Do you really think GW is "going under"?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Grimtuff**

azreal13 wrote:
PhantomViper wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Bartholomew - again, theyre not allowed to do sales. AS in, the UK gov't specifically stopped them from having them.

I'm afraid that I'm going to have to need a citation for this affirmation...

I'm going to have to echo this, firstly because I can't find any evidence for myself, and secondly because it sounds hugely implausible. The only Governmental organisation I can envisage having the power, remit and interest to do this would be the MMC, and I really don't think GW are a big enough part of the toy market (which is what they'd look at, not 'wargaming' which isn't really a defined sector so much as a self generated label) to warrant that action.

Sounds and smells like Redshirt bs spun to some poor unsuspecting kid that has inexplicably become part of Internet lore to me, but I'd be very interested to be proven wrong.

Especially in light of the fact that I bought stuff from GW shops in the 90s at a discount from RRP.

This.

I seem to remember being told some similar yarn by a redshirt when I was younger.

**Kilkrazy**

If it is a piece of internet lore it is one I have never come across before in 10 years on DakkaDakka.

**Selym**

Blacksails wrote:
Just don't confuse your anecdotal evidence for any sort of international conclusion about the state of affairs of GW.

For your data, I've spent roughly 0$ on GW, but a few hundred on other systems/companies.

I still buy into and play 40k, but only previous editions, with all my purchases coming from ebay.

Which makes the local playerbase a dodgy estimate at best.

**Toofast**

We have about 25-30 40k players at my local GW store. It's in a very high traffic area across from a huge shopping mall on route 31 just off I-65 and 459. Finding a game isn't the issue, waiting for a table is because even on weekdays right when the store opens, there will always be 6-8 people in there either painting, trying to get a game in or both. I'm sure this isn't the norm but I'm just saying that moving stores to low rent/low traffic areas and dying player bases is not the case in every GW store. They need to figure out what stores like mine are doing and replicate that in other stores. I moved down here from Columbus a few months ago and the 40k scene at the local GW there was very similar. The store was also in a similar location, across from a huge mall and just off I-71.

**Selym**

Toofast wrote:
We have about 25-30 40k players at my local GW store. It's in a very high traffic area across from a huge shopping mall on route 31 just off I-65 and 459. Finding a game isn't the issue, waiting for a table is because even on weekdays right when the store opens, there will always be 6-8 people in there either painting, trying to get a game in or both. I'm sure this isn't the norm but I'm just saying that moving stores to low rent/low traffic areas and dying player bases is not the case in every GW store. They need to figure out what stores like mine are doing and replicate that in other stores. I moved down here from Columbus a few months ago and the 40k scene at the local GW there was very similar. The store was also in a similar location, across from a huge mall and just off I-71.

My closest GW actually banned pickup games, for the purposes of having 3 "new player" tables. One for LOTR, one for 40k and one for Fantasy. Only the 40k table ever sees any action, and that's because everyone is crowded around the edge trying to paint/build.
They try to do game nights for things like an Apoc battle, but the playerbase has heavily lost interest, considering that even the most basic store game takes an hour or two to set up, another 30 mins+ to put models on the table, and then can take 1-3 hours to do turn one.

**nosferatu1001**

Come to Reading, thriving games night on a friday (also sadly same night my club is on, due to a change in our venue) - very broad player base.

How does it take 2 hours to set up a game? wtf are people DOING in that time??

**TheKbob**

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Come to Reading, thriving games night on a friday (also sadly same night my club is on, due to a change in our venue) - very broad player base.

How does it take 2 hours to set up a game? wtf are people DOING in that time??

I believe it was in relation to the Apoc game. Which, given that many gamers, is understandable. It's like herding cats.

**Rainbow Dash**

Selym wrote:
Toofast wrote:
We have about 25-30 40k players at my local GW store. It's in a very high traffic area across from a huge shopping mall on route 31 just off I-65 and 459. Finding a game isn't the issue, waiting for a table is because even on weekdays right when the store opens, there will always be 6-8 people in there either painting, trying to get a game in or both. I'm sure this isn't the norm but I'm just saying that moving stores to low rent/low traffic areas and dying player bases is not the case in every GW store. They need to figure out what stores like mine are doing and replicate that in other stores. I moved down here from Columbus a few months ago and the 40k scene at the local GW there was very similar. The store was also in a similar location, across from a huge mall and just off I-71.

My closest GW actually banned pickup games, for the purposes of having 3 "new player" tables. One for LOTR, one for 40k and one for Fantasy. Only the 40k table ever sees any action, and that's because everyone is crowded around the edge trying to paint/build.
They try to do game nights for things like an Apoc battle, but the playerbase has heavily lost interest, considering that even the most basic store game takes an hour or two to set up, another 30 mins+ to put models on the table, and then can take 1-3 hours to do turn one.

I don't think the GW here is dumb enough to try that, it certainly is nowhere near as popular as it once was, there's other FLGS (many of them) with more tables, and of course all the other games.

**nosferatu1001**

TheKbob wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Come to Reading, thriving games night on a friday (also sadly same night my club is on, due to a change in our venue) - very broad player base.

How does it take 2 hours to set up a game? wtf are people DOING in that time??

I believe it was in relation to the Apoc game. Which, given that many gamers, is understandable. It's like herding cats.

Nah, gamers herd quite well, you just need someone to direct. Which, if the store is organising should be the black or blue shirt....we managed a large number of apoc games in store without this issue.

Dont get having a table for the hobbit though, that isnt exactly needed in the current CI....

**Toofast**

We were talking about player numbers today. We have 5 hobbit/LOTR "players". I say that because 5 people buy but we haven't really seen them come into the store to play. I am in there 2-3 times a week to get games and I have yet to see a hobbit/LOTR game being played. We have 3 tables, one for displaying models and starter sets and 2 that are either fantasy or 40k depending on who wants to play what. We do clear off the third table once a month and play large games with 2-3 tables pushed together. I'm not sure why the store would ban pickup games. I lost count of how many times someone has come in just to play a pickup game and ended up making an impulse purchase. The only rule here is league games take priority over pickup games. If you are waiting for a table for a fantasy pickup game and 2 guys come in ready to play a 40k league game, they jump you on the waiting list for a table. This makes perfect sense as we need to get so many league games in to qualify for the tournament whereas pickup games can be played any time.

**Kilkrazy**

Maybe the Hobbit people are playing at home, or just collect the figures not even to play the game.

**Fenrir Kitsune**

Barfolomew wrote:
Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
What about the rest of the year when that sales weekend isn't on? If I was in the market for a GW army, I'd just wait for the next sale to appear.
Couple of points

1) You are making the false assumption that the only place that the army can be purchased is via GW. This is means that GW has no incentive to run a sale because they have a captive audience who can only acquire product via GW at full price.

2) You are under estimating the power of "I want it now". I know many, many players who impulse buy items at full price because they have to have it.

3) GW is not the only place to purchase the army. You can buy the vast majority of it from any number of online retailers at a steady 20% discount, year round.

As it is now, GW direct (internet or shop) is the LAST place I would buy an army from. Why would I pay 20% more for the same product? Now if GW did have a sale of 20%+, bundle or not, I may consider purchasing direct from them. GW can the little money from me they get for going through a distributor all the time or they can have a bit more of my money by having sales.

Edit:

The reason the Sanctus Reach: Stormclaw set is selling at any appreciable volume is because it contains $225 worth of product and costs $125, not including the rulebook. That is a 45% discount. If I played Orks or Space Wolves and new someone playing the other, I would consider splitting it with them because it has value.

I'm neither assuming nor underestimating anything. You do appear to be reading a lot into a single line.

**TheKbob**

Kilkrazy wrote:
Maybe the Hobbit people are playing at home, or just collect the figures not even to play the game.

The very, very few people I have seen purchase the miniatures fall into the latter. And I used to hang out at a GW every weekend until recently.

**Aftermath.**

I sold my entire collection about 6 months ago. Over $30,000 worth. Mutliple pro-painted armies, forge world, titans, you name it.

And I am so glad I did. This was around the time the new Tyranid codex came out in 6th, with stronghold assault and the LOW supplement.
The game was unplayable then without house rules.

And I see the state it is in now. Unbound LMFAO, oh I can see how it got worse. And it is not going to turn around guys. The game sucks for any
kind of reasonable, balanced play. Even friendly games where both people okay each others armies, are very questionably balanced.

It feels so good to be free of this crap. I don't miss it one bit, and it feels like a weight lifted off my shoulders.

Having fun on the PS4, and hanging out with friends. Life is good.

My advice: Dump this garbage. It is not worth your time or money.

........End of line

**frozenwastes**

GW isn't the only company producing stuff for the hobby. You can get all sorts of miniatures without being on GW's cash sucking treadmill. I just finished painting up some colonial British infantry for a Victorian Sci-fi dinosaur hunt on Venus.

Get your rules from one place, your miniatures from another, and you'll pretty much guarantee you won't get dragged into a GW style churn and burn situation as the rules and miniatures will each have to stand on their own merits independently rather than the rules being a marketing idea to suck as much money out of you as possible.

You can do this and still play in the 40k or WFB universes. They are basically just mishmashes of other people's ideas. If people stop thinking of direct army list conversions into other rules and think more in story terms and just use the rules to represent things, it's really easy. For example, in Bolt Action tank weapons and tanks themselves are separated into categories based on size. So instead of trying to convert an entire army list you just decide that a lascannon is a heavy anti tank weapon and get playing.

**Davor**

Aftermath. wrote:
I sold my entire collection about 6 months ago. Over $30,000 worth. Mutliple pro-painted armies, forge world, titans, you name it.

And I am so glad I did. This was around the time the new Tyranid codex came out in 6th, with stronghold assault and the LOW supplement.
The game was unplayable then without house rules.

And I see the state it is in now. Unbound LMFAO, oh I can see how it got worse. And it is not going to turn around guys. The game sucks for any
kind of reasonable, balanced play. Even friendly games where both people okay each others armies, are very questionably balanced.

It feels so good to be free of this crap. I don't miss it one bit, and it feels like a weight lifted off my shoulders.

Having fun on the PS4, and hanging out with friends. Life is good.

My advice: Dump this garbage. It is not worth your time or money.

........End of line

But you really haven't left have you? And you do miss it or you wouldn't be here.

If you don't miss it, you wouldn't be on a forum to discuss something you like or liked, even if you got rid of everything.

Just trying to understand.

**Crimson Devil**

Or he could've have been bored at work and decided to enjoy some schadenfreude.

Dakka is more than just a 40k forum.

**Toofast**

Last I checked, we're in the "40k general discussion" dakka forum...

**Palindrome**

Toofast wrote:
Last I checked, we're in the "40k general discussion" dakka forum...

The most recent post is visible from the forum main page, why do you think I started posting in this thread?

**jonolikespie**

Also this really is a Dakka Discussions kind of thread, not a 40k General one.

**Makumba**

Crimson Devil wrote:
Or he could've have been bored at work and decided to enjoy some schadenfreude.

Dakka is more than just a 40k forum.

Or he wants more people to leave, so he can find more opponents for other systems. If someones leaves table top gaming it is bad, but if he leaves to take up warmahordes or infinity, it is good for me, because I get more opponents and more people to split boxs with.

**Wayniac**

Makumba wrote:
Crimson Devil wrote:
Or he could've have been bored at work and decided to enjoy some schadenfreude.

Dakka is more than just a 40k forum.

Or he wants more people to leave, so he can find more opponents for other systems. If someones leaves table top gaming it is bad, but if he leaves to take up warmahordes or infinity, it is good for me, because I get more opponents and more people to split boxs with.

I consider it a campaign of information; too many people it seems play 40k because they're just ignorant of other options, or because the FLGS only has 40k players come in, so nobody bothers to start other games out of fear if not having anyone to play against.

**Boggy Man**

Filch wrote:
f2k wrote:
Filch wrote:
Gw is doomed! 3 stores closed out from 30 miles from me. No more gamng for me!

Can't you play at home or at a club?

I must admit that I've never really understood why stores are considered so important. And, by extension, why Games Workshop tries to claim that their premium prices are important to support stores and that their stores are important for the hobby. I mean: I've never had a Games Workshop store anywhere near me and all my gaming have been at home or at a club. No store needed for that.

Friends i had quit. They sold their army and moved on with their lives. I now must make the life transition, but i dont want to.

I'm doing the same right now. If you want some advice, take some of the money and set it aside to buy something nice for yourself; maybe for another game. It will make it sting a lot less.

**TheKbob**

Boggy Man wrote:

I'm doing the same right now. If you want some advice, take some of the money and set it aside to buy something nice for yourself; maybe for another game. It will make it sting a lot less.

I concur. I'm using my 40k funds to buy some durable goods for the kitchen to get back into cooking along with models for other games and for painting purposes. Then the rest into some savings for a rainy day.

Enjoy your new endeavors, whatever they may be!

**Toofast**

I still play because
- I still have tons of fun, win or lose
- I've spent far too much time and money on my army to ebay it for 1/3 of what it's worth
- I can drive 1/4 mile down the street to my local GW and get a game from 500 points to 3000 points any time it's open
- I enjoy the fluff

**TheKbob**

Toofast wrote:

- I still have tons of fun, win or lose
- I've spent far too much time and money on my army to ebay it for 1/3 of what it's worth
- I can drive 1/4 mile down the street to my local GW and get a game from 500 points to 3000 points any time it's open
- I enjoy the fluff

These two [bolded] aren't solid ground. I agree with the other two, however enjoyment of the fluff can be had without the tabletop game. The video games, like Dawn of War, got me into 40k and I still read a black library offering from time to time. I've really spend a ton of time on the wikis absorbing the mythos. I look forward to making a diorama, or two, but some of my work makes light (or absurdity) of the 40k GrimDark™ nature.

The former is what we call "sunk cost". It's something that makes for bad business; reinvesting or staying invested in something "bad" just because you already have a sunk cost. I am not saying it invalidates your reason to play, but it's not a good reason to keep playing if it was your only one.

My example, if you care:

Spoiler:

**H.B.M.C.**

Davor wrote:
But you really haven't left have you? And you do miss it or you wouldn't be here.

If you don't miss it, you wouldn't be on a forum to discuss something you like or liked, even if you got rid of everything.

Dakka isn't a 40K board. And he's answering the question of the OP.

**Toofast**

If it was bad in my eyes, I wouldn't keep investing in it. Yes, GW makes horrible business decisions and doesn't care about their customers nearly enough, if at all. However, the price is still bearable to me (FAR cheaper than my other hobbies), and despite what a lot of people have said about 7th, I'm really enjoying it. Also I should've clarified on the fluff, I like it as it relates to the game compared to the fluff of other games. You will never catch me reading a black library novel or spending hours pouring through the fluff section of my codex. I just couldn't see myself getting into the setting of the other tabletop games.

**motyak**

2 Things
Firstly, to the thread in general, lets try and keep our interactions positive. That means not consigning one view point to, as one user put it, 'the dakka discussions chamber of hate', as if it isn't worthy of discussion unless it's in a special pit somewhere.

Secondly, lets keep it on topic. Going back and forth about how a thread may not be in the appropriate place is something that is better done by hitting the yellow triangle. We look at all yellow triangle hits, and discuss things like if threads are in the right spot, if that is what is brought up.

Cheers

**Wayniac**

Apparently GW's beliefs are that they are perfect in every way, their miniatures are SO good that people will pay any price for them, they have no competition and anyone who cares about price isn't their target demographic. A poster on Warseer posted some bits they recalled from a conversation with GW management at an unmentioned time:

Wolf Lord Balrog @ Warseer wrote:
I recently had an opportunity to have a lengthy discussion with a member of GW's lower management about the company's strategy and its vision of itself. There are two key assumptions that GW operates under that I don't think most people understand. First, they believe that their product is so good, that people will pay whatever price tag they put on it. Second, they see themselves as totally without serious competition in wargames, that their only competition is from other hobby activities.

They totally and completely believe these things, they are articles of faith for every member of management (or if they feel differently they don't dare say so where another employee might hear). You think about it, and this alone explains much.

---

Some more bits I remembered from that conversation: If you have any qualms about prices, you are not GW's target market. They believe that there are sufficient 'collectors', for whom GW's 'super-ultimate-quality' will always trump price, that they don't need anybody for whom money is an issue. Similarly, if you aren't starting a new army, they don't care about you. New armies mean sales of their 'core' products, which is what they care most about. It is also true that GW doesn't care about the rules' 'balance' or tournament playability, not even a little bit. The rules are there to add value to the models, and so they can sell rulebooks as well as models, no other reason.

Take note, this isn't your standard internet 'whinging', or loose inferences from quotes in White Dwarf or a blog interview from somebody who used to work there years ago. These are the apparently deeply-held, current views of the company management, as described to me by a current member of management.

If they really believe that nonsense, then that's the reason they are going under. The point about not having any competition from other wargames is especially telling though, because I've seen that line of gak trotted out on forums a lot from posters as well, by comparing 40k to non-gaming hobbies and them claiming that 40k is cheaper than that (I recall someone once comparing 40k as a hobby to restoring muscle cars and used that as an argument that 40k's prices weren't that bad, as though the two had anything in common!)

What I've seen most of all though is people who stick with 40k because they like the models and fluff, and continually try to compare everything on that alone, so they dismiss Warmachine (too steampunk), Kings of War (too basic/not WHFB), FoW (historicals), etc. because it's not 40k, so they put up with the rules and price hikes for the "privilege" of playing in the setting as everything else isn't identical to it. So, intentionally or not they are playing right into what GW wants and thinks - that 40k is *so* good there is no alternatives.