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 Anpu42 wrote:
So Grey Hunters got more expensive, there are still better than any other Tactical Squad out there and we should be paying for that.

It will also give one less thing for those Non-Wolves out there to whine about.

They are worse than marines because they cost more and don't benefit from combat squads. Acute senses is fluffy, but generally worthless. Counter attack would be chapter tactics, thus free at 14ppm.

Literally everything about them got worse. I expect this book to be not seen on the competitive circuits as "Space Marines do it better.". Rune Priests are just bog standard libbys. We lost our beat stick HQ option. And many other things got bland. The Flyer is nice, finally, but ugly as sin. Dreads are still dreads, terrible.

I don't see this book going anywhere. It deleted fluff and army composition. Its the same format and layout as orks, which is bad. So not much to be excited about. They didn't screw up Lone Wolves, yay!

 TheKbob wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
Id rather have:

10 GH, PG, PG, MotW, Standard, Rhino or Pod for 220. Was (and is) more efficient and made the Grey Hunter and the best tactical, which fits the fluff. Now they're just whatever, just another marine. And standard tacticals don't live long as is unless you leverage combat tactics and maximize either survival (iron hands), lethality (imperial fists) ,or speed (white scars).

I don't want another Tactical Marine. I want Grey Hunters.

10 GH, 2x PG, PW and Drop Pod is 220, I think 235 with the banner [and only one per detachment]
[Sarcasm] Yes that is a devastating crushing points rise [/Sarcasm]
if you field 4 Grey Hunter Packs that's is less than 5 points a Grey Hunter Pack points increase.

Nine less attacks standard, plus loss of mark, plus loss of rerolls on all units.

Yes, that's a big hit. Before, people would butt pucker at the thought of charging a fresh unit of Greys. Now it's much less scary. And I've already explained why tacticals blow this edition.

And you don't feel that it was a deserved hit though? Do you honestly believe that Grey Hunters were priced fairly for their abilities in comparison with their peers (ie, other tactical squads)? Grey Hunters are largely the same, they just cost more and lost a couple of OTT upgrades. They still have counter attack (which is better in 7th), they still have the option to get CCWs and two special weapons. They are still superior in damage output when compared to codex tactical squads in just about every way, but now they have to pay for that superiority. Why is that a problem?

People are always screaming about balance, and when GW tries to balance an underpriced unit by bringing its price and options more in line with similar units, those same people tend to scream about how it was an unnecessary nerf that ruined the unit.

 TheKbob wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
So Grey Hunters got more expensive, there are still better than any other Tactical Squad out there and we should be paying for that.

It will also give one less thing for those Non-Wolves out there to whine about.

They are worse than marines because they cost more and don't benefit from combat squads. Acute senses is fluffy, but generally worthless. Counter attack would be chapter tactics, thus free at 14ppm.

Literally everything about them got worse. I expect this book to be not seen on the competitive circuits as "Space Marines do it better.". Rune Priests are just bog standard libbys. We lost our beat stick HQ option. And many other things got bland. The Flyer is nice, finally, but ugly as sin. Dreads are still dreads, terrible.

I don't see this book going anywhere. It deleted fluff and army composition. Its the same format and layout as orks, which is bad. So not much to be excited about. They didn't screw up Lone Wolves, yay!

Well let's see

Space Marines: Ultramarines for reference

Same stats
Chapter Tactics and Combat Squads vs Acute Senses and Counterattack. Maybe in your opinion they aren't fair but it is in fact a fair trade. 2 rules for 2 rules. Just because Acute Senses and Outflank arn't used in competitive or your meta, doesn't mean it should be free. These cancel out.

Both have Bolter, BP, Grenades and PA. Grey Hunters have CCW which bumps their price. They are now externally balanced.

I actually cant believe how much dripping people are doing.

I just got the SW force from going halves on the latest boxed set with a mate and I am raring to go at it, from playing vanilla for years and nobody else, and carefully reading the codex entries, they do seem to have plenty of different units and compositions from vanilla, and I am certain I can make a decent list with just a few additions (I'm actually hoping to just repaint some of my many regular Space Marines to keep the cost down!)

Instead of endlessly whining, why not wait until you actually get your hands on the codex, and sit down and strategize, play around, BUILD a list from scratch, it is part of the fun.

Seriously I played against SW back in 5th and they were flat out broken, they could fit something like 18 ML into a 1000pt list, as such I see the dripping as nothing more than childish whining because some of the broken got fixed.

Do people realize assaulting is very difficult in 40k and that everything in the codex dies 1/3rd of the time? Spending 240 pts on a GH squad is insane. Rapid firing bolters will kill a 3rd of the squad, we wont even talk about good shooting units. My problem with this release is it did nothing to combat the two problems SW had in a fairly competitive situation...
1. Flier defense. Our flier is too expensive. No one takes Storm Ravens and they have almost as many guns and they are 30 pts cheaper! Our fliers look good but they aren't going to be competitive. A 250 pt model that comes in on turn 2-3, gets 1-2 rounds of good shooting if you are lucky and dont get blown up isnt great. Storm Talon, Night Scythes are both much better, less firepower but lots cheaper and more reliable.
2, Shooting. We are playing in a shooting game. Having counter assault elements is a good thing, a whole army of counter assault units is a bad thing as while we pull dead guys off the table, our opponent doesn't lose models. We have no units that can lay down withering firepower. Yeah we have all kinds of combiweapons, but very little round to round guns except for bolters and a few MLs Long Fangs that usually die after turn 2-3.

If you like the models- great, I do too. But posting units that are expensive and would never see a tournament table (which is fine) but claiming how good they are is pointless.

And outflanking is just as good/bad as it always was. You come on the wrong side of the table, you fail to make your reserve rolls, and when everything goes perfect and you come on when you want and where, the opponent has a full turn to blow you away before you do anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deadshot wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
So Grey Hunters got more expensive, there are still better than any other Tactical Squad out there and we should be paying for that.

It will also give one less thing for those Non-Wolves out there to whine about.

They are worse than marines because they cost more and don't benefit from combat squads. Acute senses is fluffy, but generally worthless. Counter attack would be chapter tactics, thus free at 14ppm.

Literally everything about them got worse. I expect this book to be not seen on the competitive circuits as "Space Marines do it better.". Rune Priests are just bog standard libbys. We lost our beat stick HQ option. And many other things got bland. The Flyer is nice, finally, but ugly as sin. Dreads are still dreads, terrible.

I don't see this book going anywhere. It deleted fluff and army composition. Its the same format and layout as orks, which is bad. So not much to be excited about. They didn't screw up Lone Wolves, yay!

Well let's see

Space Marines: Ultramarines for reference

Same stats
Chapter Tactics and Combat Squads vs Acute Senses and Counterattack. Maybe in your opinion they aren't fair but it is in fact a fair trade. 2 rules for 2 rules. Just because Acute Senses and Outflank arn't used in competitive or your meta, doesn't mean it should be free. These cancel out.

Both have Bolter, BP, Grenades and PA. Grey Hunters have CCW which bumps their price. They are now externally balanced.

But wait, if they are balanced, how come SM get Scouts as troops, that can take Storms? And how come SM get Centurions and Storm Talons? It is ridiculous to look at things in a vacuum which is what you are doing. C:SM has way more shooting elements than we do. They have more options in general. So why isnt okay if GH are 1 point better than they cost? Especially when C:SM can choose their chapter traits, whereas GH get 2 that are situational at best.

 TheKbob wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
So Grey Hunters got more expensive, there are still better than any other Tactical Squad out there and we should be paying for that.

It will also give one less thing for those Non-Wolves out there to whine about.

They are worse than marines because they cost more and don't benefit from combat squads. Acute senses is fluffy, but generally worthless. Counter attack would be chapter tactics, thus free at 14ppm.

They cost exactly the same, everything cost the same.
We just get to buy a CCW.

Literally everything about them got worse. I expect this book to be not seen on the competitive circuits as "Space Marines do it better.". Rune Priests are just bog standard libbys. We lost our beat stick HQ option. And many other things got bland. The Flyer is nice, finally, but ugly as sin. Dreads are still dreads, terrible.

On Dreads and EW
Dreads: Until they change the core rules for Walkers, they all have the same issue.
Eternal Warrior: Was created in response to ID. Rather than fix or remove ID, they came up with EW. Until they remove ID, the lack of EW will always be a problem, Not a SW Problem an Everybody Problem.
All of our HQ can be Beat-Sticks, they can just die like 90% of every other Multi-Wound Model out there.
Well I like out Fliers, personal opinion there will not argue that.

I don't see this book going anywhere. It deleted fluff and army composition. Its the same format and layout as Orks, which is bad. So not much to be excited about. They didn't screw up Lone Wolves, yay!

I personally look at Fluff changes to "New Codex Syndrome". I never read the fluff until I have had the bood for a month or so it will not influence my play.
Deleted Army Compensation???
FOC Changes: It mostly effects me because I normally only played with one HQ, now I need to come with one more for my "Core".
Lack of FOC Manipulation: They have been making that go away since late 6th. That and Anyone Can Score, Formations, & Unbound...it is unnecessary.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 gwarsh41 wrote:
So in the other thread it was said that the wolf standard gives +1 attack to all friendlies within 6" at all times. Pending on how cheap this is, it might be a nice way to go around the 2pt cost of a CCW. Or you just stack up both and have grey hunters with 4 attacks on the charge/counter attack.

That seems pretty nice. If we can put a wolf standard in wolf guard, that would be very, very nice. TDA running around with TH/SS and 3 attacks base?

The Standard for One Grey Hunter Pack per Detachment/Formation {Whatever it is called Now}
If you do it right that could cover 2-4 other Packs.

I am sure it's 6" assigned per model. In that case you'd need to be in a humorous formation to get more then one squad to benefit from that.


Really hanging on Lone Wolves here. Won't lie, losing MoW, normal standards and several other defining traits (sagas, logans high king, behind enemy lines) hurts, but I was expecting a fair amount of damage. Grey hunters went up to load out for combat, but honestly nobody assaults my vanilla marines anymore. Shooting is basically the only way to play competitively anyway. So really they make super cheap drop troops still.

I'd have to say codex marines have better troops though, combat squads is the most understated ability in 40k. It shocks me whenever I see players ignore this major difference. IMO that was the biggest price wolves pay for having more gear or abilities.

So I am curious, do the wolf players like what you are seeing? Seems you guys are happy.

So far this year we have oh how the codex is perceived as Tyranids Bad, AM Good, Orks Bad, SW Good? So I guess next release will be perceived as bad?

 Red Corsair wrote:
Really hanging on Lone Wolves here. Won't lie, losing MoW, normal standards and several other defining traits (sagas, logans high king, behind enemy lines) hurts, but I was expecting a fair amount of damage. Grey hunters went up to load out for combat, but honestly nobody assaults my vanilla marines anymore. Shooting is basically the only way to play competitively anyway. So really they make super cheap drop troops still.

It's funny because most of what you're talking about came from the last codex and it's really a defining SW trait. Having played SW since the beginning of 3rd, we've gone through a lot of iterations and this is looking to be just another one of those.

 Anpu42 wrote:

FOC Changes: It mostly effects me because I normally only played with one HQ, now I need to come with one more for my "Core".
Lack of FOC Manipulation: They have been making that go away since late 6th. That and Anyone Can Score, Formations, & Unbound...it is unnecessary.

AKA GW forcing you to use their bad mechanics because it means spending more money but will likely just force further disinterest.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 gwarsh41 wrote:
So in the other thread it was said that the wolf standard gives +1 attack to all friendlies within 6" at all times. Pending on how cheap this is, it might be a nice way to go around the 2pt cost of a CCW. Or you just stack up both and have grey hunters with 4 attacks on the charge/counter attack.

That seems pretty nice. If we can put a wolf standard in wolf guard, that would be very, very nice. TDA running around with TH/SS and 3 attacks base?

The Standard for One Grey Hunter Pack per Detachment/Formation {Whatever it is called Now}
If you do it right that could cover 2-4 other Packs.

I am sure it's 6" assigned per model. In that case you'd need to be in a humorous formation to get more then one squad to benefit from that.


Really hanging on Lone Wolves here. Won't lie, losing MoW, normal standards and several other defining traits (sagas, logans high king, behind enemy lines) hurts, but I was expecting a fair amount of damage. Grey hunters went up to load out for combat, but honestly nobody assaults my vanilla marines anymore. Shooting is basically the only way to play competitively anyway. So really they make super cheap drop troops still.

I'd have to say codex marines have better troops though, combat squads is the most understated ability in 40k. It shocks me whenever I see players ignore this major difference. IMO that was the biggest price wolves pay for having more gear or abilities.

Yes Combat Squads are probably the most under looked/used rule in the game.
The two thing people forget, You don't decide until you deploy most of the time. The rest of the time you are making the choice when you get out your transport.
That and you end up in an objective mission...POOF! I just doubled my number of Scoring/Denial Units!.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ravenous D wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

FOC Changes: It mostly effects me because I normally only played with one HQ, now I need to come with one more for my "Core".
Lack of FOC Manipulation: They have been making that go away since late 6th. That and Anyone Can Score, Formations, & Unbound...it is unnecessary.

AKA GW forcing you to use their bad mechanics because it means spending more money but will likely just force further disinterest.

Well for some that might be an issue, but for me, I have 25 years and 12k worth of models to choose from.
It is also not hard for most people to find a model to pop on a Power Weapon and go "Here is my Wolf Lord!"

Davor wrote:
So I am curious, do the wolf players like what you are seeing? Seems you guys are happy.

So far this year we have oh how the codex is perceived as Tyranids Bad, AM Good, Orks Bad, SW Good? So I guess next release will be perceived as bad?

I'd say SW is average, not good or bad.

Average in the true definition, not in the insulting way.

Davor wrote:
So I am curious, do the wolf players like what you are seeing? Seems you guys are happy.

So far this year we have oh how the codex is perceived as Tyranids Bad, AM Good, Orks Bad, SW Good? So I guess next release will be perceived as bad?

I think most of us are Happy.
There are things I Love
There are things I like
There are things that made me go "WT "
There are things I don't like.

Nothing I hate so far, though if you ask my wallet...

My metric for that is how much GW has gotten me to spend already. I have not bought a lot of NIB stuff for years. Previous to this, I think I may have bought a couple immolators 3-4 years ago as buy-in for a tournament.

Since Stormclaw, I've bought that and just ordered 2 Stormclaws, a Vendread and I'll definitely be getting Logan.

That's a big jump in spending.

I think I've got the answer, but I just wanted to clarify something...

for most squads (excluding Long Fangs), they don't come with sergeants, correct? So upgrading one of the members of the squad to a WGPL is what creates the 'squad leader', right?

If that is correct, how does that work with long fangs since they come with a long fang ancient? does the ancient become the WGPL or does the mystery 6th marine become the leader?

I only ask because I'm getting ready to start assembling some stuff, so I'm just trying to clarify. Sadly I won't be able to pick up my codex until next week.

 godswildcard wrote:
I think I've got the answer, but I just wanted to clarify something...

for most squads (excluding Long Fangs), they don't come with sergeants, correct? So upgrading one of the members of the squad to a WGPL is what creates the 'squad leader', right?

If that is correct, how does that work with long fangs since they come with a long fang ancient? does the ancient become the WGPL or does the mystery 6th marine become the leader?

I only ask because I'm getting ready to start assembling some stuff, so I'm just trying to clarify. Sadly I won't be able to pick up my codex until next week.

Supposedly it can be the Ancient, but I wouldn't assemble stuff until you get the codex if you are unsure.

 pretre wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Really hanging on Lone Wolves here. Won't lie, losing MoW, normal standards and several other defining traits (sagas, logans high king, behind enemy lines) hurts, but I was expecting a fair amount of damage. Grey hunters went up to load out for combat, but honestly nobody assaults my vanilla marines anymore. Shooting is basically the only way to play competitively anyway. So really they make super cheap drop troops still.

It's funny because most of what you're talking about came from the last codex and it's really a defining SW trait. Having played SW since the beginning of 3rd, we've gone through a lot of iterations and this is looking to be just another one of those.

I've played since them since 2nd, the third edition codex was a pamphlet. The first real substantial codex we have had since they changed the mechanics of 40k was the 5th ed codex. So to me, this is how they decided to define wolves. I am well aware they can retcon and change what they like, but a lot of the flavor is being lost here. Banners and MoW weren't just mechanics in game, they allowed for great modelling and themed armies. Now GH are much closer to tacs.

As I said, I don't think it's nearly as bad as some. Luckily we have the option for BP,BG CCW for example but I am nervous about what they may have done to lone wolves and Cav.

Also the new FOC doesn't have to be taken, you can take the one out of the main rules, which gives you the 1 HQ choice and 2 troops plus the bonuses that gives you. Meaning you don't have to take 2 HQ's to make a SW army legal.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Really hanging on Lone Wolves here. Won't lie, losing MoW, normal standards and several other defining traits (sagas, logans high king, behind enemy lines) hurts, but I was expecting a fair amount of damage. Grey hunters went up to load out for combat, but honestly nobody assaults my vanilla marines anymore. Shooting is basically the only way to play competitively anyway. So really they make super cheap drop troops still.

It's funny because most of what you're talking about came from the last codex and it's really a defining SW trait. Having played SW since the beginning of 3rd, we've gone through a lot of iterations and this is looking to be just another one of those.

I've played since them since 2nd, the third edition codex was a pamphlet. The first real substantial codex we have had since they changed the mechanics of 40k was the 5th ed codex. So to me, this is how they decided to define wolves. I am well aware they can retcon and change what they like, but a lot of the flavor is being lost here. Banners and MoW weren't just mechanics in game, they allowed for great modelling and themed armies. Now GH are much closer to tacs.

As I said, I don't think it's nearly as bad as some. Luckily we have the option for BP,BG CCW for example but I am nervous about what they may have done to lone wolves and Cav.

Playing them since Rouge Trader.
I loved 2nd
>10 Man Teleporting Terminators Packs with Assault Cannons and Cyclones for all.
>Long Fangs with a mix of Las-Cannons and Auto-Cannons
>Leman Russ Tanks.
The good old days.
3rd
>They removed Bjorn
>They removed Teleporting
> Removed Russ's
>Mandatory HQ per 750 Points
5th
>We got back Bjorn, but without his lighting Claw
>Gained Saga's
>x2 the Number of HQs

Now
>Bjorn Got back his Lighting Claw
>2-6 HQs
>Got Teleport Back
To me the now book feels much more like the 2nd edition book, and I think that is a good thing.

I've got 2 questions for you guys, first which dreadnough (excluding Bjorn) can take the hellfrost cannon and what's the cost ?

second question: who's that guy in the picture, why does he have a white armour !? because that's how i want to paint my SW army !

 RedFox wrote:
I've got 2 questions for you guys, first which dreadnough (excluding Bjorn) can take the hellfrost cannon and what's the cost ?

second question: who's that guy in the picture, why does he have a white armour !? because that's how i want to paint my SW army !

From what has been posted only Bjorn and Venerable can take the Helfrost Cannon.

As for the Picture, I think it is Harald Deathwolf, but I could be wrong.

I think it is harald deathwolf, his ice troll cloak protects him from flame weapons and pyromancy

And i think the colour change is mostly because of the light coming from the flames

That Stormfang looks like a Higgins boat with some X-wing parts stuck on. Murderwhatsit is just too silly for words. How much cheaper would GW stuff be if they didn't spend so much on all the paint thinner that you'd have to huff to think up crap like this?

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Really hanging on Lone Wolves here. Won't lie, losing MoW, normal standards and several other defining traits (sagas, logans high king, behind enemy lines) hurts, but I was expecting a fair amount of damage. Grey hunters went up to load out for combat, but honestly nobody assaults my vanilla marines anymore. Shooting is basically the only way to play competitively anyway. So really they make super cheap drop troops still.

It's funny because most of what you're talking about came from the last codex and it's really a defining SW trait. Having played SW since the beginning of 3rd, we've gone through a lot of iterations and this is looking to be just another one of those.

I've played since them since 2nd, the third edition codex was a pamphlet. The first real substantial codex we have had since they changed the mechanics of 40k was the 5th ed codex. So to me, this is how they decided to define wolves. I am well aware they can retcon and change what they like, but a lot of the flavor is being lost here. Banners and MoW weren't just mechanics in game, they allowed for great modelling and themed armies. Now GH are much closer to tacs.

As I said, I don't think it's nearly as bad as some. Luckily we have the option for BP,BG CCW for example but I am nervous about what they may have done to lone wolves and Cav.

Playing them since Rouge Trader.
I loved 2nd
>10 Man Teleporting Terminators Packs with Assault Cannons and Cyclones for all.
>Long Fangs with a mix of Las-Cannons and Auto-Cannons
>Leman Russ Tanks.
The good old days.
3rd
>They removed Bjorn
>They removed Teleporting
> Removed Russ's
>Mandatory HQ per 750 Points
5th
>We got back Bjorn, but without his lighting Claw
>Gained Saga's
>x2 the Number of HQs

Now
>Bjorn Got back his Lighting Claw
>2-6 HQs
>Got Teleport Back
To me the now book feels much more like the 2nd edition book, and I think that is a good thing.

See as much fun as 2nd was, it was a skirmish game, not really an army game. The 3rd codex was alot of fun but was a leaflet really. The 5th codex really cemented them as an army but I also loved that you could field small hero filled armies.

BTW I do love that they can field 6 HQ's. I can't wait to field 6 thunderwolf lords, 3 lone wolves and 3 single TWC units

Worst part is I modeled my Thunderwolf Lord(AKA Deathwolf) with a Power Fist since..I mean...did anyone actually use Frost Axes?

I hate ripping arms off.

On a positive note, I do like his rules..mostly. I think we will be seeing more TWC after this codex, even if assault isn't ideal.

 Bulldogging wrote:
I hate ripping arms off.

Luckily, I just magnetized my TWC lord, so it looks like he's gonna get Krom's axe pretty soon.

Also, ripping arms off is part and parcel of the deal. I counted all my GH/BC last night and figured out which ones had BP/Bolter, etc. Should be able to make it work even without arm ripping.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and I like the idea someone had of using Wulfen models as WGPL.

Sorry, I thought Greys were 15ppm.
They still are lack luster boring marines. I laughed out loud at 2 rules for 2 rules, bro type statement. Yea Combat Squad and Scout, FNP, or Bolter Drill vs Counter Attack and Acute Senses. Amazing versus nearly worthless.

you ever try to use unbound as an argument, you're falling for GW marketing schlock. Tournaments don't use it and you lose objective secured, which is scoring now. And formations? Great, please tell me more of what used to be an option the book. Just increase the material bloat and cost to play more. That's not hurting them in the least (points to financial thread...).

Instant death is terrible. But if people aren't taking 50 pt multi-wpund models because of it, why take 200+ point models like the bear lord? You don't because it's a gateway to "having a bad time". Before, a bear lord could fight a dreadknight or wraithknight. Now he can't unless you want to gamble your snowflake. Its just making assault worse, not better.

This book feels like the "vanilla" release of wolves, much like all the releases this year. People complained that a balanced game would make it more vanilla. Rather, its sales tactics that are, minus the balance.

 Bulldogging wrote:
Worst part is I modeled my Thunderwolf Lord(AKA Deathwolf) with a Power Fist since..I mean...did anyone actually use Frost Axes?

I hate ripping arms off.

On a positive note, I do like his rules..mostly. I think we will be seeing more TWC after this codex, even if assault isn't ideal.

Well I have mine Thunderlords with
Clarkston: Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield, +2 Wolves
May: Wolf Claw/Power Fist, +2 Wolves
Hammond: Power Lance/Frost Axe [I am using the of the DA Terminator Pole Arm for him], +2 Wolves
The Iron Priest Stigg: Thunder Hammer and 4 Cyberwolves
TWCx5: Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield, the rest now Power Lance/Storm Shield

Oh yeah and Fenrisian Wolves look to be cheaper if Harald is any indication.

As someone who has stopped playing the game due to supreme dislike of the core rules, how good something is on the tabletop is much less of a concern as opposed to unit composition, wargear, special rules that reflect fluff etc. What does my SW army look like now. Overall I'm going to have to go with not too shabby. Ill miss my MOTW, but it doesn't invalidate the model that I used to represent him. I love the new detail on the dread kit and having our own dedicated flier is ace.