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This came up within another thread but I thought I'd put this out there and see what people thought. Basically with the new creation rules, some are saying you can in fact have Crimson Slaughter and Black legion troops with in the same army.

I'm not sure on the exact rules of this, cause I think it revolves around "All Primary Detachment must have the same Faction".

There is no restriction on different CAD's coming from different books.

There is only a restriction saying that you cannot use army units from multiple books in a single CAD.


So yes, you could have a primary CAD of regular marines and a second CAD of crimson slaughter.

However, there would be the effects listed in the allies chart you would have to worry about.

Quick question, as I don't know every book by heart:
Is the Black Legion a form of Supplement?

As each supplement appears to contain a clause that only one Supplement may be used per Army, it would be illegal to field these two together.

Black legion is a supplement yes.


Kinda seems silly to limit you to only using 1 supplement when they already let you take all the CAD's you want, an ally, an inquisitorial detatchment, an imperial knight detatchment, and a Legion of the Damned attatchment.

Eihnlazer,
It is my personal belief that the before mentioned Rule is obsolete, it exists only because it was written into the Supplements and therefore managed to piggy-back it's way into 7th....

No what they're specifically talking about is that you can have troops from all 3 Supplements in one Primary Detachment

Like

HQ
Black Legion
Crimson Slaughter
Troops
Chaos Space marine
Black legion
Crimson Slaughter

IE all just mixed together.

I can't find anything on it actually in the supplement for only being allowed to make an army all of that supplement.

Hollismason wrote:
No what they're specifically talking about is that you can have troops from all 3 Supplements in one Primary Detachment

Like

HQ
Black Legion
Crimson Slaughter
Troops
Chaos Space marine
Black legion
Crimson Slaughter

IE all just mixed together.

I can't find anything on it actually in the supplement for only being allowed to make an army all of that supplement.

^^ Yeah it was stated that as long as the army is the same faction "CSM"



"Well chaos can do some interesting things now with unit selection

Chaos Codex= Chaos faction
Black legion supplement= Chaos faction
Crimson Slaughter= Chaos faction

since detachments only require you to purchase units for the detachment from a particular faction, not codex, you can put all 3 books into one one detachment now since they all = chaos faction. In effect the book to choose your chaos detachment is three books total if you want.

before you would have to do things like Primary=Chaos Allied= Black legion.

No more!" -blaktoof

This does not work due to the rules in the supplement only applying to "supplement x detachment" if your detachment is supplement x then all the rules apply to the entire detachment if not then none of the rules apply.

I think it's because there is no such thing as a Crimson Slaughter detachment anymore and instead everything has a "faction" and supplements now have the same "faction " as their main book. I think that's the gymnastics people are going through to do it.


Yeah I dont think this functionally works like people think it does, it specifically says in the Crimson Slaughter book at least that it's only in a Crimson Slaughter Detachment that those rules apply. I don't know where people are getting this?

Just functionally it doesn't work... all those rules at least in Crimson Slaughter specify that it has to be a Crimson Slaughter detachment.

What that means I have no idea though.

I don't know what the justification for it is though, is it the change to the Faction System? Like Detachments are not in fact called X now ? Still not sure on how people are saying you can do this.

Hollismason,
You are correct in pointing out that it is useless from a functionality point of view, as much of the Errata related to Supplement Rules was to make them 'Detachment Specific.'

The real problem is that there is no such thing as a Crimson Slaughter Detachment or a Black Legion Detachment!
The Rulebook has no method which we can use to determine if a Detachment within can legally be taken as a 'Supplement Detachment,' necessary to gain access to these Rules, or if they simply remain Combined Arms Detachments or Allied Detachment regardless of where the Units within come from. To make matters worse, the first 7th Edition Supplement release does contain a Rule for determining which Detachments are 'Supplement Detachments.' That Rule is not very good for pre-6th Edition supplements because it limiting "Ork Supplement Detachments" to only those listed within the Supplement material....

I think it may inadvertently broke the Chaos Supplements in terms of functionality. While it my be RAW , I don't think RAI or HWIPI is even close to doing that.

If the Crimson Slaughter Detachment no longer exists then how do you take a model from Crimson slaughter.

Effectively you have to nominate a detachment to be a CS detachment and then all the CS rules kick. We are not told which detachments are elligible but we know any faction can take a CAD or Allied Detachment and we have no permission to use any different ones with the CSM faction so it makes sense they are the only ones.

I think people maybe getting hung up on some rule about Supplements and books are their Faction name now and not Crimson Slaughter. I'm away from my books right now I'll look when I get home.

Basically there's no such thing as a Crimson Slaughter Faction and in order to have a Primary Detachment you need a Faction.

However there is no such thing as a crimson slaughter or black legion detachment, or even chaos detachment in 7th, those were things that existed in 6th.

Let's say you choose to take a Combined Arms Detachment, you then look at the Combined arms detachment for the rules to select the units. We see there is a FoC with some required units, and some optional units. Without any further restrictions we could buy whatever we want to fill up these slots as long as they fit the battlefield role. (ie our troops could be dire avengers with wave serpents, and our HQ could be fateweaver and a tau commander with buff packages) However we do have a restriction:

All units chosen must have the same Faction (or have no Faction).

So each slot of our CAD has to have the appropriate battlefield role, and must be of the same faction. And we cannot have the silly list in brackets above.

You can include any number and type of Detachments in a Battle-forged army provided you have sufficient units. Simply select a type of Detachment and organise some or all of your units so that they fit within the restrictions and limitations detailed on that particular Detachment. Later in this section you will find the Combined Arms Detachment and the Allied Detachment. Both of these can be used with any army. Each Detachment is split into three sections: Force Organisation Chart, Restrictions and Command Benefits.

so we see we can put any unit into the detachment as long as the fit within the restrictions of that detachment, in this case they must belong to the same faction. There is no requirement they all come from the same book, that is a 6th edition concept.

In the case of older publications, the Faction of all the units described in a codex is the same as the codex’s title. In the case of codex supplements, the Faction of all the units described in that publication is the same as the codex it is a supplement of.

referencing the above we are told that;
Black legion units = Chaos Faction
Crimson slaughter units= Chaos faction

So the units from those supplements = chaos faction as per RAW.

Looking at the restrictions for a CAD we see that we can do the following

HQ- DP(chaos codex-faction = chaos)
HQ- Chaos Sorcerer (Black legion supplement-faction=chaos)

Troops- Possessed (Crimson slaughter supplement-faction=chaos)
Troops- Chosen (Black legion supplement-faction=chaos)


And we have adhered to all of the rules in the rulebook, and the restrictions of our CAD.

Things that are not possible;

taking a unit of troops that are black legion supplement with draznichts ravagers
taking a Daemon prince from chaos codex and giving them crimson slaughter & standard relics (and or black legion relics)

The rules for crimson slaughter apply to models that are chosen from that supplement, the rules for black legion apply to models chosen for that supplement.

Ie if I purchase a chosen(troops) from black legion they use the rules/restrictions for the black legion supplement, and are faction = chaos within our CAD which is made up solely of faction chaos units, however if I purchase possessed for troops from supplement= crimson slaughter they are faction chaos and may go into the same CAD but use the rules for possessed(troops) as found in crimson slaughter.

They should rename 7th the record keeping edition..

btw I play orks, and picked up the red crusade book today, it has 2 new formations for orks and 2 for IG that are usable in standard 40k. They could also call this buy more books and white dwarfs edition because if you want all the rules for your army you are going to be giving us a lot of moneys.

If you don't have a Crimson Slaughter Detachment how are you taking Possessed as troops? If you don't have a Black Legion detachment how are you taking Chosen as troops?

Whilst your DP could be a generic CSM one, if however your detachment is a Crimson Slaughter one then he can't take CSM relics and instead has access to Crimson Slaughter ones.

So whilst your wall of text didn't break any rulebook rules it broke the Supplement rules.

That was the steps I thought people were taking. The only problem is that it's not a Crimson Slaughter Detachment which is what gives them the ability to do that.

There's no listing for Possessed in the Crimson Slaughter Supplement, only special characters and wargear. Then they have a rule hat says " If you have possessed in a Crimson Slaughter Detachment they can be taken as troops".

Basically there's no way now to make a "Crimson Slaughter" detachment.

In the case of older publications, the Faction of all the units described in a codex is the same as the codex’s title. In the case of codex supplements, the Faction of all the units described in that publication is the same as the codex it is a supplement of.

in the case of supplements the faction of all the units described in that publication is the same as the codex it is a supplement of.

You don't have to take crimson slaughter detachment, or black legion detachment. Those things don't even exist and there is no such thing as naming a detachment.

the fact that your CAD or even Allied detachment only requires the factions to be the same, and the factions of the units in those books is the same, lets you take the unit and put it in your CAD.

you can do the same with farsight units and plug them straight into a CAD with normal codex tau because they are the same faction.

you can do the same with Iyanden units and plug them straight into a CAD with a normal codex eldar because they are the same faction.

Army selection isn't based on models from a singular book.

You are either unbound, or battleforged.

if you are unbound you can take whatever you want from anywhere, and you nominate a model to be your warlord. all models with the same faction as your warlord are considered to be in the same primary detachment(which means little) and all other models are other models that have to still adhere to factions.

or you take an battle forged list. if you take a battleforged list you pick an army made up of detachments, you organize the units you select into those detachments based on the requirements/restrictions.

There is no requirement that you take units from a singular book.

If you pick a CAD as a detachment in your army, and you choose to take some chaos models there is no restriction on selecting a unit that has chaos faction from the chaos codex, and there is no restriction on selecting a unit that has the chaos faction from the black legion book, and there is no restriction on selecting a unit that has the chaos faction from the crimson slaughter book.

While there are no rules for taking a black legion detachment, or taking a crimson slaughter detachment there are rules for units in those supplements and those units are chaos faction. A CAD is made up of units of the same faction, those supplements contain units of faction chaos.


fruther edit-

interestingly enough in 6th you could do things like take TAU/with farsight allies.

you cannot do that in 7th as allied detachment has to be different faction and farsight= tau faction.

same with chaos, in 6th you could take primary chaos/allies black legion but as they are both chaos faction if your CAD is faction Chaos you cannot take allies that are also chaos as they are the same faction and black legion supplement contains units which are faction chaos.

Actually Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter both state in the codex that they can in fact Ally with Chaos Space Marines, which I think overrides that rule.

The point is though that Crimson Slaughter and Black Legion do not have units listed, they refer to Chaos Space Marine codex. In order to make it a Crimson Slaughter or Black Legion, they have to be that detachment, but their not anymore they're considered to be Chaos Faction

 FlingitNow wrote:
If you don't have a Crimson Slaughter Detachment how are you taking Possessed as troops? If you don't have a Black Legion detachment how are you taking Chosen as troops?

Whilst your DP could be a generic CSM one, if however your detachment is a Crimson Slaughter one then he can't take CSM relics and instead has access to Crimson Slaughter ones.

So whilst your wall of text didn't break any rulebook rules it broke the Supplement rules.

the supplement rules don't matter, because they are not possible or required to be followed in this particular rule.

there is not a black legion detachment in 7th, in 6th there was, and there is not a crimson slaughter detachment in 7th, in 6th there was.

The rules for selecting units tell you that the models in those supplements are faction chaos, the Combined Arms Detachment tells you that you may fill the slots with models that fit the appropriate battlefield role with the only restriction being that they are chaos faction.

are the units in black legion chaos faction? yes.

are the units in crimson slaughter chaos faction? yes.

all rules are followed.

Oddly the wording in black legion and crimson slaughter are different.

A Black Legion army is chosen using the army list presented in Codex: Chaos Space Marines. It also has a series of
supplemental rules (presented below) that can be used in addition to the material found in Codex: Chaos Space
Marines. Note that you can only use the options from one codex supplement when choosing a detachment.

obviously you cannot pick a black legion army anymore as there is no such thing.
The wording "we can only use the options from one codex supplement when choosing a detachment" is interesting and seems to restrict us to using only the options form one codex supplement when choosing a detachment. Whether this applies to a "black legion detachment" which doesn't exist or generically still applies to any detachment is debatable, but going with the RAW if it applies to any detachment you could still be legal with Chaos codex + black legion supplement rules in the same detachment as there is only one supplement giving options in the detachment.

A Crimson Slaughter army is chosen using the army list presented in Codex:
Chaos Space Marines. It also has a series of supplemental rules (presented
below) that can be used in addition to those found in Codex: Chaos Space
Marines.

again there is no such thing as a crimson slaughter army anymore, and oddly the crimson slaughter book doesn't preclude us from using the rules from its supplement with any other.

so going by the 7th rules crimson slaughter units are all faction = chaos, black legion units are all faction= chaos.

so you could put a list together that has chaos+black legion=chaos in one CAD but not all three due to the wording in the black legion dex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hollismason wrote:
Actually Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter both state in the codex that they can in fact Ally with Chaos Space Marines, which I think overrides that rule.

The point is though that Crimson Slaughter and Black Legion do not have units listed, they refer to Chaos Space Marine codex. In order to make it a Crimson Slaughter or Black Legion, they have to be that detachment, but their not anymore they're considered to be Chaos Faction

it does not override that rule.

in fact it completely conflicts with the allied detachment rules of faction must be different and would make your list illegal.

and of course they have units listed, they just didn't reprint the statlines and unit entries, but it certainly lists units like chosen, and possessed.

So the Supplememt rules don't matter? There are no such things are Black Legion or Crimson Slaughter units. There are rules for CSM units taken as part of a CS or BL detachment. If you're not using a CS detachment then nome of the CS rules apply. If a CS detachment does not exist then there is no way to ever us the CS rules.

Again I ask if you're not using a CS detachment what rule are you using to select Possessed as troops?

Eihnlazer wrote:

There is only a restriction saying that you cannot use army units from multiple books in a single CAD..

This is not true, there is no such restriction.

The BRB is completely fine with a single CAD having units from CSM, BL,and CS; mix and match at will.


The issues only arise when you start looking at the wording in the actual supplements, and at that point the rules are broken and the game stops.....

Your logics a little off:

IF there is no such thing as a Crimson Slaughter and Black Legion codex, you cannot get the rules if you cannot make a Crimson Slaughter detachment.

It's pretty set there.

What your claiming is that since there is no Crimson Slaughter and Black Legion Formation that you can in fact take them in a Chaos Space Marine Force Org or Army

@ blaktoof
I have read your argument and believe it is a blatant attempt to twist a poorly phrased principle into something awful.
A list as you've described is truly the antithesis of how I would choose to play Warhammer 40000. I fail to see how you could justify setting up a list such as that on the tabletop and would not play against you. I would accept without argument multiple detachments taken using the specific rules from multiple publications e.g. HQ + T + T from CS, then HQ + T + T from BL etc.

Reminder:
A good deal of the Errata concerning Supplements was to change 'Army' to 'Detachment,' unless the Detachment is the same name as the Supplement any Rules within are unable to be evoked as their conditions have not been met.

bone idol wrote:
@ blaktoof
I have read your argument and believe it is a blatant attempt to twist a poorly phrased principle into something awful.
A list as you've described is truly the antithesis of how I would choose to play Warhammer 40000. I fail to see how you could justify setting up a list such as that on the tabletop and would not play against you. I would accept without argument multiple detachments taken using the specific rules from multiple publications e.g. HQ + T + T from CS, then HQ + T + T from BL etc.

While it is nice that you, like everyone, has an opinion and is entitled to it. It in no way reflects a discussion on the topic of the RAW regarding this situation.

I find it interesting that you feel there is any "twisting"

it plainly stats in the rulebook that all supplements count the units from that supplement as faction of their parent codex.

the units from crimson slaughter = chaos faction

the units from black legion = chaos faction

the rules further state a CAD is made up of units in your collection, they must fit a specific FoC for that detachment type and the only restriction is they have the same faction.

There's no twisting, its just the plain rules.

Further that you seem bothered by a chaos army including nothing but chaos models "bothers" you I find completely baffling. Technically people can take A CAD of grey knights, a CAD of tau, and a CAD of chaos daemons in the same army.

A good deal of the Errata concerning Supplements was to change 'Army' to 'Detachment,' unless the Detachment is the same name as the Supplement any Rules within are unable to be evoked as their conditions have not been met.

However those are erratas for other supplements. Not sure you can use another supplements ruling for a different supplement, additionally since there is no such thing as naming detachments, or an iyanden detachment, or a farsight enclave detachment, those codexes so far only have access to Combined Arms Detachments, Allied detachments, and some various formations. By strict RAW those armies aren't even legal to field at the moment from the faqs.

So the point still remains what rules are you using to take Possessed as troops?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Are you refusing to answer that question because you know your made up rules aren't RaW?

are you claiming that you can't take units in the Black Legion supplement or the Crimson slaughter supplement?

and if your calling the RAW from the rulebook made up you should probably back up any statement you made with a rule, since you have failed to do so.

I ask you retract that the RAW statements I made are made up and not RAW and apologize kind sir to show that your not a troll.

There are no units in the CS or BL supplements. There are rules that apply to CSM units taken as part of a BL or CS detachment.

So again I ask you for the rule your using to take Possessed as troops?

I called your rules made up because your interpretation is based on this statement:

"The supplement rules don't matter" blaktoof

You're not arguing RaW because you're not using the rules.

I think your failing to comprehend.

RAW you may take the following things in a Chaos army currently. Combined arms detachment, Allied detachment, and the formations so far available for chaos armies.

if you take a combined arms detachment you have the restriction to takes units that have the faction =chaos

all units from supplements have faction = parent codex.

Generally, can you take units from the black legion, or crimson slaughter supplement? Yes.

Two other supplements have had rules stating that army=detachment since there is no such thing as an farsight army or iyanden army anymore.

thats great.

However this also no such thing as an Iyanden detachment, or farsight enclave detachment, I would like for you to show any rules for such detachments if you can.

Regardless of that,

A combined arms detachment is made up of units from the same faction.

so even WITHOUT rules for the detachment of farsight/iyanden/black legion/crimson slaughter (since there are no such detachment rules, and in the case of black legion there is no faq telling us that army=detachment but lets assume that its the same..)

you may take units from black legion / crimson slaughter because there is no wording saying that units from those may only be included in these detachment types that have no rules anywhere.

by following strict RAW there is no restriction on taking units from black legion into a Combined arms detachment that has models from the basic chaos codex.

and please do not misqoute me, thats actually against the tenents of the forum.

the supplement rules don't matter, because they are not possible or required to be followed in this particular rule.

there is not a black legion detachment in 7th, in 6th there was, and there is not a crimson slaughter detachment in 7th, in 6th there was.

The rules for selecting units tell you that the models in those supplements are faction chaos, the Combined Arms Detachment tells you that you may fill the slots with models that fit the appropriate battlefield role with the only restriction being that they are chaos faction.

are the units in black legion chaos faction? yes.

are the units in crimson slaughter chaos faction? yes.

all rules are followed.

as I stated, you are not taking a detachment of black legion or crimson slaughter because those things firstly don't exist, secdondly and more importantly for this case you are not restricted to taking only black legion units in a black legion detachment, as black legion supplement= chaos faction and CAD states its made up of models of the same faction, not the same book.

are units from black legion faction = chaos or faction = black legion?

The only way to gain those rules is to take a Black legion or Crimson Slaughter detachment.

Seriously. That's literally the way it is written.

There's no way now to make a detachment that's called that any more.

None of the rules would then apply.

RAW it's not working, it's a complete HIWPI situation.