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 Sinji wrote:

 jhnbrg wrote:

 Sinji wrote:
The you can get around the Overwatch issue by assaulting all.kf your units at the same time. If you assault 1 here and 1 there you will lose tons of boyz piece meal style. If you hit them with everything all at once then they will need to spread out the overwatch to focus on one thing at a time.

This is actually quite easy you just need to get over you compelling need to shoot turn 1. Just run or turbo-boot everything as fast as possible turn 1 right at there heart. You will lose some guys but don't worry turn 2 us your meal ticket to victory and you will have tons of redundancy in numbers to get the job done. Try not to over think things. You will not win against Tau in a shoot out and they will not win against you in combat.

If you do this against tau, there will be next to no orks left in turn2...

Also, i dont understand the idea that BW are hard for tau to kill, they are AV 12 on the sides and tau have no problems exploding AV 12 open topped.

How would there be next to no Orks left in turn 2?

I believe they are assuming the Tau get the best shots possible, that in theory, they would be able to mow down everything we had by turn 2, which is silly to say. With the amount of bodies we have on the field, if they are mowing us down by turn 2...well...someone is doing something very, very wrong.

They would first have to pop 5 Battle Wagons. Then the 100 boyz inside. Then the the 350pts of stuff if playing at 1850pts. Logic tells me its not going to happen even if the Tau go first.

 Sinji wrote:
They would first have to pop 5 Battle Wagons. Then the 100 boyz inside. Then the the 350pts of stuff if playing at 1850pts. Logic tells me its not going to happen even if the Tau go first.

Each BW will have about 350pts of tau shooting at the sides of AV12 or rapid fire pulse rifles into T4.
Tau will get a LOT of firepower for 350pts. 2 riptides is 360pts (and a bad example) A full Broadside team and 12 Fire warriors are about 300 pts, enough points to get some pathfinders too.

I have tried to rush Tau with Bws, trucks, bikes, deffkoptas and everything else, its not as easy as you try to make it sound.

 jhnbrg wrote:

 Sinji wrote:
They would first have to pop 5 Battle Wagons. Then the 100 boyz inside. Then the the 350pts of stuff if playing at 1850pts. Logic tells me its not going to happen even if the Tau go first.

Each BW will have about 350pts of tau shooting at the sides of AV12 or rapid fire pulse rifles into T4.
Tau will get a LOT of firepower for 350pts. 2 riptides is 360pts (and a bad example) A full Broadside team and 12 Fire warriors are about 300 pts, enough points to get some pathfinders too.

I have tried to rush Tau with Bws, trucks, bikes, deffkoptas and everything else, its not as easy as you try to make it sound.

What makes you so sure the Battle Wagons will be getting hit on Side Armour? Keep all you Wagons on one table edge in a straight line either ledt or right. That way the Wagon on the edge of the table will have is side protected. Then place all the other Wagons side to in a line next to the first Battle Wagon. There should be only one Battle Wagon on the far end exposed on side Armour. This Battle Wagon can Have LOS blocked by a Trukk or something expendable. This will usually be the BW that I will focus on keeping the KKF within range of.

In the old Dex I use to run a Trukk behind the line of Wagons with a KFF inside to give off the bubble of defence. Since this no longer works I have killed my Wazdakka model and rebuilt him as Big Mek with KFF on a bike. He is actually easier to hide behind the Wagon Wall. His job is only to keep the Wagons alive for 1-2 rounds of shooting then he is on vehicle hunting duty. He is also a little bit more flexible because he can roll in behind any of the damaged Wagons and attempt to repair.

Biggest threat to this style of play is Drop Pods or any turn 1 deep striking units that can get behind the wall to hit AV 10 rear armour. These units will usually die from all the contents in assault the next turn though.

 Sinji wrote:

 jhnbrg wrote:

 Sinji wrote:
They would first have to pop 5 Battle Wagons. Then the 100 boyz inside. Then the the 350pts of stuff if playing at 1850pts. Logic tells me its not going to happen even if the Tau go first.

Each BW will have about 350pts of tau shooting at the sides of AV12 or rapid fire pulse rifles into T4.
Tau will get a LOT of firepower for 350pts. 2 riptides is 360pts (and a bad example) A full Broadside team and 12 Fire warriors are about 300 pts, enough points to get some pathfinders too.

I have tried to rush Tau with Bws, trucks, bikes, deffkoptas and everything else, its not as easy as you try to make it sound.

What makes you so sure the Battle Wagons will be getting hit on Side Armour? Keep all you Wagons on one table edge in a straight line either ledt or right. That way the Wagon on the edge of the table will have is side protected. Then place all the other Wagons side to in a line next to the first Battle Wagon. There should be only one Battle Wagon on the far end exposed on side Armour. This Battle Wagon can Have LOS blocked by a Trukk or something expendable. This will usually be the BW that I will focus on keeping the KKF within range of.

In the old Dex I use to run a Trukk behind the line of Wagons with a KFF inside to give off the bubble of defence. Since this no longer works I have killed my Wazdakka model and rebuilt him as Big Mek with KFF on a bike. He is actually easier to hide behind the Wagon Wall. His job is only to keep the Wagons alive for 1-2 rounds of shooting then he is on vehicle hunting duty. He is also a little bit more flexible because he can roll in behind any of the damaged Wagons and attempt to repair.

Biggest threat to this style of play is Drop Pods or any turn 1 deep striking units that can get behind the wall to hit AV 10 rear armour. These units will usually die from all the contents in assault the next turn though.

The tactic is interesting but if i put my entire army on the extreme flank i will give my opponent 1 maybe even 2 more turns of firing, besides what about the objectives?

Dont get me wrong, I really want my orks to be playable against tau but so far i havent found anything that will work.

 jhnbrg wrote:

 Sinji wrote:

 jhnbrg wrote:

 Sinji wrote:
They would first have to pop 5 Battle Wagons. Then the 100 boyz inside. Then the the 350pts of stuff if playing at 1850pts. Logic tells me its not going to happen even if the Tau go first.

Each BW will have about 350pts of tau shooting at the sides of AV12 or rapid fire pulse rifles into T4.
Tau will get a LOT of firepower for 350pts. 2 riptides is 360pts (and a bad example) A full Broadside team and 12 Fire warriors are about 300 pts, enough points to get some pathfinders too.

I have tried to rush Tau with Bws, trucks, bikes, deffkoptas and everything else, its not as easy as you try to make it sound.

What makes you so sure the Battle Wagons will be getting hit on Side Armour? Keep all you Wagons on one table edge in a straight line either ledt or right. That way the Wagon on the edge of the table will have is side protected. Then place all the other Wagons side to in a line next to the first Battle Wagon. There should be only one Battle Wagon on the far end exposed on side Armour. This Battle Wagon can Have LOS blocked by a Trukk or something expendable. This will usually be the BW that I will focus on keeping the KKF within range of.

In the old Dex I use to run a Trukk behind the line of Wagons with a KFF inside to give off the bubble of defence. Since this no longer works I have killed my Wazdakka model and rebuilt him as Big Mek with KFF on a bike. He is actually easier to hide behind the Wagon Wall. His job is only to keep the Wagons alive for 1-2 rounds of shooting then he is on vehicle hunting duty. He is also a little bit more flexible because he can roll in behind any of the damaged Wagons and attempt to repair.

Biggest threat to this style of play is Drop Pods or any turn 1 deep striking units that can get behind the wall to hit AV 10 rear armour. These units will usually die from all the contents in assault the next turn though.

The tactic is interesting but if i put my entire army on the extreme flank i will give my opponent 1 maybe even 2 more turns of firing, besides what about the objectives?

Dont get me wrong, I really want my orks to be playable against tau but so far i havent found anything that will work.

How will they get 1 or 2 more turns of shooting? If you run standard Wagons you get an 18" move if going flat out turn 1. That's enough to get you into position. If you run the Scouting Wagons formation you could acrually be in Ramming range turn 1 if they were silly enough to move towards you. If the Tau player is packing melta make sure you are 1" outside of melta range. Otherwise move as close as possible. Make sure you finish turn 1 in a position so that if by some chance wagon is wrecked you will still be in charge range for turn 2 with the guys from inside 12" is usually more than enough I would even sit back 13" just in case there is melta near by. The benefit of the new Wagon formation is that you can actually get away with moving 6" on your turn 1 a lot of the time so you can still shoot out of the top. Shoota boys work great in this roll.

The math hammer on 5 squads of 20 shoot boys shooting at Fire Warriors/ Path Finders is about 22 dead Fire Warriors/ Path Finders. My first target would be the Path Finders then and Crises Suits or Broadsides. The Rip Tides go down easy enough in combat when swarmed by boyz. They will need to take a Fear test though but the goal isn't to kill the Rip Tide just to stop it being able to shoot. If it dies then that's just a bonus.

Let me straight.
Deploy on extreme flank to avoid sideshots.
Turn 1: Move flat out.
Survive an entire tau armys worth of fire, much of it at short to medium range.

Turn 2: Still outside Tau deployment zone with what is left of your BWs and very likely with nothing to charge next turn since you are only threatening a very small part of the opposite deployment zone so you will have to endure another turn of shooting.

And if Tau get the first turn? You will have suits landing and lining for rearshots with all the orks trapped in the BWs.

Belive me, i have tried to rush tau and they rarely sit there waiting for your charge.

I have no experience with scouting wagons though.

edited for spelling

Bingo you have it. Easy as that.

Not enough orky.

That Aside I do advocate mega nobs. I am not scared of boyz. Not in the least, just charge before they do

But nobs? That's a lot of 2+ power claw goodness..

I have been doing the numbers and point for point the MANZ with 1 Killsaw are better over all then a squad of Tankbustas. The Tankbustas are very good at taking out Vehicles but the MANZ have a wide target selection and are a better multi-tool. They are also a bit tougher vs Explosions. There real weakness is in the new Mob rule. Even if you take a squad ten. When 1 dies and they need to test for mob rule one a 4, 5 & 6 they fail. I have been looking into the Bully Boyz formation that grants fearless to the squad. It looks interesting but I am yet to field them.

 Sinji wrote:
Bingo you have it. Easy as that.

Let me know how it goes when you try it....

New mob rule helps MANz, how can it hinder them?

Before they were LD7 since you literally never, ever took more than a small handful since it was way too expensive for an insane overkill of the same job.

Now, theyre LD7 and have a chance to ignore a failed test with insanely unlikely odds to take damage in the process. Protect the character, give him a BP, now if you roll 8+ you have a decent chance to get 2-3 result and take D6 S4 hits....which is on average half of the D6 result and with 2+ armor who gives a damn.

MANz were never fearless under old mob rule. I dont even think you could take them in units larger than 10 to begin with, and if you could 10 is the max you can fit in a BW anyway since they count as 2 for capacity reasons.

In 6 games of running 2 170pt MANz missiles (3 manz, 1 killsaw and bp, in a trukk with ram) i have only had them flee once and i have rolled on the mob chart multiple times. I just keep getting 2-3 or using my bosspole to reroll into 2-3.

:I Well, regardless of scouting wagons (as I only own 2 right now), I'll probably do a Trukk/Wagon rush and go from there. I was going to Green Tide again, and I still may. I just can't bank on getting Da Jump each game, which it needs to be amazingly awesome.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
New mob rule helps MANz, how can it hinder them?

Before they were LD7 since you literally never, ever took more than a small handful since it was way too expensive for an insane overkill of the same job.

Now, theyre LD7 and have a chance to ignore a failed test with insanely unlikely odds to take damage in the process. Protect the character, give him a BP, now if you roll 8+ you have a decent chance to get 2-3 result and take D6 S4 hits....which is on average half of the D6 result and with 2+ armor who gives a damn.

MANz were never fearless under old mob rule. I dont even think you could take them in units larger than 10 to begin with, and if you could 10 is the max you can fit in a BW anyway since they count as 2 for capacity reasons.

In 6 games of running 2 170pt MANz missiles (3 manz, 1 killsaw and bp, in a trukk with ram) i have only had them flee once and i have rolled on the mob chart multiple times. I just keep getting 2-3 or using my bosspole to reroll into 2-3.

On a roll of 4,5 or 6 on the Mob rule table they will count as failed. A boss pole will let you re-roll this but if you roll this again they are swept. If in the open a 1 is also a bad thing. The only good one is a 2 or 3 and that's only if the Boss Nob is still alive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jhnbrg wrote:

 Sinji wrote:
Bingo you have it. Easy as that.

Let me know how it goes when you try it....

This is how I have played my Orks since codex Armageddon came out. Probably had about 500+ games playing this way. Still works for me just like is has in the last 17 years of playing Orks.

On a roll of 4,5 or 6 on the Mob rule table they will count as failed. A boss pole will let you re-roll this but if you roll this again they are swept. If in the open a 1 is also a bad thing. The only good one is a 2 or 3 and that's only if the Boss Nob is still alive.

Yes, but again, its better than before. Before they had LD7 and that was it - now they have SOME chance to ignore that bad leadership they just failed. Thats my point.

Sorry for derailing.

 Vineheart01 wrote:

On a roll of 4,5 or 6 on the Mob rule table they will count as failed. A boss pole will let you re-roll this but if you roll this again they are swept. If in the open a 1 is also a bad thing. The only good one is a 2 or 3 and that's only if the Boss Nob is still alive.

Yes, but again, its better than before. Before they had LD7 and that was it - now they have SOME chance to ignore that bad leadership they just failed. Thats my point.

Sorry for derailing.

Ok good point. 50/50 is better than 0. Also with the addition of a Boss Pole now that goes up to a 75% success rate. 25% of the time though they will suffer the wrath of being swept after combat. MANZ are awesome though. I have always love running them in my Ork Lists and now also with Killsaws they have become the perfect little multi-tool unit.