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All I have for reference that 6th sold well is this. The 6 month
report for when it was released. Technically there isn't a sku breakdown to prove it. I can only assume. The obvious answer is the one ill choose to go with though.

Actually, all you've done there is prove that the release of a new edition of 40K drives sales, which I'd hold to be self evident.

In order to demonstrate 6th Ed specifically sold well, you'd need to compare the uptick in sales to other periods where a new edition was released and show that it created a greater increase than other editions, either before or since.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Actually, all you've done there is prove that the release of a new edition of 40K drives sales, which I'd hold to be self evident.

In order to demonstrate 6th Ed specifically sold well, you'd need to compare the uptick in sales to other periods where a new edition was released and show that it created a greater increase than other editions, either before or since.

Ok fair enough. Can you show me anything that says it sold poorly or failed to meet sales expectations?

No, but then I'm not the one who's arguing the point.

The google trends data shows that 6th edition did stoke less interest than 5th. Im on my phone tbough so I cant link

I think the question has gone from "Do you really think GW is going under?" to "Do you think GW can save itself before its too late?"

 MWHistorian wrote:
I think the question has gone from "Do you really think GW is going under?" to "Do you think GW can save itself before its too late?"

To answer the new question; No I don't. To save themselves would require a level of self awareness that GW hasn't demonstrated in the past. And I don't think they have the capacity to develop that in the time left.

 lobbywatson wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 lobbywatson wrote:


I said 6th edition was popular. I didn't say it was liked by all. 6th edition sold very well.

Any proof of this?

Because every shred of evidence points to exact opposite.

Try the 2012-13 annual report. You know the one where they had increased sales after the release of 6th... But you're right I pulled that out of my rear end...

Sales increase of 2.7% compared to the previous year.

OTOH, 40k 5th edition appeared to have noticeable impact on GW fortunes. In fact, it pretty much pulled the company out of post-LOTR depression. AOBR particularly sold enormous amount of units. Effect of 8th edition Fantasy and 6th edition 40k seemed much more modest.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
To answer the new question; No I don't. To save themselves would require a level of self awareness that GW hasn't demonstrated in the past. And I don't think they have the capacity to develop that in the time left.

+1.

Not to mention most things that would be helpful in the long term will probably be detrimental in the short term, and GW just can't afford to do that at the moment.

Like many, many players, I really want GW to substantially lower their prices. But it will decrease their revenue, which, if I'm not mistaken, isn't doing so well... They may even sell less to individual players: I *may* be tempted to buy a WHFB/40k box instead of a Bolt Action one because "ooohhh, shiiiiny, shiiiny and cheeaaap", but I'm a slow painter, and not really in grey-plastic collecting, so I won't buy much, much more than I currently do. If GW lower their prices, I may actually give them less money...

On the other hand, I may also promote WHFB/40k with more enthusiasm instead of promoting all the other systems. But it will be a slow process: GW needs to change my mind, and the mind of my fellow gamers, then we would play more, then we would promote GW games, then beginners may hear about WHFB/40k, then we could play introductory games with them, then maybe they want to consider giving GW their cash.

Even something as easy and obvious as "FIX YOUR DAMN PRICES" will be difficult, because it will hurt the company first, and it might just not survive long enough to see the positive effects of any new pricing policy.

I don't think they're going under.

However, a few years back they made some decisions which improved their bottom line and made the shareholders very happy, but the result was their price point made it profitable to cast resin knock-offs and sell them out of China. You could always make knock-offs, but if you do it yourself you know that it's kinda expensive. It wasn't until the last couple price hikes I could cast resin figures cheaper than buying them. Normally I only cast parts I can't get more of because it really is kind of a project-level hassle and expensive when you screw up.

In the long term, it's a huge mistake.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They put a lot of money into their process, and to do this they had to hike prices. But they did improve their process and the plastics are better quality and cheaper to produce than ever.

Ok, so if they don't lower their prices, they need to stabilize them for a few years so that it becomes less profitable to produce knock-offs and they need to stop f***** the local retailers. I understand their position on on-line retailers, and I actually support it because it helps the LFGS. Problem is for the LFGS, GW is harder than ever to keep to the letter of their annual reseller contracts.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
I think the question has gone from "Do you really think GW is going under?" to "Do you think GW can save itself before its too late?"

To answer the new question; No I don't. To save themselves would require a level of self awareness that GW hasn't demonstrated in the past. And I don't think they have the capacity to develop that in the time left.

This, this and this!

PhantomViper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:


What is my position? I dont believe I've actually stated one - what I HAVE done is point out that you dont actually have anything to back up YOUR argument that it was replaced because it sold badly. AS in, you have not supplied a single piece of pertinent evidence to support your argument.

GW's own numbers show a decline in revenue after the release of 6th edition.

Yes, and? That does not prove that 6th edition, the RULESET, sold badly; you are discounting WHFB, LOTR, and the fact they sell models more than they sell rules. If the models dont sell as well - because they arent as desirable for whatever reason - that effects their revenue, even if the rules are amazing.

PhantomViper wrote:The very short lifespan of the edition itself also points to a less than stellar success.

Wrong, that is pure supposition. As in, you can only say it points to this if you ignore the OTHER reasons why they may have wanted to replace it. I even gave you - for free! - some of those possible reasons. The point is that you keep presenting someting as causative when you actually have gak all information to support it. Stop making fallacious arguments, please.

PhantomViper wrote:Several retailers including Weyland and those few that post directly on Dakka also reported a drop in sales after 6th came out.

Again, what does that have to do with whether the 6th edition RULES sold poorly vs the models across GW selling poorly? It also assumes that GW exists in a vacuum, such that outside effects cant affect their sales....which is a poor assumption

PhantomViper wrote:The variety of polls that indicate that the majority of Dakka users do not like 6th / 7th edition.

1) why mention 7th? Irrelevant to your position and 2) The plural of anecdote is still not evidence. The number of poorly worded polls on Dakka is astounding, given the leading questions and poorly constructed options - understandable, as writing polls that are (as near as possible to) unbiased is damned difficult and oh, the plural of anecdote still isnt data. Dakka is nowhere near representative of the 40k community, in my experience. Now, again I'm not saying my anecdotes are evidence, just pointing out that unless you can prove something about Dakka that you cannot, you cant hold it up as evidence of any damned thing, really.

PhantomViper wrote:My own and several other posters anecdotal data indicating the vast drop in 40k players after the release of 6th edition.

Not evidence, but anecdote, as you point out. Irrelevant to an evidence based argument.

PhantomViper wrote:Like I've said, none of this proves categorically that 6th sold poorly, but there is 0 evidence supporting the opposing view so unless you are a proponent of Kirby's "things are great if you just ignore the numbers", then by all means, put forth your own arguments...

My own arguments are: you have yet to define your terms, you have yet to provide a single shred of actual evidence even if we take your terms as being somewhat defined, and you still drop into fallacy mode with arguments. 6th sold poorly because 6th was replaced so quickly must mean that 6th sold poorly circular reasoning.

MY argument is: none of us here know actual hard facts about sales of 6th edition *rules*, which is the only metric we can use to determine if the *edition of rules* sold poorly vs model sales.

In other words: stop repeating your supposition regarding 6th edition selling badly.

 lobbywatson wrote:
So for all the GW doomsayers I have bad news. They will likely be fine. For all of us GW apologists/fanboys (like myself) we need to acknowledge things need to change obviously. More people need to see the value, I say that because lowering prices doesn't just fix things. Anyone who works in sales management knows this. It's hard to outsell what you lost by lowering prices.

Year on year, sales are down - people are leaving and aren't being replaced. GW gets around this by raising prices.

GW will keep going as long as the apologists/fanboys continue to buy at ever increasing prices.

How deep are your pockets ? Kirby would like to know

Bartali wrote:

 lobbywatson wrote:
So for all the GW doomsayers I have bad news. They will likely be fine. For all of us GW apologists/fanboys (like myself) we need to acknowledge things need to change obviously. More people need to see the value, I say that because lowering prices doesn't just fix things. Anyone who works in sales management knows this. It's hard to outsell what you lost by lowering prices.

Year on year, sales are down - people are leaving and aren't being replaced. GW gets around this by raising prices.

GW will keep going as long as the apologists/fanboys continue to buy at ever increasing prices.

How deep are your pockets ? Kirby would like to know

As long as you ignore all evidence and the latest reports, GW is doing fine!

KommissarKarl wrote:

 Mysterious Pants wrote:

 lobbywatson wrote:
All.im saying is Chinese recasters are making a serious dent. That's all I'm saying. The interest in the game is still there.

I disagree. <LONG!>

1. People who buy recasts would not buy GW products if you took the recasts away, generally

That is not my experience. In the past year two of my friends who were previously happy to spend big bucks on GW products have switched to recasters, simply to save money.

Recasters are catching on huge here to in my area as well. In my group of friends 1 of them showed up with several new units that he paid 1/4 of the retail price for. After seeing the quality and cost of the re casts guess what? All 5 guys now order from China. These are middle class folks who were spending hundreds of dollars a year on GW and no longer spend a cent. I am not saying its right, just that when it comes to saving so much, people are going to take the cheaper option. If this has effected my small group here, then I am sure it is going to have an impact on the bigger picture as word spreads.

The ethics and morality of recasters is a moot point; too many people don't care. Arguing about it makes it change about as much GW trying to sue people over it; waste of time and money.

Like video games, music, and other entertainment industries, Games Workshop has to lower their prices, make their service better, and make the purchase from them a better value.

Pirating a video game is free. Buying it from Steam costs money. If the games stayed $60 forever, many folks would be pirating. Thanks to the onset of Steam sales, you now get many of those pirates just waiting for the $5 release. That's $5 from someone who would pay never. The added luxuries of Steam Workshop, automatic patching, and game specific forums sweetens the deal to turn pirates into cash-in-hand fanboys.

That's the way to look out, why are you losing sales. You cannot fight the moral high ground with business and with people who choose to not to even engage in the fight. If the FineManagement™ staff cannot figure this out, then that alone dooms them to failure. That's the market self correcting.

You are forgetting another reason why people pirate games. No problems with DRM. Not saying this is the primary reason, but it's part of the reason. Easier to play.

This is a lost sale. Most people who pirate a game would never have bought in the first place. So they are not lost sales. The lost sales are people who pirate the game because of DRM making them not be able to play the game. Why is the paying customer being treated like a criminal?

Also some people don't feel like they are getting their worth. So another reason why games get pirated. Sequels are released to fast and are just like money grabs, and people become to feel the value is not as worth if they have to keep buying all the time. Hmmm.... seems familiar.

How can GW make people stop pirating? I don't know. I have a few ideas. It seems GW follows Apple but doesn't do what Apple seems to do, is make people feel like they are getting a great value. How on earth do you get people to pay for something that they get for free? Not sure but some how iTunes did it. People stopped pirating music and started to pay for it. Why? Maybe people actually think they are getting value now. People want to spend money, but want value in return.

So it seems GW is not giving value to it's customers so customers are looking else where, just like how they did when it was music. People don't mind paying. People don't mind paying if it costs a bit more, but they want value for it's purchase. I think for a lot of people, paying something for GW has gone past the point off there is no value in return now. I am worried anything I buy, will be invalidated in less than 2 years of purchase. Who wants to spend a few hundred bucks and then your plastic toys is invalidated in less than 2 years.

I know I will not buy an 8th edition of 40K if it comes out in less than 4 years from now. There is no value in a rule book for me now. There is no value in buying any codex now because everything can/may be out of date and or obsolete in a short amount of time now.

GW needs to stop thinking on how to get people to buy more miniatures than they already have, example new rules and codex making previous builds unplayable and give people VALUE and a reason to keep buying. Totally different philosophy, but make your customers happy instead of feeling like we are cheap and don't mean anything to you and just need to keep on buying the same thing over and over again.

GW needs to INNOVATE and not become stale. There is no value in becoming stale.

Davor wrote:
You are forgetting another reason why people pirate games. No problems with DRM. Not saying this is the primary reason, but it's part of the reason. Easier to play.

Yes but that's part of an overall product value. DRM reduces the value of a product substantially, so when the pirated version doesn't have it it's usually superior to the legit version. Steam is so successful because it adds value to the product, so even if it has one of the less-bad forms of DRM (Steamworks itself is DRM), it's often an acceptable trade for people. Steam adds tremendous value in simplicity of use through consolidating all games into one account so you'll never lose a CD key, single click to download the fully updated game rather than tracking down patches, friends lists, built in forums, guides, steam workshop, reviews and so much more. That combined with prices as Kbob mentioned is why a generation of PC pirates turned into "cash-in-hand" fanboys. Kbob, Shuppet and I linked our steam profiles in a previous thread showing the amount of money we're willing to spend when companies do it right like this.

How can GW make people stop pirating?

That is the relevant question I guess ; p For digital products at least, their own online steam-like client for digital novels, rules and so on would be a good start, with affordable prices and specials. Built in forums to discuss things and setup online groups with players, a "steam workshop" for custom content like homebrew dexes and so on wouldt be amazing. GW really have the leverage to become the tabletop hobby portal, if they build it and support all tabletop games, people will flock to it in droves. Getting a cut of other games sales is much better than ignoring them.

For retail products, Scanable QR codes to add models to your "online collection" for use with digital games.... would be very controversial. If done well, it could be amazing. Reduced prices of course would increase the value, freebies like nice printed unit cards with the model boxes, actually good rules to use the models with would substantially increase their value too. People are happy to support good products, but GW has to realize they don't have the power to force us to, either digital or physical. They need to court us - not the other way around. If they combine the afformentioned online hobby portal with their retail chain and provide a great worldwide hobby center chain supporting all tabletop games, imo it would (longterm) be a big money maker.

GW needs to INNOVATE and not become stale. There is no value in becoming stale.

Yep, other tabletop companies are and GW is feeling the pinch because of it.

And in the world of giant boneheaded business moves...

Discount_Games_Store
July 22
Hello All!

I am very sorry to say we will be getting in fewer than 10 of the 200 Sanctus Reach Stormclaws we had pre-ordered. The release information of this item did not note to us that it would be limited or allocated upon release. For some of GW’s recent releases, it has not been unusual for our pre-order to be allocated, but we have always been able to get our entire pre-order in. This is a first for us. We are very sorry for the inability to ship all your orders. “Working” with GW has grown increasingly difficult and we really appreciate all of your support.

Below I have listed the names of our first 10 buyers.

We are happy to refund you ASAP.

We are also happy to credit you your order amount towards another purchase.

We can also exchange your pre-order for one of two options below:
1. Exchange your order for one new Dark Vengeance 7th edition set + 1 box of Flash Gitz.
2. Exchange your order for one Space Wolves Pack; one Wolf guard Terminators; one Ork Nobz; one Killa Kanz; one Ork gretchin; and one Flash Gitz.

GW, why would you not sell more of something so popular as to sell out? Stupid.

It being so popular means they'd probably want to reserve it for their own sales channels to get the full margin. Assuming they still end up selling them all that way it will make them a *lot* more money. Given the demand it's very possible they will. It is however further antagnoising both the playerbase and their retail partners so the long term effects are again damaging them more than they probably know... or care about. Not sure which of those is worse.

 MWHistorian wrote:

Bartali wrote:

 lobbywatson wrote:
So for all the GW doomsayers I have bad news. They will likely be fine. For all of us GW apologists/fanboys (like myself) we need to acknowledge things need to change obviously. More people need to see the value, I say that because lowering prices doesn't just fix things. Anyone who works in sales management knows this. It's hard to outsell what you lost by lowering prices.

Year on year, sales are down - people are leaving and aren't being replaced. GW gets around this by raising prices.

GW will keep going as long as the apologists/fanboys continue to buy at ever increasing prices.

How deep are your pockets ? Kirby would like to know

As long as you ignore all evidence and the latest reports, GW is doing fine!

Rumours of GW's impending demise are greatly exaggerated. I think the idea that the people running it don't know what they're doing is probably not well thought-out, since they've been doing it successfully for a while and have a lot of experience compared to the people impugning their competence. Companies undergo restructuring fairly often and it's not unusual for there to be a dip in profits while it's happening. The drop in sales figures could also be due to the impending release of seventh, people stop buying when they know a new edition is coming out. That said, they are still earning a profit, and they've got a healthy cash reserve, so even if they go through some hard times (again) they will probably be fine in the short-medium term (the next 5-10 years at least). There needn't be a moral dimension to this; they're a business, making business decisions, in pursuit of profit. So long as enough people think they're providing value, they'll be alright.

 Yonan wrote:
It being so popular means they'd probably want to reserve it for their own sales channels to get the full margin.

Now I believe here in Canada that is illegal. (I could be wrong of course). That would be a monopoly and then you are purposely short selling a product so you can make more money of it by selling it yourself. You sell GW product outside of GW stores before with no problem. Now you make a limited release and you intentionally decide to sell less on purpose to LGS so you can sell more yourself is illegal no matter if you make yourself the product or not. When you sell it regular before and now you don't, and still sell other products is creating an artificial monopoly on your own product. That is something I am sure you can't do in Canada.

Thing is, it needs to be proven, then fought in court, then retrials, and retrials on the retrials.

Who is going to take the time and money to prove it?

office_waaagh wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

Bartali wrote:

 lobbywatson wrote:
So for all the GW doomsayers I have bad news. They will likely be fine. For all of us GW apologists/fanboys (like myself) we need to acknowledge things need to change obviously. More people need to see the value, I say that because lowering prices doesn't just fix things. Anyone who works in sales management knows this. It's hard to outsell what you lost by lowering prices.

Year on year, sales are down - people are leaving and aren't being replaced. GW gets around this by raising prices.

GW will keep going as long as the apologists/fanboys continue to buy at ever increasing prices.

How deep are your pockets ? Kirby would like to know

As long as you ignore all evidence and the latest reports, GW is doing fine!

Rumours of GW's impending demise are greatly exaggerated. I think the idea that the people running it don't know what they're doing is probably not well thought-out, since they've been doing it successfully for a while and have a lot of experience compared to the people impugning their competence. Companies undergo restructuring fairly often and it's not unusual for there to be a dip in profits while it's happening. The drop in sales figures could also be due to the impending release of seventh, people stop buying when they know a new edition is coming out. That said, they are still earning a profit, and they've got a healthy cash reserve, so even if they go through some hard times (again) they will probably be fine in the short-medium term (the next 5-10 years at least). There needn't be a moral dimension to this; they're a business, making business decisions, in pursuit of profit. So long as enough people think they're providing value, they'll be alright.

Couldn't agree more. We got so many CEO's here and so few Indians in not sure how it all stays afloat. Furthermore this isn't even remotely close to the worst financial times they have ever had.

Apparently every CEO in the country follows GW financial reports and posts on dakka. I don't know how they have time to run their own companies when they're so busy playing armchair CEO for GW. I agree that a 9% loss in revenue is scary and needs to be turned around immediately. However, when you close 20%~ of your stores and make 60%~ of your revenue from said stores, it's not all that surprising.

Are you guys still going to talk like that when you're pawing confusedly at your local GW's doors, wondering why they're locked and the windows are whitewashed over, and it reopens three weeks later as '99c Workshop'?

Toofast wrote:
Apparently every CEO in the country follows GW financial reports and posts on dakka. I don't know how they have time to run their own companies when they're so busy playing armchair CEO for GW. I agree that a 9% loss in revenue is scary and needs to be turned around immediately. However, when you close 20%~ of your stores and make 60%~ of your revenue from said stores, it's not all that surprising.

So please enlighten me where did GW other 10 million pounds went? That is what like over 15 million dollars Canadian? Business don't see that they made 10 million in profit, they see that they lost 10 million. Almost every company keeps saying the LOST MILLIONS while still making a profit. So please enlighten us in your wisdom. If most business do this, then why is GW doing so poorly then? Just going what other business like to spin things. It's not profit they spin but how much they loose. So if every CEO can do this then explain me your words of wisdom.

I don't get it now. How is this a good thing for GW?

Where did I say it was a good thing for them? Profit is down partially because they spent money on severance pay, closing stores (I assume that meant in some cases breaking a lease early which comes with a fee), and the new website. Revenue is more important to look at than profit during a year of heavy restructuring and lots of one time investments adding up to a substantial sum of money. Once again, please show me where I either a) referenced profit at all in my quoted post or b) said it was a good thing for GW to lose 9% in revenue? Do you even know the difference between the two?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vermis wrote:
Are you guys still going to talk like that when you're pawing confusedly at your local GW's doors, wondering why they're locked and the windows are whitewashed over, and it reopens three weeks later as '99c Workshop'?

My GW store is doing just fine. It has gone from $1,100 a week average revenue to $2,800+ in less than a year. No, this is not typical of GW stores. However, this store isn't going anywhere as long as they're making the numbers. Considering how many new players and armies I see there on a regular basis, I doubt that will change any time soon.

Before anyone attacks me, I am fully aware this is anecdotal and does not in any way represent the average GW store.

 agnosto wrote:
And in the world of giant boneheaded business moves...

Discount_Games_Store
July 22
Hello All!

I am very sorry to say we will be getting in fewer than 10 of the 200 Sanctus Reach Stormclaws we had pre-ordered. The release information of this item did not note to us that it would be limited or allocated upon release. For some of GW’s recent releases, it has not been unusual for our pre-order to be allocated, but we have always been able to get our entire pre-order in. This is a first for us. We are very sorry for the inability to ship all your orders. “Working” with GW has grown increasingly difficult and we really appreciate all of your support.

Below I have listed the names of our first 10 buyers.

We are happy to refund you ASAP.

We are also happy to credit you your order amount towards another purchase.

We can also exchange your pre-order for one of two options below:
1. Exchange your order for one new Dark Vengeance 7th edition set + 1 box of Flash Gitz.
2. Exchange your order for one Space Wolves Pack; one Wolf guard Terminators; one Ork Nobz; one Killa Kanz; one Ork gretchin; and one Flash Gitz.

GW, why would you not sell more of something so popular as to sell out? Stupid.

That directly led to my picking up two large Warmachine forces from the fine people at DGS. I was fairly excited to start up a Space Wolves army and split those boxes with a friend who is just starting Orks.

It sold out on their Web store. Plenty of places still have storm claw. They do this to avoid a TSR type situation where they have massive amounts of unsold inventory on hand which they are forced to take a loss on. Since they do no market research, they are forced to do everything by trial and error. I'm betting they will produce more of the next storm claw type box. Look at LE codexes in 7th. They made 2k ork war boss editions, they still haven't sold out. When SW time came, they only made 1,500. Now that the wolf guard sold out in 5 hours, they will probably make 1,000 instead of 500 of the next high end LE codex. Also, the "quantities are limited, buy NOW!" shtick is one of the oldest sales tricks in the book.