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Holy crap, iron priests are IC now.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
TWC possibly being only 40 pts each practically makes them auto-take so long as nothing else was changed about them.

Yeah I might have to buy another box if that's true...

Liking the sounds of the book overall, but annoyed by all the unjustified wargear and special rule cuts. :/

And their SS are only 15 pts. So 55 for a TWC with a 3 plus plus

If you want the marines to be identical except chapter traits, then why have separate codices? Grey Hunters aren't called tactical marines for a reason. Their fluff was always that they are better and reflected as such for a long time.

If you're saying that combat squads plus White Scars, Salamanders, Ultramarines, or Iron Hands chapter tactics are equivalents to Counter Attack (situational, not in my control) and Acute senses (nearly worthless), then you aren't even looking at it from game design at all. Hint, they aren't equal and the GH special rules are bad in comparison.

Copy and paste is the laziest form of game balance. Since GW obviously cannot manage their game, they'd rather make everything shallow and bland instead of investing the proper game management to make each faction feel unique while offering strengths and weaknesses versus sameness.


And again, Grey Hunters weren't game breaking. They were good, as they should be. Now they are grey marines



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 pretre wrote:
And their SS are only 15 pts. So 55 for a TWC with a 3 plus plus

Are they still W1?


Just notices Arjac got the must accept and issue challenges too. So instead of making it a fun thing to do, it feels like GW saying "please use these rules, come on... No? Well we'll make you!"

sturguard wrote:
Are you really trying to compare units in a codex by fluff? Yeah the boots on the ground thing that really isnt a thing anymore since they can deepstrike now and wolfguard can take jump packs? No that ship has sailed, there is no more fluff of SW fighting with their feet on the ground as Russ intended. It was all fictional anyways for the codexes- I have never read any of that in the Horus Heresy novels. Storm Ravens actually hold more than either Wolf ship as they carry a dread as well so your logic is faulty there too.

My point is this- you take one army that has little shooting vs another army that has lots, the army that has little shooting should have an advantage over the shooting army with their core troops, you want them to be equal and keep their shooting advantage? I don't understand your thinking.

Because SW troops are better at CC. Doesn't matter if shooting is better in competitive meta, your meta, my meta, or anyone's. Because they are not written for metas. They are simply written and left for the players to decide what's strong or not.
Stormraven Dreadnoughts is seperate from the transport capacity. Stormwolf carries more than a Stormraven with similar number of weapons. Stormfang Gunship carries less but with more and better guns. The pay off for the Stormraven is that it can carry a Dreadnought and is slightly cheaper. Also, you sais Stormtalon, not Raven, so my logic isn't faulty. Yours is because you think the studip care for your meta or competitiveness. No, they write a unit to reflect the fluff and sometimes ends up competitive or not.
As for the Wolf Guard thingy and DS and JP, chalk it up to the fact they are Veterans and must do whatever it takes to get the job done, and if that means flying then so be it. Wolf Scouts on the other hand are loners who do things their way and their way only, unless it is critical to do it the Wolf Lord/Grimnar's way.

 TheKbob wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pretre wrote:
And their SS are only 15 pts. So 55 for a TWC with a 3 plus plus

Are they still 1W?

They are still 2W

take heart. No matter what they do to you, they can't mess you up as badly as they did the orks. Poor orkses.

They really upsold me on TWC. WOW, Dem points decreases. I love it. 55pts for a TWC model with SS?

Now that's something to be happy about!

(See, not all negative)

 Deadshot wrote:

The Chapter Tactics and Combat Squads are rules which even out with Acute Senses and Counterattack.

This is seriously the most laughable garbage I have ever seen. We are all dumber for reading this.

Acute Senses does nothing for everything but Wolf Scouts, unless we use our craptastical formation that gives units a CHANCE of getting Outflank, and a crappy chance at that. Saying it is on the level of Combat Squads is laughable, and comparing it to the multi-part Chapter Tactics is beyond abject stupidity. Throwing Counter Attack together with Acute Senses still doesn't begin to approach Chapter Tactics even if Acute Senses was worth a crap (which it isn't).

Seriously. The only way in which they are comparable is in rule count, and only then if we ignore the fact that Chapter Tactics is multi-part. How you can even begin to suggest these "even out" is beyond me.

 streamdragon wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

The Chapter Tactics and Combat Squads are rules which even out with Acute Senses and Counterattack.

This is seriously the most laughable garbage I have ever seen. We are all dumber for reading this.

Acute Senses does nothing for everything but Wolf Scouts, unless we use our craptastical formation that gives units a CHANCE of getting Outflank, and a crappy chance at that. Saying it is on the level of Combat Squads is laughable, and comparing it to the multi-part Chapter Tactics is beyond abject stupidity. Throwing Counter Attack together with Acute Senses still doesn't begin to approach Chapter Tactics even if Acute Senses was worth a crap (which it isn't).

Seriously. The only way in which they are comparable is in rule count, and only then if we ignore the fact that Chapter Tactics is multi-part. How you can even begin to suggest these "even out" is beyond me.

The rules are not equally competitive but they have a use in their own right. Just because they arn't used MUCH doesn't make them useLESS. No, clearly not on the level of usefulNESS of either Chapter Tactics or Combat Squads, but it still has a use, that simply isn't used much by the players of tournaments. Some other players in beer and pretzels meta may find it really good.
Chapter tactic's being multipart is canceled out by the limitations it imposes. No Lysander leading IH TH/SS Termies in a IWND Land Raider. At least when the book was made. Its not a restrictiom many see as an issue but the restriction is there regardlesz.

How does "Acute Senses" have a use in its own right, when everything but Wolf Scouts lacks the literal only application that Acute Senses has: Outflank? Answer? It doesn't! That's not the same as a Salamander player not getting to use the "reroll wounds on flamers" by not taking flamers; that is a conscious choice. We have literally no way to guarantee anything but Wolf Scouts can use that rule. It's a design holdover from the last codex is all. Only instead of letting Space Wolves keep the rule content (ignoring night fight, which is what Acute Senses originally did), they kept the name that gives them... bupkiss.

Again, this has nothing to do with meta. What I'm saying has literally 0 to do with meta, but rather rules interactions and codex design. It's a screw up, plain and simple.

Chapter Tactics has 0 limitations it "imposes". Bolter Drill and Siege Masters function for Imperial Fists 100% of the time on units that can take advantage of them. That is, all devastators and centurion devastators get the Tank Hunters from Siege Masters. All bolt weapons rerolls those '1's. For Space Wolves, there is no way to guarantee Acute Senses. None. Because the majority of the time, your units will NOT have the ability to use it.

Acute Senses is a non issue. It should not even be factored into the cost of any unit except Wolf Scouts.

My Salamanders can buy a Flamer if I want to use their Chapter Tactics. I get free Mastercraft on my Characters. I can't even guarantee that my characters will have Saga of the Hunter anymore, because sagas are just another name for Warlord Traits, which are randomly determined. There is literally nothing in the Space Wolf codex that balances Chapter Tactics. Nothing. Suggesting otherwise, well, I just don't even know.

 TheKbob wrote:
Their fluff was always that they are better and reflected as such for a long time.

I remember, even in 2e Wolves got extra WS (BS for Long Fangs) over other marines. And it never made any sense. All marines train insanely hard, it doesn't make sense, that one chapter's troops are just plain better than everyone else's.
And of course, if you give the GH extra weapons, then they're better than Tacticals. And yes, then they cost more, but that's how point systems are supposed to work: better things cost more points.

 TheKbob wrote:
If you want the marines to be identical except chapter traits, then why have separate codices? "

Speaking as a Space Wolves player, there shouldn't be a separate codex.

Grey Hunters should be a Tactical Squad with a Chapter Trait applied that allows them to take close combat weapons on top of their bolter and pistol in exchange for the option to take a heavy weapon, and another that gives them Counter Attack. Done.

 insaniak wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
If you want the marines to be identical except chapter traits, then why have separate codices? "

Speaking as a Space Wolves player, there shouldn't be a separate codex.

Grey Hunters should be a Tactical Squad with a Chapter Trait applied that allows them to take close combat weapons on top of their bolter and pistol in exchange for the option to take a heavy weapon, and another that gives them Counter Attack. Done.

Agreed - have an exalt.

With all the streamlining GW has done, I'm still surprised at how many loyalist SM chapters get their own book.

 streamdragon wrote:
How does "Acute Senses" have a use in its own right, when everything but Wolf Scouts lacks the literal only application that Acute Senses has: Outflank? Answer? It doesn't! That's not the same as a Salamander player not getting to use the "reroll wounds on flamers" by not taking flamers; that is a conscious choice. We have literally no way to guarantee anything but Wolf Scouts can use that rule. It's a design holdover from the last codex is all. Only instead of letting Space Wolves keep the rule content (ignoring night fight, which is what Acute Senses originally did), they kept the name that gives them... bupkiss.

Again, this has nothing to do with meta. What I'm saying has literally 0 to do with meta, but rather rules interactions and codex design. It's a screw up, plain and simple.

Chapter Tactics has 0 limitations it "imposes". Bolter Drill and Siege Masters function for Imperial Fists 100% of the time on units that can take advantage of them. That is, all devastators and centurion devastators get the Tank Hunters from Siege Masters. All bolt weapons rerolls those '1's. For Space Wolves, there is no way to guarantee Acute Senses. None. Because the majority of the time, your units will NOT have the ability to use it.

Acute Senses is a non issue. It should not even be factored into the cost of any unit except Wolf Scouts.

My Salamanders can buy a Flamer if I want to use their Chapter Tactics. I get free Mastercraft on my Characters. I can't even guarantee that my characters will have Saga of the Hunter anymore, because sagas are just another name for Warlord Traits, which are randomly determined. There is literally nothing in the Space Wolf codex that balances Chapter Tactics. Nothing. Suggesting otherwise, well, I just don't even know.

Except that there is a way for ANY unit to have it. Its not guarenteed due to all this randomness but the use is there. You can use the Formation, which GW are pushing for, or get Saga of the Hunter for stuff like TWC. There is a way to do it just not guarenteed.
Chapter tactics prevents the mixture of different chapters' and characters. This also has an effect on army selection. Your salamanders will focus on Flamers meaning they lack long range. Your White Scars will be Biker heavy, not a lot of Terminators or Centurions. Your IF will be heavy on Devs and DevCents. Your IH will be vehicle heavy. These can be issues for some people.

All SW can have the potential for outflank. They pay for that privilege. SM pay for the potential to specialise in one Tactic in lieu of another.

Answer me this, what would you price GH as? 13pts? 12? 14 with CCW base?

Just as some SM tactics are worse than others DUE ENTIRELY TO META such as Raven Guard and Black Templars which favour assault units, SW have a "Chapter Tactic" which gives them Counter Attack and Acute Senses.

 Crimson wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
Their fluff was always that they are better and reflected as such for a long time.

I remember, even in 2e Wolves got extra WS (BS for Long Fangs) over other marines. And it never made any sense. All marines train insanely hard, it doesn't make sense, that one chapter's troops are just plain better than everyone else's.
And of course, if you give the GH extra weapons, then they're better than Tacticals. And yes, then they cost more, but that's how point systems are supposed to work: better things cost more points.

No, if they were in the same codex, that'd be true. There's game balance and codex balance. You use points to create codex balance and rules for game balance. Where the army makes profits on Grey Hunters, they'd have losses elsewhere. Add this to further restrictions, such as a force org, and you get game balance.

If what you are saying was applied, Wolves would need to be cheaper because of the discussion of their special rules that are lacking in comparison to vanilla marines .

Finally, Wolves are legion. Born on a death planet of viking nomads. They are the emperor's executioners tasked to kill forces that fall out line. They do not follow the codex astartes and are , per the fluff, the best bad asses around. Grey Hunters are called that for a reason... They are seasoned veterans themselves hunting anyone or thing not approved by the light of the Emperor. Russ might have hated the rules, but was loyal to the bitter end.

To have GHs reduced to crappy Grey marines is an insult to the fluff and the army. Its bad.

And whoever said Wolf Lords are like SM captians, unless a retcon happened, they are Chapter Masters. Remember, they are legion strength because Russ gave the middle finger to Guilliman after their only founding went ballistic.

 Uriels_Flame wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
If you want the marines to be identical except chapter traits, then why have separate codices? "

Speaking as a Space Wolves player, there shouldn't be a separate codex.

Grey Hunters should be a Tactical Squad with a Chapter Trait applied that allows them to take close combat weapons on top of their bolter and pistol in exchange for the option to take a heavy weapon, and another that gives them Counter Attack. Done.

Agreed - have an exalt.

With all the streamlining GW has done, I'm still surprised at how many loyalist SM chapters get their own book.

There already is. Its a FW Chapter Tactic for the Carcharadons. Alongside armywide Rage, it give Tactical Squads the option to swap Bolters for Chainswords for free or take them in addition for 1ppm. Before anyone goes on about how this relates to GH and all, its a FW book so its a different design team.

Also, I made a post in the GK rumour thread detailing why its like that. As you'd expect, profit.

 TheKbob wrote:

No, if they were in the same codex, that'd be true. There's game balance and codex balance. You use points to create codex balance and rules for game balance. Where the army makes profits on Grey Hunters, they'd have losses elsewhere. Add this to further restrictions, such as a force org, and you get game balance.

No, I absolutely disagree; especially in this era of allies and unbound lists you must balance units against units and not only the army as a whole. Now, whether Space Wolves as a whole are competitive remains to be seen. However, if they aren't, then it is not because of the Grey Hunters (they're appropriately costed) it is because their other units are lacking (I suspect this will not be the case and the Wolves will do just fine.)

Finally, Wolves are legion. Born on a death planet of viking nomads. They are the emperor's executioners tasked to kill forces that fall out line. They do not follow the codex astartes and are , per the fluff, the best bad asses around. Grey Hunters are called that for a reason... They are seasoned veterans themselves hunting anyone or thing not approved by the light of the Emperor. Russ might have hated the rules, but was loyal to the bitter end.

To have GHs reduced to crappy Grey marines is an insult to the fluff and the army. Its bad.

And whoever said Wolf Lords are like SM captians, unless a retcon happened, they are Chapter Masters. Remember, they are legion strength because Russ gave the middle finger to Guilliman after their only founding went ballistic.

Oh please! Every Chapter's fluff says that they're the most badass little snowflakes bar none. You cannot use that to justify that the army should be better than the others. If we would do that (and believed Ward) we should give Ultramarines +1 to every stat.

Can we either take this to another thread or come back to the topic?

Indeed. Let's move the game balance discussion to elsewhere and leave this thread for discussing the upcoming releases, please.

GH having higher Ws in 2nd always made sense to me because of 2 things...

1. The whole curse of the wulfen thing making them more animalistic and prone to fighting up close. A new recruit SM starts as a scout and works his way to tactical. A new SW recruit gets turned into a raging idiot who has to bring it under control to become a GH. So there's a natural propensity to fight up close built in to their geneseed.

2. The chapter as a whole places more emphasis on close combat prowess, so SW would spend more time training in such disciplines, more time fighting and wrestling among themselves and so on.

The balance to this would be raise their Ws and lower their Bs, but to lower their Bs would bring them down to regular human level, they obviously can shoot better than a regular human. It's a conundrum created because aside from great heroes, the entirety of human capacity has to be summed up by either 2 (trained but not well trained), 3 (well trained), 4 (extremely well trained) and 5 (freakishly skilled).

If 40k didn't use a D6 based system, it would allow SW to be better in combat and worse at shooting without making them as crap as regular humans. Instead, the way to try and balance it is to not give SW as good shooting options in the weapons department to show they don't have as much propensity for shooting. Of course the problem with that is that special weapons are typically more useful than heavy weapons on Tactical marines. Was it 3rd edition that only let them take 1 special weapon but 2 power weapons, or did I dream that? Either way, that seems like the better solution.

Also, with the current rules, is there really any benefit to combat squads? You can just take units of 5 and when you run out of Troop slots, start a fresh FOC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:
Indeed. Let's move the game balance discussion to elsewhere and leave this thread for discussing the upcoming releases, please.

Doh, sorry, I wrote my response while you were posting this. I'll stop, I promise, lol.

Wolf lords are company captains. And the space wolves are not legion. They are bigger than a regular chapter but definitely not legion.

So Gray Hunters are now just gray tacticals? One of the most worthless Troop units in the game?

I guess it's easier to gut one unit than it is to make every other PA entry that isn't GK actually worth a damn.

 His Master's Voice wrote:
So Gray Hunters are now just gray tacticals? One of the most worthless Troop units in the game?

I guess it's easier to gut one unit than it is to make every other PA entry that isn't GK actually worth a damn.

Why do people keep saying this? They perform completely different roles on the battle Field.

In an attempt to get back on topic:
Any word on the Wolf Guard Battle Leader?

I haven't been able to follow this much today, so I might have missed it.

Can WGTDA still take drop pods? That's one of the biggest concerns I have left. Screw crappy teleporting!

 Bulldogging wrote:
I haven't been able to follow this much today, so I might have missed it.

Can WGTDA still take drop pods? That's one of the biggest concerns I have left. Screw crappy teleporting!

Nope, no more drop pods, they teleport now.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Bulldogging wrote:
I haven't been able to follow this much today, so I might have missed it.

Can WGTDA still take drop pods? That's one of the biggest concerns I have left. Screw crappy teleporting!

Nope, no more drop pods, they teleport now.

Ah that sucks, that hurts drop pod armies some. Thanks.

I don't really see the point in some of the changes, but whatever I guess.

Pods can take locator beacons at least (at least according to the digital preview of the Bjorn entry).

Anyone know the price of a power armor rune priest ?

Holy crap, iron priests are IC now.

Because no one took them before?

Anyone know the price of a power armor rune priest ?

I believe it was said 60pts. But maybe that was the Wolf Priest.