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So it seems the Harald Deathwolf can't be hit by fire weapons? And he gets outflank? Hmmmm... I wonder how much my friends will hate my new outflanking TWC

I now fully expect a 13th CO supplement in 6-8 months, with Mark of the Wulfen not appearing in the codex supposedly. =(

So I guess I may ask this here as its as good a place as any. The guy in the other thread who seems to have and I hope really does have the codex said plasma guns were 15 points each in the new codex for GHs?

Is that how much they are in the SM codex? Because holy crap going from 2 plasma guns for 10 points (because the second was free) to 30 points is quite a big change.

Yeah, 5/10/15 for flamer/melta/plasma has been the standard for Specials in Imperial books since 5th, although it was sometimes worked into the bvase cost in BA and the old SM book.

Super Newb wrote:
So I guess I may ask this here as its as good a place as any. The guy in the other thread who seems to have and I hope really does have the codex said plasma guns were 15 points each in the new codex for GHs?

Is that how much they are in the SM codex? Because holy crap going from 2 plasma guns for 10 points (because the second was free) to 30 points is quite a big change.

Yes they are both 15 points.
However I have been fooling around with my Grey Hunters and this is what they look like all kitted out, without a WGPL.

10 Grey Hunters
>6x Grey Hunters with Bolt Gun, Bolt Pistol, CCW
>2x Plasma Gun, Bolt Pistol, CCW.
>1x Plasma Pistol, Bolt Gun, CCW
>1 Power Fist, Bolt Gun, CCW
That will come out to about 228 points, 263 with the Drop Pod

Must admit, really disappointed with the release. Seems like they watered Spacewolves down and nerfed most units:

1) GH, more expensive
2) Sagas gone
3) Psychic abilities suck
4) Long fangs more expensive, no more TDA WG with CML
5)No mix and match with PA WG and TDA WG
6) HQ cheaper, but lost there quite abit of their flavour, no EW anymore....
7) No wolf tooth talisman 3++ and so on any more

I see only 2 positive things :
1) reduced points on assault heavy troops, which we all know don't do well at all in this edition...
2) Wolf priests seem to have been buffed with FNP 6+

I feel we've been reduced to a SM chapter, that could aswell just been put in C:SM, except we have a few special units more....

Not letting generic Wolf lords ride a chariot will severely cripple the Logan-kit. Im not going to complain though, this is absolute 100% proof GW isnt all about money

Ah, thanks for the info guys, I am clueless about points costs in most codexes.

 Anpu42 wrote:

However I have been fooling around with my Grey Hunters and this is what they look like all kitted out, without a WGPL.

10 Grey Hunters
>6x Grey Hunters with Bolt Gun, Bolt Pistol, CCW
>2x Plasma Gun, Bolt Pistol, CCW.
>1x Plasma Pistol, Bolt Gun, CCW
>1 Power Fist, Bolt Gun, CCW
That will come out to about 228 points, 263 with the Drop Pod

So for a drop pod list, assuming a WG combi-weapon is 10 points, I am thinking upgrading to a WG and giving him a combi-plasma is better for an 'alpha strike' than a plasma pistol GH. According to the Spanish codex leak, it is 10 points to upgrade a GH to a WG, and I am assuming 10 more points for the combi-weapon. That's 14+10+10 which is 34. A GH with a plasma pistol is 29. Worth 5 more points for one more plasma gun shot on the drop (and one extra CC attack from the WG if they get into CC)?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kas40k wrote:

5)No mix and match with PA WG and TDA WG

Yeah that sucks. At least the WG pack leader can be in TDA. Still I really liked having mixed PA and TDA WG squads...

Kas40k wrote:

I feel we've been reduced to a SM chapter, that could aswell just been put in C:SM, except we have a few special units more....

And:

Army wide counter attack & acute senses
Increased chance at outflanking units (roll before the game)
More characters base
Solo Suicide PA/Terminator models with FnP & EW
CM on a Chariot
TWC
New Flyer that's arguably better than a non-GK Stormraven
Uniquely equipable termies that in general cost only 3pts more than their counter-parts (makes sense with counter-attack)
Priests that give FnP 6+ to units and Prefer Enemy
Super Cheap Assault Marines & Power Armored Assault Scouts
Bike Riding Vets (something that doesn't exist outside of command squads in the SM book)
Assault Pack Vets
New Weapons
Lots of Variant Dreads

But yeah, totaly just a normal SM army....

Kas40k wrote:


I feel we've been reduced to a SM chapter, that could aswell just been put in C:SM, except we have a few special units more....

few special units

TWC
fenrisian wolves
Elite scouts
2 flyers
Lone wolves
special dreads
A space chariot!!

frost weapons
wolf claws
relics
hellfrost weapons

we still have our own flavour more so than salamanders or imperial fist or whatever

Honestly in a lot of ways it's still the best counts-as book out there for variant chapters. Most of the SM stuff but with the ability to build an army the way you like.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Honestly in a lot of ways it's still the best counts-as book out there for variant chapters. Most of the SM stuff but with the ability to build an army the way you like.

I'll probably be using it for my Khorne themed army

 Hulksmash wrote:

Kas40k wrote:

I feel we've been reduced to a SM chapter, that could aswell just been put in C:SM, except we have a few special units more....

And:

Army wide counter attack & acute senses
Increased chance at outflanking units (roll before the game)
More characters base
Solo Suicide PA/Terminator models with FnP & EW
CM on a Chariot
TWC
New Flyer that's arguably better than a non-GK Stormraven
Uniquely equipable termies that in general cost only 3pts more than their counter-parts (makes sense with counter-attack)
Priests that give FnP 6+ to units and Prefer Enemy
Super Cheap Assault Marines & Power Armored Assault Scouts
Bike Riding Vets (something that doesn't exist outside of command squads in the SM book)
Assault Pack Vets
New Weapons
Lots of Variant Dreads

But yeah, totaly just a normal SM army....

On paper maybe but:
1) Flyer, yeah it's cool, but as a GK player our flyers are expensive and are easily taken down by army with dedicated AA, which is easy for some armies: It just takes a flyer to come on one round later and with a high chance ~250 Points + all units in there. So there not really a good Transport IMHO.
2) Looking at CA and Acute senses.... has acute sense ever had any impact? Barely.
3) Cheaper assault units with WS3 and BS3.
4) New weapons? I only see Frost sword/axes, which aren't much better than counterparts (except axe if it gives S2+) or Cannon which kinda feels like "Can do everything, but nothing exceptional".

Also, of course my comment was a bit over the top, But that was just to underline the fact, that there a few things, I feel they just pushed a bit too far.

Kas40k wrote:
Must admit, really disappointed with the release. Seems like they watered Spacewolves down and nerfed most units:

1) GH, more expensive
2) Sagas gone
3) Psychic abilities suck
4) Long fangs more expensive, no more TDA WG with CML
5)No mix and match with PA WG and TDA WG
6) HQ cheaper, but lost there quite abit of their flavour, no EW anymore....
7) No wolf tooth talisman 3++ and so on any more

I see only 2 positive things :
1) reduced points on assault heavy troops, which we all know don't do well at all in this edition...
2) Wolf priests seem to have been buffed with FNP 6+

I feel we've been reduced to a SM chapter, that could aswell just been put in C:SM, except we have a few special units more....

We are nowhere near close to C: SM.
Space Wolves can not be played the same as C: SM, we still have most of our Strengths and Weakness. It looks like we are still a "Shooty Army with Superior Counter-Attack Ability.
What have we truly lost:
1] EW on Wolf Lords.
2] Attacking from the Rear Scouts
3] Cyclone Terminators with Long Fangs
4] MotW SPAM
5] Wolf Guard Shenanigans

What have we gained:
1] Cheaper Units overall.
2] Grey Hunter ability to take a WGPL in a Rhino/Drop along with your Second Special Weapon [Third if you count the Combi-Weapon], Retaining the Hidden Power Fist/Power Axe and still have a power Weapon available.
3] Scouts that can pack a Multi-Melta
4] Probably one of the best pair of Aircraft in the game, one you can load a full Blood Claw in with an Assault Ramp.
5] All Power Weapon/Power Fist/Thunder Hammer Thunder Wolf Packs

Kas40k wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:

Kas40k wrote:

I feel we've been reduced to a SM chapter, that could aswell just been put in C:SM, except we have a few special units more....

And:

Army wide counter attack & acute senses
Increased chance at outflanking units (roll before the game)
More characters base
Solo Suicide PA/Terminator models with FnP & EW
CM on a Chariot
TWC
New Flyer that's arguably better than a non-GK Stormraven
Uniquely equipable termies that in general cost only 3pts more than their counter-parts (makes sense with counter-attack)
Priests that give FnP 6+ to units and Prefer Enemy
Super Cheap Assault Marines & Power Armored Assault Scouts
Bike Riding Vets (something that doesn't exist outside of command squads in the SM book)
Assault Pack Vets
New Weapons
Lots of Variant Dreads

But yeah, totaly just a normal SM army....

On paper maybe but:
1) Flyer, yeah it's cool, but as a GK player our flyers are expensive and are easily taken down by army with dedicated AA, which is easy for some armies: It just takes a flyer to come on one round later and with a high chance ~250 Points + all units in there. So there not really a good Transport IMHO.
2) Looking at CA and Acute senses.... has acute sense ever had any impact? Barely.
3) Cheaper assault units with WS3 and BS3.
4) New weapons? I only see Frost sword/axes, which aren't much better than counterparts (except axe if it gives S2+) or Cannon which kinda feels like "Can do everything, but nothing exceptional".

Also, of course my comment was a bit over the top, But that was just to underline the fact, that there a few things, I feel they just pushed a bit too far.

So out of 14 things, which isn't everything, you object to 4 of them. And let's look at those 4:

As individuals Flyers have issues. In double or triplicate they are rock stars. Lord knows that actual anti-air is rare (really only done well by Wave Serpent Eldar and Necrons) and they are upgunned enough to be a nasty proposition to other flyers/FMC's/or tanks (which this edition pushes).

CA is worth 3pts on a terminator. CA is free on regular marines. It's our chapter tactic (which the good ones don't effect termies anyway so hence the cost bump). As for Acute Sense it didn't have any impact because there was almost zero outflanking. Now any troop unit can outflank on a roll of a 6+/4+ with a character and bring their dedicated transport with them. Acute Sense is much more likely to see use now.

WS3 BS3 don't matter in unit designed for CC. Most WS4 is going to be hitting on 4+'s the majority of the time in CC. So there isn't an effect from WS3 except against DP's and super characters. BS3 isn't good but it's offset by rage and getting those bonus attacks in CC.

Weapons different from SM include - All Frost Melee Weapons, 2 Ranged Frost Weapons, Wolf Claws, Dread Axe/Shield all while keeping the same base weapons as SM

Melee without EW is awful. Losing bear lord is awful. Ragnar being derpy is awful. There's a lot more bad than good. It continues the trend of bland, vanilla releases and selling you chocolate sauce and sprinkles later to get your flavor back.

Every way I used to run my Wolves is done. No more Logan bombs, no more superior 210-220 GH squads, no more bear lords. No more buckets of Ragnar attacks. Long Fangs appear to be stunted molars now. At least Lone Wolves are still good, but Arjac losing EW too? Geez...

Ugly flyers, childish new models, and killing old strategies and armies. Good show, GW. And assault blows, stop trying to up sell raged out bloodclaws in a flyer. If it dies, you remove all the claws and are left with a bunch of blood. Never seen this idea work in all of 6E, unless I'm missing something mind blowing in 7E.

Super Newb wrote:
So I guess I may ask this here as its as good a place as any. The guy in the other thread who seems to have and I hope really does have the codex said plasma guns were 15 points each in the new codex for GHs?

Is that how much they are in the SM codex? Because holy crap going from 2 plasma guns for 10 points (because the second was free) to 30 points is quite a big change.

Boo hoo, that's indeed what everyone else pays for them. Of course vanilla tacticals cannot even have two plasmas.

 TheKbob wrote:

Every way I used to run my Wolves is done. No more Logan bombs, no more superior 210-220 GH squads

They are still in that range

10 Grey Hunters
>6x Grey Hunters with Bolt Gun, Bolt Pistol, CCW
>2x Plasma Gun, Bolt Pistol, CCW.
>1x Plasma Pistol, Bolt Gun, CCW
>1 Power Fist, Bolt Gun, CCW
That will come out to about 228 points, 263 with the Drop Pod

I drop the Plasma Pistol and the Power Fist to an Power Axe that makes them 203, I drop the CCW and they go to 185, 220 with a pod.

Yeah, I think it's a bit early to sound the deathknell of SW guys. Take a minute and a deep breath and wait for the book. Once we've had a chance to make some lists, I think people will be happy.

Also, obligatory, this happens everytime we get a new edition. Do you know how many power fists I had to remove and remodel after 3rd edition ended?

 WallaceMerrett wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
The Last Laugh
If Lukas the Trickster is slain in a challenge, each player must roll a dice. If the Space Wolf player rolls high, Lukas' opponent is also removed as a casualty.

FFS. Last time I checked Lukas couldn't challenge a Titan... and whilst under the old Codex this is clearly an, if not the, unbalanced rule, when have you ever seen it used competitively? Pointless fun/fluff destroying nerf, that should see sales of the model die out completely. From "all models in base contact" to "a challenged opponent"... way to piss on some Fenrisian Chips GW.

So it is less fluff destroying to say a titan steps on a marine and is exploded...as opposed to cinematic (and I use this unironically) and awesome situation where a guy duels a big bad Chaos Lord or whatever, gets stabbed in the heart by a demon sword, holds onto the hilt of the blade so it can't be removed, laughs while spitting blood in his killer's face and then locking them both in a stasis bubble as a monument to Lukas' general dickery.

Personally, based on the fluff that looks EXACTLY like what it should be. If you don't like the rule because the previous one was more beneficial, sure that is your right of opinion.
But I would hope you wouldn't lean on "fluff destroying" when it seems to be painfully clear that it is bringing it more in line with what little fluff Lukas has rather than further away.

lexicanum -
Lukas later had a Stasis Bomb wired in place of his secondary heart, so that when his primary heart stops beating, he and the one who finally bests him will be frozen in time as a gruesome and eternal monument to his own glory - giving Lukas the last laugh after all.

Yeah, Stasis bomb'ing anything was dumb before. This makes a lot more sense. Depending on his cost, it may be a good idea for him to suck up challenges on the squad.

I just realized something with Luas as part of a Blood Claw Pack.
Blood Claw: Power Fist
WGPL: Power Sword
Lukas: Wolf Claw
Obligatory Wolf Priest: Power Maul
That is 4 Power Weapons!

 rodgers37 wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Honestly in a lot of ways it's still the best counts-as book out there for variant chapters. Most of the SM stuff but with the ability to build an army the way you like.

I'll probably be using it for my Khorne themed army

Everyone will be

SW, again, are the best khorne codex, still strangely better for khorne than an army with blood named everything. Call bloodclaws khorne berserkers, load up 15+ champion in stormfangs and call it a raining blood list.

 Anpu42 wrote:
I just realized something with Luas as part of a Blood Claw Pack.
Blood Claw: Power Fist
WGPL: Power Sword
Lukas: Wolf Claw
Obligatory Wolf Priest: Power Maul
That is 4 Power Weapons!

Yep. In a Stormclaw.

 Crimson wrote:

Super Newb wrote:
So I guess I may ask this here as its as good a place as any. The guy in the other thread who seems to have and I hope really does have the codex said plasma guns were 15 points each in the new codex for GHs?

Is that how much they are in the SM codex? Because holy crap going from 2 plasma guns for 10 points (because the second was free) to 30 points is quite a big change.

Boo hoo, that's indeed what everyone else pays for them. Of course vanilla tacticals cannot even have two plasmas.

Boo hoo? I suppose I am supposed to say something as mature as you, maybe something about 'butthurt'? Is that what the kids (or people who act like kids) are saying these days?

Id rather have:

10 GH, PG, PG, MotW, Standard, Rhino or Pod for 220. Was (and is) more efficient and made the Grey Hunter and the best tactical, which fits the fluff. Now they're just whatever, just another marine. And standard tacticals don't live long as is unless you leverage combat tactics and maximize either survival (iron hands), lethality (imperial fists) ,or speed (white scars).

I don't want another Tactical Marine. I want Grey Hunters.

Yeah Kbob, GHs definitely got nerfed quite a bit. They can't be good at shooting and CC for anywhere near the same points cost..

Grey hunters were ridiculously undercosted before. Stop crying about a deserved nerf to an OP unit.

 Hulksmash wrote:

Uniquely equipable termies that in general cost only 3pts more than their counter-parts (makes sense with counter-attack)

Why do people keep making that argument? It's not like we have chapter tactics and counter-attack. While I understand not all chapter tactics are useful (for terminators in particular), it's not like we only gain on that deal. Counter-attack is also somewhat situational - you still want to be the one assaulting.

Super Newb wrote:
Yeah Kbob, GHs definitely got nerfed quite a bit. They can't be good at shooting and CC for anywhere near the same points cost..

I think everyone expected that was coming though. They weren't nerfed so hard that they aren't still hella good though.

Old loadout: 10 GH - 150, 2 Melta - 5, Standard and Wulfen - 25 - 180
New Loadout 10 GH - 140, CCW - 20, 2 Melta - 20, WGPL - 10 - 190 So you lose standard and wulfen, but gain a WGBL for 10 points.

I don't like loss of Standard and Wulfen, but oh well.

There's also the fact that I can still take even cheaper GH and use them for Razorback purchases. 70 pt GH + Razorback just saved me points.