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 easysauce wrote:
so if neither side has psykers, you are breaking rules if you dont both roll a d6 for power dice and recolve the 0 powers...

there are no mandatory action in 40k like in MTG... there are things you are supposed to, or "must" do but its not the same as MTG, they are two very VERY different beasts.

if you cannot go back and do your "mandatory" re rolls, or extra attacks or reserve rolls if you forget, then you cannot go back to do anything else either.

So there aren't any mandatory actions, and then you go and list some... Uh. Yeah. Those are exactly what I'm talking about.

takes a big tactical part of the game off the table if you are REQUIRED to remind your opponent that they have X Y Z bonus "mandatory" re rolls/extra attacks/ect.. that necron general should know damn well he gets a bonus on 6's to hit with tesla, its not my job to know it, and its not fair for him to be reminded by me or any other back seat general.

knowing the rules, and remembering them, and executing your actions to include them is pretty much THE core of tactics in a rules based game.

No, actually, it makes it a tactical game instead of "Who remembers the rules better lawlz."

rigeld2 wrote:
The difference (that I pointed out) is that if there's a mandatory action (like, say, you have creatures that are forced to attack) and you attempt to skip your combat phase, you aren't allowed to. You can get an illegal game state warning for doing so.

Yes, and in that case it would be creating an illegal game state. But there's no equivalent here, the only thing skipped was the opponent's opportunity to attempt to cast some spells. Deciding not to have your wizards cast anything is a bad strategy, but it isn't illegal.

There are mandatory actions in the psychic phase. You can't choose to skip something that's mandatory.

There is a mandatory D6 roll that doesn't matter if no powers are attempted, and that's it. I don't think it's at all reasonable to start talking about failing to maintain a legal game state if you don't bother rolling a D6 and then immediately ignoring the result.

 Peregrine wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The difference (that I pointed out) is that if there's a mandatory action (like, say, you have creatures that are forced to attack) and you attempt to skip your combat phase, you aren't allowed to. You can get an illegal game state warning for doing so.

Yes, and in that case it would be creating an illegal game state. But there's no equivalent here, the only thing skipped was the opponent's opportunity to attempt to cast some spells. Deciding not to have your wizards cast anything is a bad strategy, but it isn't illegal.

No, there were other things skipped, such as

There are mandatory actions in the psychic phase. You can't choose to skip something that's mandatory.

There is a mandatory D6 roll that doesn't matter if no powers are attempted, and that's it. I don't think it's at all reasonable to start talking about failing to maintain a legal game state if you don't bother rolling a D6 and then immediately ignoring the result.

No, the right thing to do is say that you're skipping it because you're not going to do anything. Your opponent might be able to do something in the psychic phase (like in WHFB be able to dispel a persistent spell) and skipping the phase limits their ability to do that.
When you cast a Desecration Demon in your first main phase (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=270959) you're supposed to ask your opponent if they want to sacrifice during your combat step. And every combat step thereafter. Even if you don't plan on attacking, you have to deal with the mandatory action.

It's just funny that so far 2 people have said "There's nothing mandatory! Except for this thing, and maybe this other thing, but since there's nothing mandatory it can be skipped!"

 RiTides wrote:
Nice post, Boyofdestiny205. Very nice to see someone consider both sides.

And you make a great point about rules. Given the reactions here, I think a "failure to maintain game state" might be a tournament packet rule TOs should consider. If this TO had included that, it would make it clear he was expecting both players to remember mandatory / automatic / NON-optional events, where possible.

Its nice to have an adult conversation about rules with someone RiTides.

I totally agree with you about it being a Tournament packet rule though. Then there would be no grey area.

I would let my opponent go back and do whatever he/she needed to do no problem, Unless of course we were beyond the point of no return, where it was impossible to make the required actions/rolls/whatever without, say, replaying all of (or even a great deal of) the current turn. If, for example, we were at the end of a turn and my opponent suddenly remembered to move a charging unit (I'd have to forget too because I'd remind them otherwise), sorry but that's just too much to ask. I would also have to think long and hard about a situation that gives them an unfair advantage, such as declaring an action after a higher piloting skill character had revealed their move in X-Wing. Again I'd try to remind them, but I myself forget to perform actions as often as I remember.

I guess I live by the "do unto others" mantra when it comes to games.

...But then I'm not exactly known for winning tournaments... (^_~)*

I would NEVER ask to go back and do something that I forgot but have absolutely no problem letting an opponent do it.

It can work both ways. For example if both players forget to resolve an ongoing assault I think you should go back if the next turn has just started.

rigeld2 wrote:
No, the right thing to do is say that you're skipping it because you're not going to do anything. Your opponent might be able to do something in the psychic phase (like in WHFB be able to dispel a persistent spell) and skipping the phase limits their ability to do that.

Except there's nothing in the OP that suggests anything like this was the case, especially since the OP had no objection to skipping the phase (as they would if they wanted to dispel something). No opportunities or mandatory effects were missed, the opponent just didn't use their army effectively.

When you cast a Desecration Demon in your first main phase (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=270959) you're supposed to ask your opponent if they want to sacrifice during your combat step. And every combat step thereafter. Even if you don't plan on attacking, you have to deal with the mandatory action.

Yes, and in this case that means you can't skip the combat step. This is an exception to the normal rule, not the default situation. If no effect like this is on the table then you can just say "your turn" without announcing a combat step, and there's no illegal game state because it's implied that you had a combat step and just immediately ended it without declaring any attackers. And of course if your opponent wanted to do something they would just say "wait, at the beginning of combat..." and do it. But you would be laughed out of the tournament if you tried to appeal to "but I'm not legally allowed to skip my combat step, you have to let me go back and attack with this creature I meant to attack with" after saying "your turn" and letting your opponent start their turn.

It's just funny that so far 2 people have said "There's nothing mandatory! Except for this thing, and maybe this other thing, but since there's nothing mandatory it can be skipped!"

There's nothing mandatory that has to be explicitly done. Rolling a D6 for warp charge and then immediately ignoring the result and ending the phase might technically be "mandatory", but no reasonable person is ever going to claim that it's an illegal game state if you decide to skip rolling an irrelevant die. But let's get your opinion on a couple situations:

1) My (FW army list) LR Vanquisher has a coaxial heavy stubber. I fire it before the main gun, and if I get at least one hit the main gun is twin-linked. However, it is only a STR 4 weapon. Let's say I shoot at a Land Raider (AV 14 on all sides). Would you insist that I roll the armor penetration dice for any heavy stubber hits I get, even though they all automatically fail and will be picked up and ignored as soon as they hit the table, and would you complain that it is an illegal game state if I don't?

2) We are both playing Tau lists with no psykers. Would you insist that I declare the beginning of the psychic phase, roll the D6 to see how many warp charges we each generate, generate the warp charge, and then declare the end of the phase without attempting any powers? Would you do it yourself? If not, how do you justify your previous claim that you can't skip the psychic phase like that?

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It can work both ways. For example if both players forget to resolve an ongoing assault I think you should go back if the next turn has just started.

Exactly. Within reason, you want events that were automatic / should have occurred no matter what, to occur! How to handle it is case-by-case, though, not a one size fits all statement; and as you say can sometimes involve both players forgetting.

Unfortunately there are some who might conveniently forgot a certain action if they believe it'll give them some advantage.

 Peregrine wrote:

When you cast a Desecration Demon in your first main phase (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=270959) you're supposed to ask your opponent if they want to sacrifice during your combat step. And every combat step thereafter. Even if you don't plan on attacking, you have to deal with the mandatory action.

Yes, and in this case that means you can't skip the combat step. This is an exception to the normal rule, not the default situation. If no effect like this is on the table then you can just say "your turn" without announcing a combat step, and there's no illegal game state because it's implied that you had a combat step and just immediately ended it without declaring any attackers. And of course if your opponent wanted to do something they would just say "wait, at the beginning of combat..." and do it. But you would be laughed out of the tournament if you tried to appeal to "but I'm not legally allowed to skip my combat step, you have to let me go back and attack with this creature I meant to attack with" after saying "your turn" and letting your opponent start their turn.

I love it when you put words in my mouth. The underlined is your Strawman - not anything I've said.
There's rules in MTG about short cutting and skipping phases. If there's something mandatory, you can't skip it.

It's just funny that so far 2 people have said "There's nothing mandatory! Except for this thing, and maybe this other thing, but since there's nothing mandatory it can be skipped!"

There's nothing mandatory that has to be explicitly done. Rolling a D6 for warp charge and then immediately ignoring the result and ending the phase might technically be "mandatory", but no reasonable person is ever going to claim that it's an illegal game state if you decide to skip rolling an irrelevant die.

Yeah, ignoring rules you think are irrelevant is perfectly fine. You admit there's a mandatory action. The only legitimate way to skip that phase is to ask your opponent if you can skip that mandatory action. You don't get to just choose what's irrelevant and what isn't.

But let's get your opinion on a couple situations:

1) My (FW army list) LR Vanquisher has a coaxial heavy stubber. I fire it before the main gun, and if I get at least one hit the main gun is twin-linked. However, it is only a STR 4 weapon. Let's say I shoot at a Land Raider (AV 14 on all sides). Would you insist that I roll the armor penetration dice for any heavy stubber hits I get, even though they all automatically fail and will be picked up and ignored as soon as they hit the table, and would you complain that it is an illegal game state if I don't?

2) We are both playing Tau lists with no psykers. Would you insist that I declare the beginning of the psychic phase, roll the D6 to see how many warp charges we each generate, generate the warp charge, and then declare the end of the phase without attempting any powers? Would you do it yourself? If not, how do you justify your previous claim that you can't skip the psychic phase like that?

1) If you ask, I won't care. If you just roll, hit once, then roll again and say "okay, hit with the main gun" I'll correct you and say you failed your pen roll for the stubber.
2) Again, if you say "let's just skip the psychic phase" it's fine. But you shouldn't just assume it can be skipped, and your opponent has every right to ask what you're doing if you move straight from movement to shooting.

If you hit a Trukk with a Rupture Cannon, do you automatically assume it's okay to roll on the damage chart? Or do you say "Auto-pen, here's damage."?

You cannot skip something mandatory without communication. In the OPs case, mandatory actions were skipped without communication. That's a bad thing. I'm not sure I can put it in a simpler way.

very much in REAL LIFE generals/WIZARDS/ect do have DERP moments where they forget to do stuff, and yes it does very much cost them battles...

That said, the conversation in this thread has changed my mind. I do now believe the successful execution of the phases is on both players. I still believe I am under no obligation to remind him to use remaining power dice or something optional, but even the execution of hatred is a rule to be followed.

That said, whether or not the issue can be easily fixed matters quite a bit in allowing do-overs.

 Thunderfrog wrote:
I do now believe the successful execution of the phases is on both players. I still believe I am under no obligation to remind him to use remaining power dice or something optional, but even the execution of hatred is a rule to be followed.

That said, whether or not the issue can be easily fixed matters quite a bit in allowing do-overs.

Exactly my point.

Would let someone go back (and indeed have done) if nothing has progressed beyond that - e.g. declare casting a spell if they missed the magic phase, declared shooting but have yet to actually shot - not issues there at all.

If they have taken an action that can easily be taken back or continued with - and are happy for me to make that call then again no issues - e.g. they have fired with one unit if they are happy for me to say keep the result or re-roll it (for better or worse) then again no issues.

If they have taken an action that cannot easily be taken back - and it is likely to matter then no, not generally happy, however if the game outcome is largely decided and the event to be overlooked is not going to change things seriously then yeah go for it, its a game, its fun.

All of this has a flip side, I will permit my opponent more scope for this than I expect for myself, as with all of the game, allow more than you expect back seems basic politeness - and if both players play that way only issues that matter are considered (i.e. don't ask for something back when it won't matter)

Also if the opponent has already been TFG, then no, if you want to be a rules lawyer then so be it, but even someone who plays that way but has not yet done so to me in this game gets a pass on this.

Agree people should know the rules, if they 'forget' something and I don't notice well thats as much my look out as theirs really.