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I was playing a game about 2 weeks ago and my BW killkannon target it some space marines that were in two different levels. I remember seeing somewhere in the new rules that the blast hits all of the levels not just one like in 6th. Was I imagining things or am I right and can someone please give me the page number cuz I've looked and can't find it.

There are no 'levels' in the current rules. You hit everything under the blast.

Does this work for templates also?

I couldn't imagine hitting 20 models with one flamer template..

You will not find anything that says blasts only hit only level.

The rules for blasts are in the Special Rules chapter, Blast section 4th graph. blasts hit everything under the marker.

 insaniak wrote:
There are no 'levels' in the current rules. You hit everything under the blast.

Do you know where I can find it or around what page

Awfeel wrote:Does this work for templates also?

I couldn't imagine hitting 20 models with one flamer template..

Yes, and no.

Yes, templates also hit everything underneath then.

But the only way to have the template over the ruin is to be standing on the top floor (or flying above it), as the requirement to touch the short end of the template to the firer's base somewhat limits how high you can get it.

sangheili wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
There are no 'levels' in the current rules. You hit everything under the blast.

Do you know where I can find it or around what page

You won't find a rule that pertains specifically to ruins. You simply follow the normal rules for blasts.

Yeah, it makes no sense.... but those are the rules....

Ok thanks guys. I just want to know the page number that shows the pic of the space marines inside the ruins and the blast marker on top of them. If that pic is in the 7th ed rules

No 7th Ed took out that section of rules on ruins which was in 6th. No one knows whether it is intentional or really a very big error. This has led to interpretation of rules such that Leman Russ can drive up to the top floor of ruins, if the distance is sufficient and you can balance it on top.


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A suggestion, if you are playing among friends, is to adopt the rules as given by 6th Ed. This is my personal opinion that it is more defined that way and neater. Applying that Ruins section in 6th Ed to 7th has no major conflict that I can see.

One thing I would like to point out:
Game Workshop is very keen on the idea of Datasheets, maybe even obsessed as the newer Codex's are calling the Army Entry within "Unit Datasheets," and has made the concept vital to even "Scratch Built" Terrain pieces. As these datasheet are designed to provide us with all the Rules required to use the subject matter said sheets, they are more specified then the general Rules and trump said general Rules whenever there is a conflict. This makes it possible for us to create something along the lines of 'multi-floor Ruins,' which comes with a Datasheet containing a version of all the 6th edition Rules for Ruins. We can even use official Models and simply switch out the Datasheets, and then claim the Model is 'Scratch Built' to make it entirely legal....

This can be further explored by the Appendix -Terrain Datasheet section.

 milkboy wrote:
No 7th Ed took out that section of rules on ruins which was in 6th. No one knows whether it is intentional or really a very big error. This has led to interpretation of rules such that Leman Russ can drive up to the top floor of ruins, if the distance is sufficient and you can balance it on top.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A suggestion, if you are playing among friends, is to adopt the rules as given by 6th Ed. This is my personal opinion that it is more defined that way and neater. Applying that Ruins section in 6th Ed to 7th has no major conflict that I can see.

Yea I was playing with a friend and my killkannon with 7th ed rules would have gotten like 9-11 of his death company. And with the 6th ed rules only three. So I was sure that levels didn't matter but since we couldn't find a clear answer we just went witht the 6th ed rules. Which by not killing his death company off with the kannon. And ghazghkull only hitting with one attack during assault phase led to his imperial knight charging and overrunning my nobz and ghaghzkull .

coredump wrote:
Yeah, it makes no sense.... but those are the rules....

Neither do Lascannons, Antigrav skimmers, elves, orks, Psykers, and armored space men riding giant wolves, but they are all within the game and no one complains that they make no sense.

How do lascannons not make sence? And for everything else it's called science fiction. It doesn't have to make sence. And I thought the thunderwolf cavalry rides robot wolves. So it makes sence

No, they ride organic "wolves" , which may be the failed aspirants where the Wilfred flaw goes really awry...

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, they ride organic "wolves" , which may be the failed aspirants where the Wilfred flaw goes really awry...

Shows how much someone from my local GW store who I quote, "being conservative has 25k points worth of space wolves" knows about his army

Maybe Jinxdragon is correct. You can either play it as is now, use 6th Ed or as a hybrid, incorporate the 6th Ed chapter into a ruins datasheets. I remember the 7th Ed terrain section did mention making your own. Like a more formalized pre game terrain discussion.

If a model's base is hidden from the Blast marker, does that model count towards the hits total?

I know the Blast can hit models out of the firer's LOS, but if the model was completely covered by a floor of the building, when you "take a good look from above" as instructed in the Blast Special rule, you can't see a model that is hidden, so should it count?

sangheili wrote:
How do lascannons not make sence? And I thought the thunderwolf cavalry rides robot wolves. So it makes sence

*Sense, not sence.

For something to "make sense" it has to be sensible, coherent, or reasonable, lascannons are not sensible, coherent, or reasonable since they are fictitious. Therefore they do not make sense because lascannons are fictitious.

and the TWC are not robot wolves.

And for everything else it's called science fiction. It doesn't have to make sence[sic].

The rules likewise do not need to make real world sense since it is science fiction.

Real World Common Sense/Real World Logic/How it works in the real world has no bearing on the 40k Ruleset.

Remember: The rules were not written to be "Modern day real world" logical.

The rules are an abstract system used to simulate a battle in the year 40,000.

What would happen in the modern day real world has nothing to do with the RAW, or the simulation of a battle fought 38,000 years from now. (and maybe not even on a planet with the same physical makeup as our earth, and probably different physics as well).

As such they need to have some compromises to make the game playable.


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Snapshot wrote:
If a model's base is hidden from the Blast marker, does that model count towards the hits total?

I know the Blast can hit models out of the firer's LOS, but if the model was completely covered by a floor of the building, when you "take a good look from above" as instructed in the Blast Special rule, you can't see a model that is hidden, so should it count?

it counts because the rules tell us that anything under the marker is hit.

If it were true that "you cant see it from above so it is not hit" then the templates and blast markers in the BRB, that they allow you to photocopy and use, would never generate any hits as you can not see through them.

Snapshot wrote:
If a model's base is hidden from the Blast marker, does that model count towards the hits total?

I know the Blast can hit models out of the firer's LOS, but if the model was completely covered by a floor of the building, when you "take a good look from above" as instructed in the Blast Special rule, you can't see a model that is hidden, so should it count?

There is a possibility that they wrote the rule but did not account for multilevel terrain. The phrase "all models under the template" alone does indeed mean all and they did qualify even if out of line of sight. The difference would be the "take a look from above" (not exact quotes as I do not have my rulebook with me now) which implies what you can see.

Since they did allow terrain dataslates to be created, this might be the most sensible solution for it. So for ruins, an additional property could be "blasts and templates only hit models on the top level of the ruins"

If not, to take the rule to the letter absolutely, then I'd say all blasts cannot hit anything, because when you look down through opague blast markers, you cannot see anything. But that is taking a poorly worded rule to extremes. For laughs, this argument can be proposed, just to see a few jaw-drops from your friends. Other than that, I would not do so.

New edition, new rules, it's time to adapt. Maybe putting a bunch of infantry all clumped together throughout multi level ruins whilst facing a ton of blasts may have been a good tactic in 6th, but it's certainly not in 7th. I would suggest rather than changing the rules to how it used to be, adapt your play to what they are now - that way you won't get annoyed/surprised/etc if you play someone else who plays by the actual rules in the 7th rulebook.

Milkboy - you dont have to "see" the model; the rule is everything under the marker, with a way to determine this benig to look down from above.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Milkboy - you dont have to "see" the model; the rule is everything under the marker, with a way to determine this benig to look down from above.

I think they should have taken away the "look from above" part. If what you say is what was intended, adding the "look from above" part only serves to confuse and removing it makes the rule clearer. I do agree more with what you said. Rules as they are now, will be played this way. It is only my opinion that they may have written the rules without considering multi level ruins. Or if they did consider it, they relied on the "create your own terrain dataslate" to satisfy everyone.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Milkboy - you dont have to "see" the model; the rule is everything under the marker, with a way to determine this benig to look down from above.

This is true, you do not need to be able to see them. I want to note, however, that you cannot allocate wounds to models outside of line of sight of any of the firing models, p35. Blasts have an exception to this rule, but templates do not. But you CAN use the template marker on them to generate hits. In fact, you have to if it allows you to hit the maximum number of models in the unit.

Looking from above is one way to do it, and often the easiest - but not the only. As has been said, this line was in prior editions, which had paper blast markers you could cut out....

I think they did not specify if it was one way to do it or the only way to do it. I am saying this because it opens up an angle for rule lawyering. If you exclude the line and just say "all models under the blast marker is hit", it doesn't give anyone a chance to say "but when I look from above, they are not visible"

Basically it introduces vagueness. If there is such a word.

 DeathReaper wrote:

coredump wrote:
Yeah, it makes no sense.... but those are the rules....

Neither do Lascannons, Antigrav skimmers, elves, orks, Psykers, and armored space men riding giant wolves, but they are all within the game and no one complains that they make no sense.

There is a significant difference between a game rule that does not make sense based on real world physics and knowledge, and a game rule that does not make sense based on the games own internal logic.

coredump wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

coredump wrote:
Yeah, it makes no sense.... but those are the rules....

Neither do Lascannons, Antigrav skimmers, elves, orks, Psykers, and armored space men riding giant wolves, but they are all within the game and no one complains that they make no sense.

There is a significant difference between a game rule that does not make sense based on real world physics and knowledge, and a game rule that does not make sense based on the games own internal logic.

So how does the blast marker rule not make sense?

The rule quite clearly states anything under the marker is hit.

So it makes sense that models under the marker are, well, hit. This would include models on multiple levels of terrain that are below each other and under the marker.

So how does the blast marker rule not make sense?

So how do the template rules make sense? If you fire a flamethrower on the ground floor, you hit the models on the ground floor.

If you fire the flamethrower on the 4th floor, you hit the models on the 4th floor, and 3rd, and 2nd, and ground.

First you were confused that I was referring to sense in a 'modern world' sense. Then you were confused that I was only referring to the Blast markers.

Perhaps you should get more information before attempting to 'correct' someone.

The rule quite clearly states anything under the marker is hit.

So it makes sense that models under the marker are, well, hit. This would include models on multiple levels of terrain that are below each other and under the marker.

And now you are confusing 'makes sense' with 'clearly written'. Two entirely different concepts.

coredump wrote:

So how does the blast marker rule not make sense?

So how do the template rules make sense? If you fire a flamethrower on the ground floor, you hit the models on the ground floor.

If you fire the flamethrower on the 4th floor, you hit the models on the 4th floor, and 3rd, and 2nd, and ground.

Ohh so you are injecting real world physics into the game rules. Stop doing that, as real world physics have no bearing on the rules.

First you were confused that I was referring to sense in a 'modern world' sense. Then you were confused that I was only referring to the Blast markers.

Perhaps you should get more information before attempting to 'correct' someone.

I have all the info I need. The rules make sense because they are written to hit models on the ground floor if you are on the ground floor, and hit models on floor 4,3,2,and 1 if you are on the 4th floor. The rules make sense that are not illogical, as they are written clearly.

P.S. do not bring real world physics into the ruleset, it has no bearing on a fantasy/Sci-Fi game.

And now you are confusing 'makes sense' with 'clearly written'. Two entirely different concepts.

They are clearly written and they make sense.

it makes sense that anything under the template or marker is hit, as that is what the rules say.

If you are higher up you will potentially hit more models as the template or marker has the potential to be above more models if you are standing on the top floor.

makes sense with the way it is clearly written.

It is not clearly written because it did not specify if looking from the top is the only way to determine models under the template or is it only one of the ways.

To take the rule, the whole rule must be considered. If it was redundant to add "look from above", then the rule writers must be very poor writers. If there is a reason, then the reason is not spelt clearly enough.