)

You know in an MMO where there's the 'tank', and you sometimes wonder what's keeping the big boss from just running over and squishing the healer? You're the big boss. The unkillable hero is the tank. Go squish something else.

A barded daemonic mount would make it 2+ without a shield. if he is a lord level character, you could also give him the dragon helm.

Steam Tank. Or a Light Council. Banishment will toast him. pretty well. Additionally Light magic is super good for empire anyways.

Thanks all for the great advice. I'll give some of this a try and see if I can't pull off a win this week!

Like others have said beating him with combat res and running him down is really your best bet to kill him.
Finding a way to just tarpit him and effectively remove him from the game is most effective too just try to find the cheapest way to mitigate him
But these are just rehashes of the advice everyone has already given.
If you feel you must kill him.
You can try Lore of Metal with searing doom. Once cast you will be wounding on a 2 plus so the odds of causing the wound are in your favor. It's just the 3+ rerolling 1's.

Or take Karl Franz with Ghal Maraz..he';ll come in at 370pts so he needs to be sure to get into combat with that Hero, then his hero must challenge and the he essentially will be making 4 ward saves, he will take D3 wounds if he fails his ward. I know big 'if'

Evertas said it best though, plan for him to run around.
spread your units out he shouldn't be able to get to more than about 3 units in the game. if he is hunting warmachines. Ignore him.
Once you see his placement of the hero, plan ahead for what he is going to go after and come to terms with that. If he is after one thing he is leaving another alone.

As an after thought...if he's on a daemonic mount and not a disk (most of us are used to seeing him on a disk of tzeentch.) You can easily control his marching and slow him down with a 98 point unit of pistoliers..pestering from behind. If he manages to attack your pistoliers...and you have placed them well you have kept him away from your more valuable cannons etc, for another possible 2 turns. Or if luck is on your side even more.

I play WoC and getting Tarpitted by a big static combat rez unit is frustrating. If he is not on disc control his movement and redirect or tie him up. I am not super familiar with Empire because I don't get that match up often, but I can tell you This guy stood in a slap fight with a frost phoenix for 5 turns a couple of weeks ago. Yes the frost phoenix did nothing all game but neither did my troubleshooting hero. The best way IMO to handle this guy is go with an Egyptian approach. It is all about denial! lock him down and ignore him and go for better match ups and take out more important things.

I agree that you have 4 real options:

1. Tarpit
2. Avoid
3. Banishment (high str.)
4. Beat and run down in CC

Any one of those is good enough and should be doable with any army.

The first time I tried this build, a cannonball went straight through his head and killed him at the top of round one.

Odds of failing the ward save once hit and wounded are 4/18? So it is certainly not a reliable option. But if you don't have a worthwhile shot lined up on anything else, why not. Maybe you'll get lucky.

Throwing a few boltthrower shots at him is a good way to go. Goes right throw the armor, and after you hit him with 3-4 shots he's bound to fail one of his ward saves. Then you only have to roll a 3+ to kill him with the first shot that gets through.

Cannons work, if you can afford to shoot him with them instead of other scary targets.

Otherwise, yeah. Tarpitting and killing him with combat rez.

Edit: steed gives 3 wounds, right! Thanks for the correction. 5+ to one-shot with a BT then. Still not bad.

Warptide wrote:
Throwing a few boltthrower shots at him is a good way to go. Goes right throw the armor, and after you hit him with 3-4 shots he's bound to fail one of his ward saves. Then you only have to roll a 3+ to kill him with the first shot that gets through.
Cannons work, if you can afford to shoot him with them instead of other scary targets.
Otherwise, yeah. Tarpitting and killing him with combat rez.

He's got 3 wounds. He's on a daemon steed, which has 3, he becomes monstrous cav, and as such, is now T5 W3, with 1+ armor and 3++ reroll 1's.

Best Solution?
Arch Lector, enchated shield, heavy armor, the White Cloak, Van Horstmans Speculum, barded steed.
1+ armor, 5++ ward, 2++ vs fire. Best of all, you switch stats.
He becomes T4 S4 A2, Init 4, you become S5 T5 A4, Init 6.

He swings twice at S6 (great weapon) and hits on 4+ (-1 to hit from white cloak), wounds on 3+ (since your T5), and you save on 4+ armor followed by 5+ ward.
His steed gets 2 attacks, hits on 4+, wounds on 4+, and you save on 3+/5++.

The net effect is neither of you is likely to do any wounds; which is exactly what you want.

Stick this guy in a unit of Reiksguard knights with a warbanner and musician. You tank the hero, and have +2 combat res, + stubborn if things go sideways.
While tough to kill, he's not going to like taking break tests at leadership 6.

Chaos being forced to challenge is very easy to exploit via the Speculum.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Warptide wrote:
Throwing a few boltthrower shots at him is a good way to go. Goes right throw the armor, and after you hit him with 3-4 shots he's bound to fail one of his ward saves. Then you only have to roll a 3+ to kill him with the first shot that gets through.
Cannons work, if you can afford to shoot him with them instead of other scary targets.
Otherwise, yeah. Tarpitting and killing him with combat rez.

He's got 3 wounds. He's on a daemon steed, which has 3, he becomes monstrous cav, and as such, is now T5 W3, with 1+ armor and 3++ reroll 1's.

Best Solution?
Arch Lector, enchated shield, heavy armor, the White Cloak, Van Horstmans Speculum, barded steed.
1+ armor, 5++ ward, 2++ vs fire. Best of all, you switch stats.
He becomes T4 S4 A2, Init 4, you become S5 T5 A4, Init 6.

He swings twice at S6 (great weapon) and hits on 4+ (-1 to hit from white cloak), wounds on 3+ (since your T5), and you save on 4+ armor followed by 5+ ward.
His steed gets 2 attacks, hits on 4+, wounds on 4+, and you save on 3+/5++.

The net effect is neither of you is likely to do any wounds; which is exactly what you want.

Stick this guy in a unit of Reiksguard knights with a warbanner and musician. You tank the hero, and have +2 combat res, + stubborn if things go sideways.
While tough to kill, he's not going to like taking break tests at leadership 6.

Chaos being forced to challenge is very easy to exploit via the Speculum.

-Matt

The one problem with that is that you only swap the Characters' characteristics and not the mounts (as it specifically says so under the VHS item description). So the exalted hero will still be toughness 5 and the Arch Lector will only be toughness 4.

I have thus far killed him with a single Bolt of Change flung out from some horrors, and a single Warp Gaze (i.e. bolt thrower) from my derpy BS3 soul grinder And have failed to hurt him in the other two games I faced him ...

- Salvage

As he has a GW he will be str6, and chaos lord is t5 as standard without the mount. I add in the dawnstone as well for giggles and OTS.

Arcane unforging to bust the ToP. It is amazing how WoC players panic when you kick the crutch out from under them.

Hinge

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Warptide wrote:
Throwing a few boltthrower shots at him is a good way to go. Goes right throw the armor, and after you hit him with 3-4 shots he's bound to fail one of his ward saves. Then you only have to roll a 3+ to kill him with the first shot that gets through.
Cannons work, if you can afford to shoot him with them instead of other scary targets.
Otherwise, yeah. Tarpitting and killing him with combat rez.

He's got 3 wounds. He's on a daemon steed, which has 3, he becomes monstrous cav, and as such, is now T5 W3, with 1+ armor and 3++ reroll 1's.

I'm new to WHF and just wondering how he gets to T5 and 1+AS? AS= 4+from chaos armour, +shield(on ranged only?), +Cavalry, making AS 2+(when hit from range) and 3+(when in CC because of GW being 2h)? And his base T=4 and I can't see a modifier.

Sorry, if it's really obvious >.<

Monstrous cavalry uses the higher t value ergo the deamon mounts t of 5 is conferred.

He gets to a 1+ as he has chaos armor 4+ plus mounted plus barded plus shield. Other ways of hitting itvswap the shield for dragonhelm or the mount for a disc and scaled skin. (That build also has fly.)

MightyWizard wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Warptide wrote:
Throwing a few boltthrower shots at him is a good way to go. Goes right throw the armor, and after you hit him with 3-4 shots he's bound to fail one of his ward saves. Then you only have to roll a 3+ to kill him with the first shot that gets through.
Cannons work, if you can afford to shoot him with them instead of other scary targets.
Otherwise, yeah. Tarpitting and killing him with combat rez.

He's got 3 wounds. He's on a daemon steed, which has 3, he becomes monstrous cav, and as such, is now T5 W3, with 1+ armor and 3++ reroll 1's.

I'm new to WHF and just wondering how he gets to T5 and 1+AS? AS= 4+from chaos armour, +shield(on ranged only?), +Cavalry, making AS 2+(when hit from range) and 3+(when in CC because of GW being 2h)? And his base T=4 and I can't see a modifier.

Sorry, if it's really obvious >.<

When you''re mounted on a monsterous beasts, you pick the highest toughness and wound.

As for his armour.
Chaos Armour 4+
Shield 3+
Mounted 2+
Barding 1+


Edit: Ninjas, ninjas everywhere.

Like most said you have a couple of choices and all depend on your list.

1st and best choice
Somehow get it into combat with a big CR block and break it to static CR, Unfortunately if your opponent has half a brain he will never let his lord get in this position

2nd choice
ignore it and try to not to feed it units it can easily kill. Examples being small units of fast cav or war machines.

3rd choice
Saturate it with hits, if you have a lot of BS shooting you will get wounds through and eventually kill it. This comes at a cost as 99% of the time you are better off focusing on the rest of his army and (see option 1 or 2)

4th Choice
Magic it, I have seen that thing popped in one turn by a big searing doom and then a golden hounds. You are wounding on two's and he only gets his ward save.I have seen light councils banish it in one turn as well.

Well if this was 7th ed I'd raise a filthy unit of 15 odd zombies in one turn and then vanhel's them right into his face..... Someone's spending their game twiddling their thumbs.

Banishment is the best possible way to go, Just make sure you have a couple lvl 1 on light for enough Str bonus to cancle his armor. The his 3rd eye becomes useless and he is rerolling his 3++