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You do realize they are selling extremely overpriced formed plastic and people are paying for it hand over fist? The markup has to be insane for what it costs material wise. I can't see how they wouldn't be doing well.

RJCarrot wrote:
You do realize they are selling extremely overpriced formed plastic and people are paying for it hand over fist? The markup has to be insane for what it costs material wise. I can't see how they wouldn't be doing well.

Then you should probably look a little deeper into the facts. They aren't on Death's door, but they appear to be pulling into the driveway.

RJCarrot wrote:
I can't see how they wouldn't be doing well.

Their [physical shops must cost an absolute fortune. They may well be selling plastic with an extreme mark up but they are also keeping dozens if not hundreds of inefficient shops open around the world.

RJCarrot wrote:
You do realize they are selling extremely overpriced formed plastic and people are paying for it hand over fist? The markup has to be insane for what it costs material wise. I can't see how they wouldn't be doing well.

Shock do you think GW know what they are selling things for!

Of course there is a high markup they have to pay to cover all of their costs of production, design etc etc etc.
It is the same for many items, what do you think starbucks costs to make around 25p per cup retail £2.50. Nike trainer cost £5, retail £50.

Any company will charge the worth of their product and the worth is determined by what people are prepared to pay for it, and people are prepared to pay £25 for a tactical squad that will have only cost about 50p in raw materials.

IF GW halved their prices people would not buy twice as much product, their sales would see a small increase initially but then tail off, there profits would completely disappear and the company would be bankrupt within a year. Noone said it would be a cheap hobby stop whinging about the price

madd_leeroy wrote:

RJCarrot wrote:
You do realize they are selling extremely overpriced formed plastic and people are paying for it hand over fist? The markup has to be insane for what it costs material wise. I can't see how they wouldn't be doing well.

Shock do you think GW know what they are selling things for!

Of course there is a high markup they have to pay to cover all of their costs of production, design etc etc etc.
It is the same for many items, what do you think starbucks costs to make around 25p per cup retail £2.50. Nike trainer cost £5, retail £50.

Any company will charge the worth of their product and the worth is determined by what people are prepared to pay for it, and people are prepared to pay £25 for a tactical squad that will have only cost about 50p in raw materials.

IF GW halved their prices people would not buy twice as much product, their sales would see a small increase initially but then tail off, there profits would completely disappear and the company would be bankrupt within a year. Noone said it would be a cheap hobby stop whinging about the price

Bullgak. The fact most of their direct competitors can charge 50% or less for the same or, more often, more product PLUS have to pay to outsource production shows that this is a line of rubbish. GW charges so much because they're arrogant sods and think that customers are rubes and marks who will pay it because it has the GW logo on it, nothing more.

GW charges a ton more because they have hundreds of their own shops that have rents and at least one employee per that wants a salary.

Their competitors don't have those costs...

WayneTheGame wrote:

madd_leeroy wrote:

RJCarrot wrote:
You do realize they are selling extremely overpriced formed plastic and people are paying for it hand over fist? The markup has to be insane for what it costs material wise. I can't see how they wouldn't be doing well.

Shock do you think GW know what they are selling things for!

Of course there is a high markup they have to pay to cover all of their costs of production, design etc etc etc.
It is the same for many items, what do you think starbucks costs to make around 25p per cup retail £2.50. Nike trainer cost £5, retail £50.

Any company will charge the worth of their product and the worth is determined by what people are prepared to pay for it, and people are prepared to pay £25 for a tactical squad that will have only cost about 50p in raw materials.

IF GW halved their prices people would not buy twice as much product, their sales would see a small increase initially but then tail off, there profits would completely disappear and the company would be bankrupt within a year. Noone said it would be a cheap hobby stop whinging about the price

Bullgak. The fact most of their direct competitors can charge 50% or less for the same or, more often, more product PLUS have to pay to outsource production shows that this is a line of rubbish. GW charges so much because they're arrogant sods and think that customers are rubes and marks who will pay it because it has the GW logo on it, nothing more.

Direct competitors, there are none, no one does and can produce miniatures and rules that are compatible in 40K. GW have invested 30 years in developing their brand and universe and have rightly from a business point of view stopped anyone else being able to compete with them. I stand by my comment, that a squad of tactical marines is worth £25 as people will pay that. Just because you choose not to pay that does not diminish the worth of that product.

madd_leeroy wrote:

RJCarrot wrote:
You do realize they are selling extremely overpriced formed plastic and people are paying for it hand over fist? The markup has to be insane for what it costs material wise. I can't see how they wouldn't be doing well.

Shock do you think GW know what they are selling things for!

Of course there is a high markup they have to pay to cover all of their costs of production, design etc etc etc.
It is the same for many items, what do you think starbucks costs to make around 25p per cup retail £2.50. Nike trainer cost £5, retail £50.

Any company will charge the worth of their product and the worth is determined by what people are prepared to pay for it, and people are prepared to pay £25 for a tactical squad that will have only cost about 50p in raw materials.

IF GW halved their prices people would not buy twice as much product, their sales would see a small increase initially but then tail off, there profits would completely disappear and the company would be bankrupt within a year. Noone said it would be a cheap hobby stop whinging about the price

You're conflating worth, value and "the most they can get away with."

Companies will always shoot for the latter, and I have no issue with this, but there is a sweet spot where price and demand equate to the maximum revenue, which isn't necessarily the maximum sale price of each item on a case by case basis. GW appear to have pushed their prices past that point sometime in the last year, while simultaneously appearing to undermine demand through other actions.

Also, FYI, the cost to GW of any of their product, on average, is ~20% of RRP before tax, the information to deduce this is available in their own report. Their cost base is significantly higher because of all the non-manufacturing and development costs they've saddled themselves with.

madd_leeroy wrote:

Direct competitors, there are none, no one does and can produce miniatures and rules that are compatible in 40K.

What? That's not what direct competition means. BMW and Audi car parts aren't compatible, are you saying they're not direct competitors?

madd_leeroy wrote:

Of course there is a high markup they have to pay to cover all of their costs of production, design etc etc etc.

This issue with this line of thinking is that other companies, even very small start ups, are able to produce hard plastic and resin miniatures to at least the same standard as GW but which cost significantly less. In the last year I have bought plastic miniatures from 5 different companies; 2 of them have produced kits that are superior to comparable GW kits (Warlord and Perry Miniatures, both of whom are formed by Ex GW employees by the way) while Hawk Games and Plastic Soldier Company produce excellent kits with no direct comparison. Zvezda kits were a bit ropey but at least they were very cheap.

10-15 years ago it may well have cost £100,000 to create a single multi part hard plastic sprue but that its certainly no longer the case.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

madd_leeroy wrote:

Direct competitors, there are none, no one does and can produce miniatures and rules that are compatible in 40K.

Of course there are, in fact there are a multitude. GW even fought and essentially lost, a high profile legal case against Chapter House Studios for this very reason. As an example I made an Empire army entirely out of Perry plastics as well as a few metal artillery and cavalry models (also from Perry), granted that is WHFB but the point still stands.

OK no one produces rules but then no one seems to want to.

 Palindrome wrote:

madd_leeroy wrote:

Of course there is a high markup they have to pay to cover all of their costs of production, design etc etc etc.

This issue with this line of thinking is that other companies, even very small start ups, are able to produce hard plastic and resin miniatures to at least the same standard as GW but which cost significantly less. In the last year I have bought plastic miniatures from 5 different companies; 2 of them have produced kits that are superior to comparable GW kits (Warlord and Perry Miniatures, both of whom are formed by Ex GW employees by the way) while Hawk Games and Plastic Soldier Company produce excellent kits with no direct comparison. Zvezda kits were a bit ropey but at least they were very cheap.

10-15 years ago it may well have cost £100,000 to create a single multi part hard plastic sprue but that its certainly no longer the case.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

madd_leeroy wrote:

Direct competitors, there are none, no one does and can produce miniatures and rules that are compatible in 40K.

Of course there are, in fact there are a multitude. GW even fought and essentially lost, a high profile legal case against Chapter House Studios for this very reason. As an example I made an Empire army entirely out of Perry plastics as well as a few metal artillery and cavalry models (also from Perry), granted that is WHFB but the point still stands.

OK no one produces rules but then no one seems to want to.

Great news that warlord and perry miniatures sell W40k alternatives, can you send me the link to their website for where they retail a tactical squad equivalent unit of 10 models for £12.50 delivered in the UK then please.


Again, pleased that there are loads of GW competitors out there, can you send me through a link to their website that will no doubt have a huge richly described background about what has happened to create this universe. I also presume that this game will have a relatively active gaming community nearby so i can meet up with other gamers to play games with once a week.......... waiting on the link.

madd_leeroy wrote:
Direct competitors, there are none, no one does and can produce miniatures and rules that are compatible in 40K. GW have invested 30 years in developing their brand and universe and have rightly from a business point of view stopped anyone else being able to compete with them. I stand by my comment, that a squad of tactical marines is worth £25 as people will pay that. Just because you choose not to pay that does not diminish the worth of that product.

Sorry, had to laugh at that statement. Don't start a business and try and attract investors, with a statement like that you are guaranteed not to get any cash.

GW now has a TON of direct competition. Any company that sells miniatures wargames and competes for the consumer's leisure hobby money is a direct competitor. A direct competitor is any company that is in a similar space that can take the revenue from you. Right now, there are a lot of companies doing that to GW and they are all growing while GW is shrinking.

40k is NOT the hobby, contrary to what GW will have you believe. I can use the same argument and say GW better be careful of Corvus Belli because they don't produce miniatures for Infinity and that game is growing like hotcakes right now. Same could be said for Bolt Action, or Malifaux, and many others. Truth is, 40k is one of the absolute worst games (design and playwise) on the market right now in terms of rules and it shows. Be realistic, Dystopian Wars 2.0 outsold 40k 7th edition rules in some areas by factors of 6 or 7 to 1.

madd_leeroy wrote:

 Palindrome wrote:

madd_leeroy wrote:

Of course there is a high markup they have to pay to cover all of their costs of production, design etc etc etc.

This issue with this line of thinking is that other companies, even very small start ups, are able to produce hard plastic and resin miniatures to at least the same standard as GW but which cost significantly less. In the last year I have bought plastic miniatures from 5 different companies; 2 of them have produced kits that are superior to comparable GW kits (Warlord and Perry Miniatures, both of whom are formed by Ex GW employees by the way) while Hawk Games and Plastic Soldier Company produce excellent kits with no direct comparison. Zvezda kits were a bit ropey but at least they were very cheap.

10-15 years ago it may well have cost £100,000 to create a single multi part hard plastic sprue but that its certainly no longer the case.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

madd_leeroy wrote:

Direct competitors, there are none, no one does and can produce miniatures and rules that are compatible in 40K.

Of course there are, in fact there are a multitude. GW even fought and essentially lost, a high profile legal case against Chapter House Studios for this very reason. As an example I made an Empire army entirely out of Perry plastics as well as a few metal artillery and cavalry models (also from Perry), granted that is WHFB but the point still stands.

OK no one produces rules but then no one seems to want to.

Great news that warlord and perry miniatures sell W40k alternatives, can you send me the link to their website for where they retail a tactical squad equivalent unit of 10 models for £12.50 delivered in the UK then please.


Again, pleased that there are loads of GW competitors out there, can you send me through a link to their website that will no doubt have a huge richly described background about what has happened to create this universe. I also presume that this game will have a relatively active gaming community nearby so i can meet up with other gamers to play games with once a week.......... waiting on the link.

Yeah, it's called Privateer Press, they're booming where I live!
One could count Flames of War, but I don't since that's, you know real history, so I'll stick with Privateer Press.
40k alternatives are rarer to see, though to be fair I've not really looked myself. Some (guard, orks, maybe tau, tyranids) would obviously be easier.

 Wayshuba wrote:

madd_leeroy wrote:
Direct competitors, there are none, no one does and can produce miniatures and rules that are compatible in 40K. GW have invested 30 years in developing their brand and universe and have rightly from a business point of view stopped anyone else being able to compete with them. I stand by my comment, that a squad of tactical marines is worth £25 as people will pay that. Just because you choose not to pay that does not diminish the worth of that product.

Sorry, had to laugh at that statement. Don't start a business and try and attract investors, with a statement like that you are guaranteed not to get any cash.

GW now has a TON of direct competition. Any company that sells miniatures wargames and competes for the consumer's leisure hobby money is a direct competitor. A direct competitor is any company that is in a similar space that can take the revenue from you. Right now, there are a lot of companies doing that to GW and they are all growing while GW is shrinking.

40k is NOT the hobby, contrary to what GW will have you believe. I can use the same argument and say GW better be careful of Corvus Belli because they don't produce miniatures for Infinity and that game is growing like hotcakes right now. Same could be said for Bolt Action, or Malifaux, and many others. Truth is, 40k is one of the absolute worst games (design and playwise) on the market right now in terms of rules and it shows. Be realistic, Dystopian Wars 2.0 outsold 40k 7th edition rules in some areas by factors of 6 or 7 to 1.

Oh well if it is the truth that 40k is one of the ABSOLUTE WORST games i won't bother playing it any more, i will bin my 5000pts of figures that i have collected over the last 10 years. ................................................ the thing is i like paying the game, i like paying against my friends that i play it against, we enjoy doing it, maybe i am lucky that if i want to spend £25 or £100 on a box of figures i can do. i want GW to still be there in another 10 years supporting the 40K universe. If you don't fine don't play it but don't come on a 40K forum too.

Wait this is a 40K forum?! Then why does it have all those other sections?

madd_leeroy wrote:

 Wayshuba wrote:

madd_leeroy wrote:
Direct competitors, there are none, no one does and can produce miniatures and rules that are compatible in 40K. GW have invested 30 years in developing their brand and universe and have rightly from a business point of view stopped anyone else being able to compete with them. I stand by my comment, that a squad of tactical marines is worth £25 as people will pay that. Just because you choose not to pay that does not diminish the worth of that product.

Sorry, had to laugh at that statement. Don't start a business and try and attract investors, with a statement like that you are guaranteed not to get any cash.

GW now has a TON of direct competition. Any company that sells miniatures wargames and competes for the consumer's leisure hobby money is a direct competitor. A direct competitor is any company that is in a similar space that can take the revenue from you. Right now, there are a lot of companies doing that to GW and they are all growing while GW is shrinking.

40k is NOT the hobby, contrary to what GW will have you believe. I can use the same argument and say GW better be careful of Corvus Belli because they don't produce miniatures for Infinity and that game is growing like hotcakes right now. Same could be said for Bolt Action, or Malifaux, and many others. Truth is, 40k is one of the absolute worst games (design and playwise) on the market right now in terms of rules and it shows. Be realistic, Dystopian Wars 2.0 outsold 40k 7th edition rules in some areas by factors of 6 or 7 to 1.

Oh well if it is the truth that 40k is one of the ABSOLUTE WORST games i won't bother playing it any more, i will bin my 5000pts of figures that i have collected over the last 10 years. ................................................ the thing is i like paying the game, i like paying against my friends that i play it against, we enjoy doing it, maybe i am lucky that if i want to spend £25 or £100 on a box of figures i can do. i want GW to still be there in another 10 years supporting the 40K universe. If you don't fine don't play it but don't come on a 40K forum too.

Best. Typo. Ever.

Also, the "if you don't like it don't play it or talk about it" is pretty much the most tired, invalid, pointless excuse for an "argument" in circulation around this subject.

Let me reflect that back into "if you don't care enough about 40K to lament it's shortcomings and want it to be better, please stop buying models, playing the game and enjoying yourself, as your actions are making GW think that everything is OK and they don't need to try harder."

LOL damn Ipad

Great news that warlord and perry miniatures sell W40k alternatives, can you send me the link to their website for where they retail a tactical squad equivalent unit of 10 models for £12.50 delivered in the UK then please.

Direct from GW's webstore, the Tactical Marine Squad is £25 for the 10 figures. I don't think SM are as cheap as you imply they are.

But since Perry is a historic war-gaming company, I'm not sure you'll find Tac-Marine equivalents but, here...

https://www.perry-miniatures.com/index.php?cPath=22_62&osCsid=c9pfph6roaecgkpq0drlf3qlc5

Whole page of boxes of troops, ranging in number from 14 to 36, at £20 a box.

Here's Warlord's Judge Dredd box set in metal for £30, 8 metal 28mm figures. Higher priced than GW, yes, but it's metal, and they look phenomenal.

http://store.warlordgames.com/collections/judge-dredd/products/the-justice-department-mega-city-judges-boxed-set

Here's a pack of Hive Gangers, again 8 for £30, and again metal.

http://store.warlordgames.com/collections/judge-dredd/products/mega-city-street-gang

... so, no, GW has hardly cornered the market on imagery and price.

In comparison, here's a Battle-Sister squad direct from GW. 10 Sisters with weapons and wargear. £49.70. Currently out of stock (reasons for which have already been mentioned in this thread).

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Battle-Sister-Squad

I have to say, if you love playing 40K then why not go and play it instead of spending time complaining about people discussing it on forums.

madd_leeroy wrote:

 Wayshuba wrote:

madd_leeroy wrote:
Direct competitors, there are none, no one does and can produce miniatures and rules that are compatible in 40K. GW have invested 30 years in developing their brand and universe and have rightly from a business point of view stopped anyone else being able to compete with them. I stand by my comment, that a squad of tactical marines is worth £25 as people will pay that. Just because you choose not to pay that does not diminish the worth of that product.

Sorry, had to laugh at that statement. Don't start a business and try and attract investors, with a statement like that you are guaranteed not to get any cash.

GW now has a TON of direct competition. Any company that sells miniatures wargames and competes for the consumer's leisure hobby money is a direct competitor. A direct competitor is any company that is in a similar space that can take the revenue from you. Right now, there are a lot of companies doing that to GW and they are all growing while GW is shrinking.

40k is NOT the hobby, contrary to what GW will have you believe. I can use the same argument and say GW better be careful of Corvus Belli because they don't produce miniatures for Infinity and that game is growing like hotcakes right now. Same could be said for Bolt Action, or Malifaux, and many others. Truth is, 40k is one of the absolute worst games (design and playwise) on the market right now in terms of rules and it shows. Be realistic, Dystopian Wars 2.0 outsold 40k 7th edition rules in some areas by factors of 6 or 7 to 1.

Oh well if it is the truth that 40k is one of the ABSOLUTE WORST games i won't bother playing it any more, i will bin my 5000pts of figures that i have collected over the last 10 years. ................................................ the thing is i like paying the game, i like paying against my friends that i play it against, we enjoy doing it, maybe i am lucky that if i want to spend £25 or £100 on a box of figures i can do. i want GW to still be there in another 10 years supporting the 40K universe. If you don't fine don't play it but don't come on a 40K forum too.

Wow, 5000 pts after 10 years in. So you're the one responsible for the bad financial. You're clearly not doing your part to keep Kirby in the life style he is accustomed to.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I have to say, if you love playing 40K then why not go and play it instead of spending time complaining about people discussing it on forums.

Lol Exalted!

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
Wait this is a 40K forum?! Then why does it have all those other sections?

Looks like the GW Whiners Club has another person to add to our "enemies" list...

madd_leeroy wrote:

Great news that warlord and perry miniatures sell W40k alternatives, can you send me the link to their website for where they retail a tactical squad equivalent unit of 10 models for £12.50 delivered in the UK then please.

How about 25 Guardsmen for £25?

 Psienesis wrote:

Great news that warlord and perry miniatures sell W40k alternatives, can you send me the link to their website for where they retail a tactical squad equivalent unit of 10 models for £12.50 delivered in the UK then please.

Direct from GW's webstore, the Tactical Marine Squad is £25 for the 10 figures. I don't think SM are as cheap as you imply they are.

But since Perry is a historic war-gaming company, I'm not sure you'll find Tac-Marine equivalents but, here...

https://www.perry-miniatures.com/index.php?cPath=22_62&osCsid=c9pfph6roaecgkpq0drlf3qlc5

Whole page of boxes of troops, ranging in number from 14 to 36, at £20 a box.

Here's Warlord's Judge Dredd box set in metal for £30, 8 metal 28mm figures. Higher priced than GW, yes, but it's metal, and they look phenomenal.

http://store.warlordgames.com/collections/judge-dredd/products/the-justice-department-mega-city-judges-boxed-set

Here's a pack of Hive Gangers, again 8 for £30, and again metal.

http://store.warlordgames.com/collections/judge-dredd/products/mega-city-street-gang

... so, no, GW has hardly cornered the market on imagery and price.

In comparison, here's a Battle-Sister squad direct from GW. 10 Sisters with weapons and wargear. £49.70. Currently out of stock (reasons for which have already been mentioned in this thread).

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Battle-Sister-Squad

But I don't want to buy historical wargmes i want to buy something comparable with 40k. The Judge dread link seems to be £30 for 8 miniatures not cheaper than £25 for 10 tac marines.

10 not "IG" infantry in metal. £11.95.


25 not "whatever the GW not Victorian British Infantry IG Infantry is" Infantry in plastic. $21.95.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I have to say, if you love playing 40K then why not go and play it instead of spending time complaining about people discussing it on forums.

Because mistakenly i thought this was a place to have a general discussion about 40k, I cannot play right now as i am on a train and it would not be practical to setup a game here. Speaking of which £78 quid to go 100 miles when the diesel will only cost them a portion of that how dare they, i demand that they reduce the prices blah blah blah


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

10 not "IG" infantry in metal. £11.95.


25 not "whatever the GW not Victorian British Infantry IG Infantry is" Infantry in plastic. $21.95.

Brilliant do you think they will pass for Necrons?

 Palindrome wrote:

madd_leeroy wrote:

Great news that warlord and perry miniatures sell W40k alternatives, can you send me the link to their website for where they retail a tactical squad equivalent unit of 10 models for £12.50 delivered in the UK then please.

How about 25 Guardsmen for £25?

Those are OK.

I like the FW Hazardous Environment Cadians better, though.

Five not Terminators. £8.50.

That wasn't so hard.

For not-necrons? that's pretty sweet, actually.

 Kilkrazy wrote:


Five not Terminators. £8.50.

That wasn't so hard.

URL of supplier please

EM4 models too.

http://www.em4miniatures.com/acatalog/ROBOTS.html

It took me several seconds to find these.