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 Red Corsair wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
WS3 doesn't really make a difference, they're still hitting most things on a 4+. Being hit on a 3+ by MEQ might hurt, but they can do enough damage with the huge number of attacks to mitigate that. You also get more bodies, so can absorb damage better than most MEQ.

They are one dimensional though. All in on assault in an edition that punishes being CC oriented. I agree at least they are cheap, the high model count is a trap I think though. The only way to get them there is with a 230-250+ point transport.

It will be fun as hell the odd time it hits something worth hitting though. Facing MSU will be annoying though.

To be honest, shooting edition or not, I can see a pair of maxed out footslogging squads (the seconds coming in cheaper than the transport) making it across the board, given proper positioning and decent terrain coverage, not to mention other units taking fire off them. (pod in some GH to tear things up or run up a flank with some TWC). Assault is still a very deadly tool, and BC look to be in a very good position to do it, given the points drop, the fact babysitting them is not a necessity and the potential for outflanking with the formation.

I laugh at the folks who I know are ignoring me because ignoring facts of matters doesn't change them. Its easier to be happy when you insulate yourself from "negativity" (e.g. reality).

I'd not park your birds on skyshields. They start the game in hover, IIRC, thus 4++ or not, that's got first blood target written on it, more so if packed full of goodies. And third turn assaults otherwise are lack luster to dump 600 points into.

I see blood claws being used because they are cheaper, probably with flamers. The 3++ save dreads as distractions. Flyers with minimums squad Grey hunters, all Cron Air style and the cheapest HQ possible. None of the named ones do anything of note anymore and you can't tool up a combat master, either. The heavy slot,followed by elites, are probably is what will eat up space. If Bjorn doesnt have his negative Nancy thing, I could see podding him, too.

Relying on HQs to give units outflank randomly isn't solid enough to count on (score another point for White Scars).

Bascially, I'm not seeing a specialization pop out of wolves. DA is death wing or raven wing. The chapter tactics MA for obvious builds in vanilla. What's in Space Wolves to point at to make them mid field masters? Used to be Grey Hunters but not anymore. Now I do see them as just another marine chapter
:/

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
2nd turn assault sounds wishful, and now your in more for the damn pad.

The thing is, you are not buying a pad for the Flyer only. With the shields up if gives anything on the Pad a 4++ Save.
Turn One:
You go First, Move 12" then 12" Flat Out
You go second, your Stormfang has a 4++ Save. Move 12" then 12" Flat Out, Jink if you have to.

Next turn move 6" And Assault out of it.
I put my 3 Land Typhoons on it, they now have a 4++ Save.

It's a flier so turn one your in reserve.

Turn 2 roll a die and hope for a 3+.

If the shields up you can't DS onto it.

Does it have DS anyway?

So yea basically it's T3 assault at the earliest.

I believe the Skyshield has a rule allowing you to start a flier on it in Stronghold Assault

I am not saying they are bad just illustrating that they are about right for what they are. They aren't amazing by any stretch. 9 outta 10 times you'll end up curb stomping something from an MSU list or GEQ and thats actually bad since you want to hide in assault. Personally I am not sure I'd go for specials in that unit as it bloats the price and increases the units assault distance. If they are shooting a vehicle something has gone horribly wrong

Never received confirmation, but are bike/jump pack claws both in the FA choice - or is one an elite?

 Paradigm wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
2nd turn assault sounds wishful, and now your in more for the damn pad.

The thing is, you are not buying a pad for the Flyer only. With the shields up if gives anything on the Pad a 4++ Save.
Turn One:
You go First, Move 12" then 12" Flat Out
You go second, your Stormfang has a 4++ Save. Move 12" then 12" Flat Out, Jink if you have to.

Next turn move 6" And Assault out of it.
I put my 3 Land Typhoons on it, they now have a 4++ Save.

It's a flier so turn one your in reserve.

Turn 2 roll a die and hope for a 3+.

If the shields up you can't DS onto it.

Does it have DS anyway?

So yea basically it's T3 assault at the earliest.

I believe the Skyshield has a rule allowing you to start a flier on it in Stronghold Assault

Ah good to know. Se I went and spared myself 50 bucks so now I am in the dark

 TheKbob wrote:
What's in Space Wolves to point at to make them mid field masters? Used to be Grey Hunters but not anymore. Now I do see them as just another marine chapter
:/

Still GH. They're more expensive, but lost none of what made them good at their core (CA and the 3 weapons/dual specials). Loss of MOTW and the changed banner hurt, but those were always add-ons in my view anyway, far from essential to how the unit worked.

 Hulksmash wrote:
I wonder if a WG unit can take the Standard....

Imagine a bike mounted unit with the standard. 5 Attacks on the charge. Even without 25pt Vet Bikers is scary as hell with the new Jink rules. Add a few combi's and power axes and go to town.

I wonder if (and I think you asked this previously) TWC can join other units. TWC Lord (Or Harald) with a bike WG squad? Hmm.

 TheKbob wrote:
Used to be Grey Hunters but not anymore. Now I do see them as just another marine chapter:/

What truly changed that? You can build them with even more mid-ranged than the last Codex. They did not loose a single "Gun" Option and with a WGPL can easily gain a Combi-Weapon.
My normal Plasma-Armed Grey Hunters just whet from 5 Plasma Shots at 12" to 7 Shots.

 Paradigm wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
What's in Space Wolves to point at to make them mid field masters? Used to be Grey Hunters but not anymore. Now I do see them as just another marine chapter
:/

Still GH. They're more expensive, but lost none of what made them good at their core (CA and the 3 weapons/dual specials). Loss of MOTW and the changed banner hurt, but those were always add-ons in my view anyway, far from essential to how the unit worked.

I don't see it. 205 pts for 10 in a rhino with two plasma. For 220, I got 10, 2 Plasma, Standard, MotW and CCW. That is a massive Nerf. With MSU being the MO of 7E, combat squading is worth its weight in gold. Acute senses is not. With the lack of close combat with Eldar and such, why assault when you can shoot or reposition? Making 10 man squads further bad.

I'd say its going to be naked five man GHs in flyers times three and flamer blood claws in Lazerbaks. The era of 10 man marine squads is dead given volume of fire and the need for greater board control.

 TheKbob wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
What's in Space Wolves to point at to make them mid field masters? Used to be Grey Hunters but not anymore. Now I do see them as just another marine chapter
:/

Still GH. They're more expensive, but lost none of what made them good at their core (CA and the 3 weapons/dual specials). Loss of MOTW and the changed banner hurt, but those were always add-ons in my view anyway, far from essential to how the unit worked.

I don't see it. 205 pts for 10 in a rhino with two plasma. For 220, I got 10, 2 Plasma, Standard, MotW and CCW. That is a massive Nerf. With MSU being the MO of 7E, combat squading is worth its weight in gold. Acute senses is not. With the lack of close combat with Eldar and such, why assault when you can shoot or reposition? Making 10 man squads further bad.

I'd say its going to be makes five man I'm flyers times three and flamer blood claws in Lazerbaks. The era of 10 man marine squads is dead given volume of fire and the need for greater board control.

15 points is a Massive(?) Nerf?
So they cost a little more, if you take CCW, witch by your statements are just a waist of points because they will die to fire before they can do anything.
The rest of the Army is much Cheaper. My Venerable Dread just dropped by 50+ points, my Speeders just dropped by like 30-50 points a piece, My rune Priest just dropped by 50 Points. if I can figure out how to get another 100 points it just bought another Grey Hunter Pack.

I'd say try out your old 5th ed Razor spam and see how you do.

I've seen a lot of older 5th ed lists popping up around the store and feel they have done quite well.

 Anpu42 wrote:

15 points is a Massive(?) Nerf?
So they cost a little more, if you take CCW, witch by your statements are just a waist of points because they will die to fire before they can do anything.
The rest of the Army is much Cheaper. My Venerable Dread just dropped by 50+ points, my Speeders just dropped by like 30-50 points a piece, My rune Priest just dropped by 50 Points. if I can figure out how to get another 100 points it just bought another Grey Hunter Pack.

To make the same unit is 240. Yes, when your standard troop loses efficiency, that's bad. Your method runs at 270! That's insane for troops. They have to be plentiful and efficient or extremely durable and/or fast.

Tell me how dreads, speeders or rune priests will be any good? I'd say Wolf Priests might be the go to with 6+ FNP. I will tale always on buffs versus the new crap psychic phase.

I'll watch the scene, but from a competitive standing, it seems very weak. From a fluff standing, you lose Mark of the Wulfen and gain Murderfang.... Wulfen Robot Wolverine. No thanks. And I'm anti lords of war and GW reclassifying HQs into that category. Its just a way to shoe horn in dumb rules and units, gate way to rock em sock em robots.

 TheKbob wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
What's in Space Wolves to point at to make them mid field masters? Used to be Grey Hunters but not anymore. Now I do see them as just another marine chapter
:/

Still GH. They're more expensive, but lost none of what made them good at their core (CA and the 3 weapons/dual specials). Loss of MOTW and the changed banner hurt, but those were always add-ons in my view anyway, far from essential to how the unit worked.

I don't see it. 205 pts for 10 in a rhino with two plasma. For 220, I got 10, 2 Plasma, Standard, MotW and CCW. That is a massive Nerf. With MSU being the MO of 7E, combat squading is worth its weight in gold. Acute senses is not. With the lack of close combat with Eldar and such, why assault when you can shoot or reposition? Making 10 man squads further bad.

I'd say its going to be naked five man GHs in flyers times three and flamer blood claws in Lazerbaks. The era of 10 man marine squads is dead given volume of fire and the need for greater board control.

To be honest, the special weapon cost going up was neither unexpected nor unwarranted; I don't really see how one can complain about paying the same price as every other MEQ army for those weapons. A plasmagun at 15 points it still good, as is a melta for 10.

As for the CCW, that allows you to gear the squad more for certain roles. With the last codex, you pay for what you're not going to use in some cases, such as against armies you're better off shooting (Orks, Nids) or can beat in CC without the extra attacks (Tau, most Eldar, most Guard), so now you can save those points if assault isn't your preferred style.

I will grant you that losing MOTW and the banner is undoubtedly a loss, but can actually go some way to saving the points you pay for more expensive GH. 6th and 7th have awarded specialisation, and this codex really does allow you to gear your GH for specific roles.

Such a cheerful fellow ThekBob

Razorback lists will depend on if the got the point bump the SM ones did.

Honestly the win in this codex is in the elites and fast attack. And as long as Rune Priests can take Telepathy I'm going to be a happy camper. If not then Biomancy might be the winner for me with them. Boosting units of GH's or BC's in pods.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Such a cheerful fellow ThekBob

Yeah, there's a button for guys like him.

Razorback lists will depend on if the got the point bump the SM ones did.

Honestly the win in this codex is in the elites and fast attack. And as long as Rune Priests can take Telepathy I'm going to be a happy camper. If not then Biomancy might be the winner for me with them. Boosting units of GH's or BC's in pods.

I'm very eager to see what disciplines they get and how much they cost.

TWC possibly being only 40 pts each practically makes them auto-take so long as nothing else was changed about them.

So do we know the break out for FA/Troop/Elites/Heavy yet?

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
TWC possibly being only 40 pts each practically makes them auto-take so long as nothing else was changed about them.

I don't know about auto-take, but still good.

Anpu42- I am not disagreeing with you about some point reductions, but my thoughts are this and maybe they are what TheKBob is saying- even with the reduction, dreads, especially non shooting dreads arent good in a competitive environment. Non one took Ven Dreads in any sort of competitive list the last few years. Even at 145, I think the Ven Dread is too expensive. Whether it be on the first roll or the 4th, he will fail a 3+ and blow up. Speeders- if speeders were so very good, you would see them all over every SM list out there, you don't, so just because there is a point drop, doesn't make them good. Rune Priests, massively overcosted once the Chaos SM codex came out and just got worse. I stopped using mine awhile ago. I still think at level 2, they arent worth it, 5 dice on avg per turn and to cast a WC 2 spell you need 5 dice. They don't fight well in CC so they are average at best. I guess my biggest point is this, SW have not been competitive in 6th or 7th, and with the rules being weighted towards shooting, this codex appears to do nothing to fix them, close combat units went down in price and GH, LF appear to have gotten a bit more expensive and WG got worse now that you cant use mix armor and get more of the Heavy Weapons. We needed a platform with some weight of fire, I was hoping for a LR Executioner with lots of mid str 7 shots to help compensate, but unfortunately we didnt get it. We got a cool looking flyer in my opinion,. but in game terms it is too expensive, more expensive than the Storm Raven and you don't see them in competitive games/tournaments because of the risk involved in sinking 600 pts in a unit and having it come on late or get shot down. I agree with TheKBob, I think a Land Raider is safer and they aren't even viewed as a competitive choice, or you would see more SM players use them- I guess Iron Hands would make them better.

Agreed. As fast as they are a turn 2 (maybe turn one if your opponent moves to close) charge is possibly. And they deal some damage. I think it's kinda cool. They are pretty comparable to a similar pointed unit of WG on bikes which is nice to see that kind of resiliency around the list.

 Paradigm wrote:

As for the CCW, that allows you to gear the squad more for certain roles. With the last codex, you pay for what you're not going to use in some cases, such as against armies you're better off shooting (Orks, Nids) or can beat in CC without the extra attacks (Tau, most Eldar, most Guard), so now you can save those points if assault isn't your preferred style.

I will grant you that losing MOTW and the banner is undoubtedly a loss, but can actually go some way to saving the points you pay for more expensive GH. 6th and 7th have awarded specialisation, and this codex really does allow you to gear your GH for specific roles.

That's list tailoring, though. Before we had the Emperor's Executioners. The tacticals are supposed to be the best. At 15ppm, that justified this. Making them the same, or worse compared to vanilla marines, doesn't exemplify this. Wolves made up for it by putting rookies in all the other slots that other chapters do better (assault, jump, bikes, etc.).

Now its Grey Marines with Wolf Toys. The Grey Hunter needed no change. Id you don't track the competitive seen, they arent even on it. Now they definitely won't be because that's how good combat squads are. That free weapon went a long way due to this.

 TheKbob wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:

As for the CCW, that allows you to gear the squad more for certain roles. With the last codex, you pay for what you're not going to use in some cases, such as against armies you're better off shooting (Orks, Nids) or can beat in CC without the extra attacks (Tau, most Eldar, most Guard), so now you can save those points if assault isn't your preferred style.

I will grant you that losing MOTW and the banner is undoubtedly a loss, but can actually go some way to saving the points you pay for more expensive GH. 6th and 7th have awarded specialisation, and this codex really does allow you to gear your GH for specific roles.

That's list tailoring, though. Before we had the Emperor's Executioners. The tacticals are supposed to be the best. At 15ppm, that justified this. Making them the same, or worse compared to vanilla marines, doesn't exemplify this. Wolves made up for it by putting rookies in all the other slots that other chapters do better (assault, jump, bikes, etc.).

Now its Grey Marines with Wolf Toys. The Grey Hunter needed no change. Id you don't track the competitive seen, they arent even on it. Now they definitely won't be because that's how good combat squads are. That free weapon went a long way due to this.

It's not list tailoring, it's army/meta tailoring, which if you know your meta and opponents is pretty much impossible not to do at a subconscious level. If you see a lot of shooting-heavy infantry lists and make the choice to take the extra CCW and a pair of flamers, that's not list tailoring, just a tactical choice.

Anyway, that's a tangent.

on
I do have to admit I have been seeing a lot of people unhappy.
Unhappy about Space Wolves being brought in line with all of the other Space Marines.
The Complaints as I am seeing them:
We are now paying for Weapons we used to get for FREE that no other Marine got for Free.
Some of the really neat Wargear is now gone, it sucks, but now we don't have to pay for Situational Wargear any more.
Sagas are now Warlord Traits, who did not see this coming, it is not like we are paying Points for them, They are Free for everyone. Heck half the time I forget to use them.

They [GW] Addressed most of the issues everyone had with Codex: Space Wolves. Now they did not addressed them like YOU would have, but they did.

Once I get my hand on my Codex, I will build some of my old list and most likely like when the C: SW, 6th Ed and 7th Ed came out I will have to make some adjustments both with modeling and play style.
It looks though like it will be a good Codex: Space Wolves and probably a Good Codex in General. It is not to Powerful or To weak.
off

 Paradigm wrote:



It's not list tailoring, it's army/meta tailoring, which if you know your meta and opponents is pretty much impossible not to do at a subconscious level. If you see a lot of shooting-heavy infantry lists and make the choice to take the extra CCW and a pair of flamers, that's not list tailoring, just a tactical choice.

Anyway, that's a tangent.

Its a tangent, but its alsoy view of the book (and 40k). A good TAC list should do well regardless of play area or meta. I list built with no single store or player in mind always. It madey lists resllient. At the core was always four to six full squads of Grey Hunters while marine players took scouts (or white scars tacs). 7E is a different story, but not enough has changed to invalidate the overall strategy except more resilliebt vehicles on the higher Av end and objective secured MSU being king.

I dislike flyers (model size, dollar cost, and rules), so seeing Wolves move that way makes me upset.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu42 wrote:
on
I do have to admit I have been seeing a lot of people unhappy.
Unhappy about Space Wolves being brought in line with all of the other Space Marines.
The Complaints as I am seeing them:
We are now paying for Weapons we used to get for FREE that no other Marine got for Free.
Some of the really neat Wargear is now gone, it sucks, but now we don't have to pay for Situational Wargear any more.
Sagas are now Warlord Traits, who did not see this coming, it is not like we are paying Points for them, They are Free for everyone. Heck half the time I forget to use them.

They [GW] Addressed most of the issues everyone had with Codex: Space Wolves. Now they did not addressed them like YOU would have, but they did.

Once I get my hand on my Codex, I will build some of my old list and most likely like when the C: SW, 6th Ed and 7th Ed came out I will have to make some adjustments both with modeling and play style.
It looks though like it will be a good Codex: Space Wolves and probably a Good Codex in General. It is not to Powerful or To weak.
off

Based on this, it seems like you misunderstand my posts entirely and I'm talking past you and not with. If you don't understand the changes to Grey Hunters fundamentally, then I can't help you. Having cheaper points costs for mediocre units just means I can bring more of them.

70ppm SS Thunder wolves sounds interesting. Did their LD go up? If not, they still need an expensive baby sitter.

 Paradigm wrote:
I will grant you that losing MOTW and the banner is undoubtedly a loss, but can actually go some way to saving the points you pay for more expensive GH.

GHs nerfed, but that's okay, because the things you can't buy any longer will pay for your nerfing!


I know you're not justifying it, but rather a "silver lining" sort of thing, but it just read funnily in my head.


As to the codex, I'm not ready to write it off the way I could Nids or Orks; though I admit I sense the same sort of "uninspired randomly drop stuff and change what doesn't need changing" funk that permeated Orks and Nids. Chooser of the Slain? Gone. Mark of the Wulfen? Gone. GH Banner? Gone. OBEL? Gone. Sagas? Gone. (No, calling Warlord Traits "Sagas" doesn't count.) Fenrisian Wolves? Gone? I mean, was that really a needed cut? Lots of "Space Wolf" things just cut with no rhyme or reason. Seems to be the order of the day with 7e codexes thusfar.

Grey Hunters taking a hit wasn't entirely unexpected. I'll suck it up and pay the 2ppm for my CCWs back, and the extra cost for special weapons. I do agree with Kbob that Grey Hunters came down in power vs Tac Squads with the meta change to MSU. We can't combat squad, so the double special vs. double + heavy isn't really as big a factor as it used to be. Getting the extra Plasma Pistol and PW/PF is nice though, and I'm sure plenty of Iron Warriors will think long and hard about switching to SW rules to get their Terminator squad leaders back.

Dreads coming down in price is nice, especially with the survivability boost walkers/vehicles got in 7th. I'm still not sure venedreads will be all that great, and I can't frankly see the use of the Axe/Shield dread at all. It's not like it's a Wraith* that gets shooting in addition to its melee boost from the weapon. Overall I'll probably stick with my Podding dread w/ MM+PF/HF.

Wolf Scouts got kicked in the nuts hard. Losing OBEL doesn't make up for their cheaper cost, since it basically removes their primary use: nuking vehicle back armor. They probably should have moved to troops, since they're no longer 0-1 and frankly aren't really worth an elite slot as of yet. Although I guess it's not like elites are crowded...

Blood Claws are still 'meh' to me, even at 12ppm. Sure, their 4 attacks each on the charge sounds awesome, but it's not like assault is all that great in 7th (barring Waaaghing orks being able to run+charge). If you want any reliable chance of them hitting a target you're looking at another 200+ for a transport, which is very "eggs all in a basket". We'll see though. I'll give them a shot, if nothing else to get my models off the shelf.

And yet, despite all that, I'm still pumped for this release. Grey Hunters are still good solid troops. Thunderwolves are still dangerous (I think). My Wolf Lord will still shred face, and my Long Fangs are still splitting fire. We have yet to see what pops up in the supplement also, so there's still room for some surprises. (And if Waaagh! Ghazgkull is any indication, the supplement may contain some sweet formations and new relics.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu42 wrote:
They [GW] Addressed most of the issues everyone had with Codex: Space Wolves. Now they did not addressed them like YOU would have, but they did.

Let's be real: GW addressed "most of the issues" non Space Wolf players had with Codex: Space Wolves. I'm not sure any Space Wolf player has ever said "Man, I sure wish my Wolf Scouts didn't have OBEL and I'm sure hating having all these optional options!"

My issue is the way GW went about correcting the issues.

Instead of keeping the unique options and addressing the issues and making them balanced, whether it be rule alterations or point adjustments they did a blanket delete.

I frankly don't really see the reason why the new wolves simply cant be rolled into the main spacemarine codex, as they stand, with a small supplement to fill the gap. Thats what they are doing with everything else now.

sturguard wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
[quote=Anpu42 605383 7091331 0a7d7ba21559c4c

They are worse than marines because they cost more and don't benefit from combat squads. Acute senses is fluffy, but generally worthless. Counter attack would be chapter tactics, thus free at 14ppm.

Literally everything about them got worse. I expect this book to be not seen on the competitive circuits as "Space Marines do it better.". Rune Priests are just bog standard libbys. We lost our beat stick HQ option. And many other things got bland. The Flyer is nice, finally, but ugly as sin. Dreads are still dreads, terrible

Well let's see

Space Marines: Ultramarines for reference

Same stats
Chapter Tactics and Combat Squads vs Acute Senses and Counterattack. Maybe in your opinion they aren't fair but it is in fact a fair trade. 2 rules for 2 rules. Just because Acute Senses and Outflank arn't used in competitive or your meta, doesn't mean it should be free. These cancel out.

Both have Bolter, BP, Grenades and PA. Grey Hunters have CCW which bumps their price. They are now externally balanced.

But wait, if they are balanced, how come SM get Scouts as troops, that can take Storms? And how come SM get Centurions and Storm Talons? It is ridiculous to look at things in a vacuum which is what you are doing. C:SM has way more shooting elements than we do. They have more options in general. So why isnt okay if GH are 1 point better than they cost? Especially when C:SM can choose their chapter traits, whereas GH get 2 that are situational at best.

Ok, so to start, both SW and SM get the "new recruits" as troops. The difference is that SW newbs are Blood Claws and wear PA, and SM ones are Neophyte scouts. As to why they don't use Storms, probably the whole "boots on the ground" thing. These are very odd wolves you have to remember who are anti-social loners. So who knows what they think like.
Stormtalons? You have 2 other Gunships. Different ones because the SW don't get on with everyone else. In terms of fluff these Gunships are far superior having more, bigger and better guns and transport capacity, so a Stormtalon is redundant.
Centurions? Why would they use them? Centurions are heavily specialised tools. Sure, SW don't do Codex but Centurions are best suited to Assault Squads and Devastators for sieges simply by nature. Assault Squads in SW, AKA, Blood/Sky/Swiftclaws...are noobs. You gonna put your Ultramarine scouts in one? Didn't think so. Long Fangs in Centurions would be great and fluffy and awesome but I guess there's too little of them?

The only way to determine if GH are balanced vs their Vanilla counterpart is to compare them straight up. You start factoring in the rest of the hundreds and thousands of possible combinations, dice rolls and opponents and you have more variables than can sanely be calculated.

Compared to a basic 10 man Tactical Squad with no upgrades vs a GH squad with no upgrades, they even out. The Chapter Tactics and Combat Squads are rules which even out with Acute Senses and Counterattack. Your meta or any other meta doesn't matter. This is on paper and points tallies for everyone. They have the same gear, same everything, same cost. Only difference is that the SM squad has a character. If we upgrade him to a Vet Sergeant with Chainsword and upgrade a GH to WGPL, they are identical.

Now give GH CCW each. They now have an additional attack. You must make them more expensive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Triszin wrote:
My issue is the way GW went about correcting the issues.

Instead of keeping the unique options and addressing the issues and making them balanced, whether it be rule alterations or point adjustments they did a blanket delete.

I frankly don't really see the reason why the new wolves simply cant be rolled into the main spacemarine codex, as they stand, with a small supplement to fill the gap. Thats what they are doing with everything else now.

More money. Sure, they could roll both BA and SW in at this point but its honestly more profitable to have seperate books.


Example A (BA and SW rolled in)
Say a person collects SM. Buys codex. £35. Plus model expenses.
He decides he wants to play SW as well. Proxies his Tacticals and Assaults and whatnot (paint makes no difference to models as long as Wargear is correct), picks up a few SW units like TWC and Logan.
Then wants BA too. Gets Death Company and lets it at that. No added cost for getting new Codex.

Example B (seperate books)
Person collects Marines. Buys codex. £35.
Then wanta SW too. Proxies his models because wargear same and paint no difference etc. Buys Codex and a few TWC and Logan. £30 plus models.
Then wants BA, so gets Codex and Death Company. £20 - £30 depending on whether its a 7th Ed BA Codex or the 5th Ed one. Plus DC cost.

In both cases he must buy models so the model cost remains the same. However in Example B GW have grossed an additional £50-60 before expenses and tax.

Are you really trying to compare units in a codex by fluff? Yeah the boots on the ground thing that really isnt a thing anymore since they can deepstrike now and wolfguard can take jump packs? No that ship has sailed, there is no more fluff of SW fighting with their feet on the ground as Russ intended. It was all fictional anyways for the codexes- I have never read any of that in the Horus Heresy novels. Storm Ravens actually hold more than either Wolf ship as they carry a dread as well so your logic is faulty there too.

My point is this- you take one army that has little shooting vs another army that has lots, the army that has little shooting should have an advantage over the shooting army with their core troops, you want them to be equal and keep their shooting advantage? I don't understand your thinking.