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So, i just started looking into the W40K universe, and i found out that each Space Marine chapter, is composed of a 1000 marines. But why a 1000? I also read that, when the Horus Heresy occurred the Ultramarines numbered 250.000 marines. What became of these 249.000? I don't think they died during the Heresy, so did they "join" up with successor chapters? Isn't it bad they they only number 1000 in each chapter, when they could have tens of thousands?

The link below, provided me with information.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Marine_Legion#.U8JYyvl5NWI

Gramskii

The legions got broken into chapters to prevent another Heresy. The legions concentrated too much power into the hands of a single leader. This is also why the Imperial Guard is split into specialised regiments (i.e. infantry, armoured, artillery, etc) and why the Imperial Navy is a separate organization. During the Second Founding the remaining Loyalist Legions was broken into 1000 man chunks to form the original Chapters.

Thanks for the quick answer =)

Gramskii

The Ultramarines were tricked by the Alpha Legion, and spent most of the Heresy on the other side of the galaxy. When it ended, they were at full-strength and their beleaguered brothers had just fought a serious war, as well as suffering casualties in the Drop Site Massacre.

Roboute Guilliman, now in possession of the strongest Legion in the galaxy at this point, forced everyone to accept his Codex Astartes. One of the primary decrees of this was to divide the Legions into Chapters, so that no one person could control the might of a full Legion again. This was generally regarded as a bad move.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Founding#Second_Founding

Well the Black Templars have around 5000-6000 marines as they don't care about the codex Astartes and found a loop hole in being able to have larger numbers when leading Crusades. They have also been leading crusades against xenos and heretics for over 10,000 years. The Black Templars are also so far spread out that it would be impossible to prove and the inquisition probably doesn't care as along as they keep crusading against xenos and heretics.

The 1000 is what you get with 10 Companies of 100 Marines. A number GW ran with cause it is easy to remember.
A Chapter consists of more than those who are counted amongst the 10 Companies.


The Ultramarines are noted as having 23 known successors at 2nd founding ( codex SM ), but GW altered the size of the Legions too, so old numbers of 23.000 when Legions had 10.000 are not the same as 23.000 of 250.000 ....
So please don't worry too much about the 1000 marine thing. Its just GW.

GW and their complete inability to comprehend statistics.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
GW and their complete inability to comprehend statistics.

Sadly, this extends to the marketing department.

Explains the price difference between the Stompa and the 'Orkanaut.

After the Heresy, the Imperium was completly reformed to prevent a civil war of that scale. It became the obsession of its leaders. Space Marines, the central figures of the heresy, were broken in so small numbers that they would never represent a threat to the Imperium itself. A few Space Marine groups refused that change but beside Space Wolf and Black Templar very few of them are still active. Only the incredible reputation and efficency of these Chapter are keeeping them safe of a purge. The Imperial Army was also disbanded and reformed in smallers, more specialised regiments for the same reason. The side effect of these decisions was to create a mamoth bureaucracy to regulate and coordinate all these small armies making the Imperium a very slow yet powerful engine of war. It didn't stop 6000 years later, another civil war of catastrophic proportion comparable in scope to the Heresy mostly caused by a man who became the lord of the adminstration and the Grand Ecclesiarch (AKA Space Pope). He used those powers to raise armies oustide of the Imperial Guards but identical in fonction and equipment. He was killed during the second Siege of Terra by his honor guards. After that event, the Inquisition became even more powerful, seperation of powers amongst the different imperial insitution even more important and the bureaucracy even bigger.

The 1000 man strenght only applies to codex-adherent chapters though. Chapters like the Black Templars or Space Wolves are larger in number.

It also only covers the amount of common Astartes infantry. It does not include commanders, techmarines and other specialists. And besides the Astartes, a chapter also has its own space fleet and a huge amount of chapter serfs running around for non-combat tasks. Some chapters such as the Ultramarines and Space Wolves even maintain entire armies of normal Humans to defend their territory, so a chapter can be a whole lot more than just a 1000 man.

The surviving Space Marines (Loyalist ones, not the ones who had sided with Horus) were split up into groups of 1,000. Each of these was a successor to the Legion which they were previously part of. So a core of 1,000 (or as near as could be found) remained in the Ultramarines, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Raven Guard, Salamanders, Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, Space Wolves and White Scars and they were changed from Legions to Chapters. The rest of them became successor Chapters.

As for 1,000, IIRC it was the standard size of a Space Marine Company pre-Heresy. Also, Smurf-Jesus said so.

Well, the Ecclesiarch. There is only one, so 'Grand Ecclesiarch' is a bit unnecessary. Also, the Frateris Templar were a thing before Vandire rose to power. But other than that, pretty much on the spot.

The problem there was that the High Lord of the Administratum holds a hell of a lot of power since he can basically cut off or over-equip any Guard or PDF unit he wishes by ordering the paperwork to be cludged. Then he went and engineered his way to the position of Ecclesiarch despite not being a churchman beforehand and he suddenly not only had the Guard under his thumb, but the Frateris Templar as well.

 1hadhq wrote:
The 1000 is what you get with 10 Companies of 100 Marines. A number GW ran with cause it is easy to remember.
A Chapter consists of more than those who are counted amongst the 10 Companies.


The Ultramarines are noted as having 23 known successors at 2nd founding ( codex SM ), but GW altered the size of the Legions too, so old numbers of 23.000 when Legions had 10.000 are not the same as 23.000 of 250.000 ....
So please don't worry too much about the 1000 marine thing. Its just GW.

Note the use of "known" in your second paragraph 10,000 years is a lot of time in which to lose information, as is proven regularly in the fluff.

It's not the 10,000 years, it's that the number of 23 is known from a particular in-setting book that wasn't written until a thousand years after the event.

A salient point that is usually overlooked by those decrying small chapter size is that the prescribed chapter size prevents a single marine from having absolute authority over more than 1,000 marines but does NOT prevent the *IMPERIUM* from fielding forces greater than 1,000. If the IMPERIUM want's a job done that requires 10,000 Astartes then the High Lords will order/cajole/bribe 10+ codex adherent chapters to provide personnel - who being codex trained will be more than capable of operating together in a unified manner (see the Damocle Gulf Crusade where - at least in its original writeup - the Astartes forces deployed were only 5 companies, but those 5 companies were ad-hoc formations created from marines from a dozen chapters).

Increasing the size would allow for greater glory for individual chapters but wouldn't make any difference to the overall Imperial war effort.

Interesting point: One of the few bits of fluff from Codex: Ultramarines to have been changed since is that in that hallowed tome the 1000 marines was explicitly stated (page 9, 5th paragraph) to be a 'guide' rather than an absolute rule - with many chapters exceeding this number in times of prolonged conflict, this had previously been stated in Epic, with WD having included info on Ultramarine company banners for up to 30 companies.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
GW and their complete inability to comprehend statistics.

Sci-Fi Writers Have No Sense of Scale

Even the descriptions of the size of the legions during the great crusade are so small as to be laughable.

It's fun to think that in some 40k games I have killed an entire company of Space marines. Including a large portion of their recruitment population.