Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I just started 40k. I thought I had made up my mind about starting Necrons, but a troubling thought occurred to me. By the time I finish building and painting my army, a new codex will most likely have come out. Will this make my collection useless? Should I just wait a few more months?

I doubt it.

Core units (like warriors and lords) won't get any changes, most likely, and anything that has a plastic kit released for it is extremely unlikely to be cut from a codex altogether.

Of course, the power levels of things might change, but "possibly less powerful" is not a synonym for "useless".

I wouldn't worry about it.

Just be wary of special characters and the VERY RARE loss of a unit.

My army lost 2 special characters and 3 units because penal legion was dropped. with the guard update. 1 was made useless but that doesn't count.

Usually losses like that are easily assimilated back into the army one way or another though. So in my opinion go for it.

Yeah, a good rule of thumb these days: if there is a model for it already, you are less likely to lose it in Codex updates.

This applies to troops, not HQs.

 Ailaros wrote:
I doubt it.

Core units (like warriors and lords) won't get any changes, most likely, and anything that has a plastic kit released for it is extremely unlikely to be cut from a codex altogether.

Of course, the power levels of things might change, but "possibly less powerful" is not a synonym for "useless".

I wouldn't worry about it.

Well if you're abusing Necron power units like Annihilation Barges and Mindshackle Scarabs, you might be forced to fall back on something else. The basics should remain useful though I imagine.

Yeah, wargear is the only thing I'd seriously worry about. MSS might not make it into the next codex, or if it does, it might take a huge price hike.

Generally that only affects a few models, though, which are easy to replace, or to just proxy.

It's also possible some units might get more expensive, pointswise, or have their special rules messed with, but they're not going to get cut altogether, you just might have to play them a little differently.

If you're a casual player, you don't have to worry about anything. Just don't spam stuff.

When you have op wraith spam + flyer spam and nothing else, i bet you're gona be disappointed when the new dex/ruleset hits and you got to recreate >50% of your army.

But when you have some warriorz, some immortals, a squad of wraiths, 1-2 flyers...all in all a mixed bag of stuff - when things will change you're gona remain on the same decent level cause something's got better, something's got worse and it all evens out.

Exactly. The codex cycle tends to only hurt powergamers.

Which is ironic, actually. A powergamer will flock to the strongest build of the strongest army, selling off all their other stuff to pursue what's best. When the rules change, what it does is cause them to sell all of their stuff to pursue the strongest build of the strongest army.

It's just enabling a behavior pattern they wanted anyways. It's why true powergamers don't want 40k to be balanced. Otherwise they couldn't be continually seeking out the best if everything were relatively the same (and they'd get bored and quit if it never changed).

Anyways, if you don't have this mentality then, necessarily, you're willing to play with stuff even if it doesn't give you the easiest chance of winning. Once you've made it to that point, though, the scale of your decisions is irrelevant to the scope.

I mean, if you're already willing to play with non-optimized armies, then what does it really matter if a new codex comes by and makes it a little more non-optimized? You're still playing with a harder-than-possible list either way.

Which means you really shouldn't worry about it at all, because you're already more or less just playing the army you want to play with the units you want to play with, and it's unlikely a codex change will alter your fundamental approach to the game very much.

Or, of course, if you are worried about it, and rightly so, then you're a powergamer, which means you should dump necron altogether for a stronger army.

The codex cycle hurts everyone. The releases, along with edition changes, can and have routinely made or broken units. Things like Thunderfire Cannons and Wave Serpents have gone from mediocre to amazing. Falcons are nothing of what they once were. Long Fangs used to be feared, and even with FAQs, the Heldrake went from solid, to "that broken fething thing," back to solid.

Many other games do it right by locking in units by getting it right the first time and applying very few FAQs afterwards. If something is truly game breaking, that's when it gets shut down. If it's under powered, new units are released to buff them without changing things drastically.

You can and should expect hard swings at the time of a new codex and at edition changes.

Edit: "When you buy a lot of spread out purchases, pretty much something of everything in the codex, you can weather units getting bad or good because, on average, you'll just be hovering at mediocre." That's what the other folks are saying. There are such hard shifts that lists will go from suck to rock with a book change. A great gentleman with an awesome Space Marine Biker army went from getting his butt beat to "Grav Biker White Scars Hell" list thanks to the 6E book with almost zero changes to his army. So it goes both ways. Realize that you play 40k and what's good now has the potential of being completely different in the future.

TheKbob wrote:The codex cycle hurts everyone.

The codex cycle only hurts people who:

A.) care about having a very strong army.

and

B.) don't want to do what it takes to keep having a very strong army over time.

Which means it only hurts people who are both WAAC and lazy simultaneously.

People who don't care that they have the most optimized armies won't care about things changing. People who play armies, not fad lists don't care because they probably already have the models to switch to different things anyways. People who are "serious" about winning will buy new models to keep their competitive edge (and will be glad that things have changed so they have a chance to get ahead of the curve).

It's only wannabes that are hurt by the codex cycle. People who want to win, but aren't willing to do what it takes. It's much easier to complain about how unfair everything is, and how it's not their fault that they're failing to achieve their goals than to get their priorities straight. Not unlike most things in life.

 Ailaros wrote:

The codex cycle only hurts people who:

A.) care about having a very strong army.

and

B.) don't want to do what it takes to keep having a very strong army over time.

Which means it only hurts people who are both WAAC and lazy simultaneously.

People who don't care that they have the most optimized armies won't care about things changing. People who play armies, not fad lists don't care because they probably already have the models to switch to different things anyways. People who are "serious" about winning will buy new models to keep their competitive edge (and will be glad that things have changed so they have a chance to get ahead of the curve).

It's only wannabes that are hurt by the codex cycle. People who want to win, but aren't willing to do what it takes. It's much easier to complain about how unfair everything is, and how it's not their fault that they're failing to achieve their goals than to get their priorities straight. Not unlike most things in life.

Unless, you know, you have a themed based army, such as my example of someone playing White Scars for many game editions, who has to deal with the wax and wane of rules. Or do you call that individual playing the army based on the fluff they love as "lazy" or "WAAC"? No, you'd rather be an apologist while being highly reductive in logic with a dash of insulting to boot.

Edit: Let's add people who played assault armies in 5E to that list. Let's add people with Genestealer based armies. Oh, how about books that flat out got deleted like Lost and the Damned? I could play this game all night, it's fun. The "who go screwed by GW rules" roulette wheel!

Edit2: Spore pod Tyranids! Orks players who liked Wazdakka Kult of Speed lists! Guys who like guys like Marbo! (Or Chenkov... or Al'Raheem...). Round and round we go!

The poor rules hurts everyone. Try a different game that actually gives bonuses for playing a fluffy list and you might be amazed at how bad GW gets this concept.

The book was never deleted, it was just not updated to the new rules set. You can still play with it, if you wish, noone is forcing you to stop playing it.

Biggest change to the cycle is now "if it doesnt already have a model, and isnt getting one in the release, youre probably out of luck", but then thats more to do with CH fallout than anything - given they can now easily add to a codex, you dont have to leave bspace for second wave models anymore, you can just add them in later. Which is a totally rational, business-led decision, just not massively hobby friendly. But then if they did everything as "hobby" as some would like - halving their prices, for example - theyd go out of business rather quickly, so having some business acumen isnt a bad thing....

So, instead of you going on YET ANOTHER "stop playing 40k" rant, when this is SO FAR OFF TOPIC you wouldnt believe, how about you dial it back a little? Not everyone gives a gak that you dont want them to play 40k, and not every thread you post in has to veer that way

To the OP - ignore Kbob.

If you have a fairly rounded army, then youre probably fine. Be wary if you have special characters without a model, as there is a good chance they wont make it into the next book, at least not at launch. Sadly a fallout of the CH lawsuit that one - safer for them to only release codexes with only entries for models already available, or launched on release, than it is to leave space to ad at a later date.

Generally heavily weighted armies, that rely on taking one unit over and over (so max annihilation barges, wraith, etc) tend to suffer most with codex swap. Core units, like warirors and immortals, will likely get massaged a little - altering points, maybe S, T etc - but are unlikely to become useless, just more or less efficient, depending.

SO!

Too summarize the whole conversation: If your concerned about the new codex drop, Start slow and pick up the basic units without net listing for an OMG OP army list. ((I also recommend not buying more then you can paint in a reasonable amount of time, and don't buy more until what you have is done. ))

GW makes some business Decisions that players don't agree with.

My 105 Genestealers have been sitting on the shelf since soon after 6th edition hit. Not the new Nid codex - the 6th edition rulebook.

So while it's unlikely to make your entire collection worthless, the potential exists for it to make a large part of it not as good.

Define "useless". Power levels of individual units can and will certainly vary. A model that was useful in the previous codex might suddenly be useless. Or vice versa.

If you're only playing an army for its power level, however, you better not keep playing 40k. The rules are trash. Only play 40k if you like its theme / setting or a special army.

Just don't ask IG players about how many units and characters they've lost to the last couple of codex updates....

Necrons had major tweaks to their regeneration rules last time (Iv heard it argued as better and worse at different times)

Phase out May return in some form, with something cool in return

The general rule of thumb is if it's in plastic, it's safe to buy. Considering damn near everything is plastic now, I'd say you're good to get pretty much whatever. GW doesn't remove units from codices unless they don't have a model or it's some old metal or hybrid kit, like the Pariahs from Necrons and the IG Griffon. Codices coming out this edition haven't been huge drastic changes overall, so I think you'll be alright to get whatever suits your fancy.

By not telling a new player that GW has frequently forgotten about, mistreated, or deleted whole swaths of units and rule sets would be a disservice.

And units do frequently go from crap to to amazing and back again like no other game. Let's not forget some units forever locked in that zone of poo like Pyrovores and Mandrakes.

So yes, ignore the guy giving you facts and history of the game. "Just have fun." That is until one of your favorite units gets deleted. 'Cause that's fun.

Edit, for clarity, my post above was at Ailaros, not the OP. So get off the "hate train."

One sided, crucially omitting some important details to ramp up the histrionics....yes, they're "facts".

You added very little to the discussion except fud, as opposed to bringing any balanced view.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
One sided, crucially omitting some important details to ramp up the histrionics....yes, they're "facts".

You added very little to the discussion except fud, as opposed to bringing any balanced view.

What's the balanced side? Some books get new units you can buy and weaker units can get stronger?

What's the "other side" to facts? You can build an army and in an edition or codex change, it can go all over the place changing balance. Your army could become really amazing (Sam Hainn Eldar!) or to complete garbage (Genestealer invasion force), by a simple rules update. And it's not about how you play, either. This argument can be entirely based around playing a fluffy themed army that can have hard swings of power. The Draigowing is an entirely fluffy list and was ball busting in 5E and went to just strong in 6E. I have no input on where it stands in 7E.

Tau went from a "never seen on the table" army to "OMFG EVERYWHERE!" with one codex change. Were some power gamers? Sure. But maybe some where guys tired of their Tau tanking or knew how bad Tau were and didn't want to invest. People like buying units they feel are good. People like units performing as they expected in the fluff or rules on the table. It's a strong satisfaction that, in turn, sells more models and kits.

I have not led anyone astray. I simply put the facts of the matter out there. Games Workshop is terrible at managing their games.

Well here is a question. Forget about power levels. If you start and finish your army now, what are you going to do? Will you play? What if you wait a few months like you said, what are you going to do? Not play?

Do you want to play? If you wait, you could be waiting a few months like you said, or you could be waiting another year, maybe 2 years. You going to not be playing until the codex gets updated?

First of all, what kind of player are you? Do you play for fun, or do you play for "I must win with plastic toy soldiers"?

I know it sucks when your army gets nerfed and it's unplayable for you. It happens.

If you are so worried, just buy a few things, a HQ or two, and your Troops. Troops shouldn't be changing much. At least now you can start playing and not make any big purchases until the new codex comes out. Thing is, do you stop having fun until when or if it comes out?

Davor wrote:
Well here is a question. Forget about power levels. If you start and finish your army now, what are you going to do? Will you play? What if you wait a few months like you said, what are you going to do? Not play?

Do you want to play? If you wait, you could be waiting a few months like you said, or you could be waiting another year, maybe 2 years. You going to not be playing until the codex gets updated?

First of all, what kind of player are you? Do you play for fun, or do you play for "I must win with plastic toy soldiers"?

I know it sucks when your army gets nerfed and it's unplayable for you. It happens.

If you are so worried, just buy a few things, a HQ or two, and your Troops. Troops shouldn't be changing much. At least now you can start playing and not make any big purchases until the new codex comes out. Thing is, do you stop having fun until when or if it comes out?

I'm somewhat in between the fun/win spectrum. If I wanted to win all the time, I'd play Serpent Spam. I want to have a decently competitive game in which both my opponent and I have fun. Here's my list:
HQ: Overlord (Warscythe, Resurrection Orb, Sempiternal Weave, Phase Shifter) 190
Catacomb Command Barge 80

Troops: 10 Warriors 130
Ghost Ark 115
10 Warriors 130
Ghost Ark 115
10 Warriors 130
Ghost Ark 115

Elites: 5 Deathmarks 95

Fast Attack: 6 Wraiths (1 whip coil) 220

Heavy Support: Annihilation Barge 90
Annihilation Barge 90

Total: 1500

Necrons are one of the most solid codices out there with every unit, with the exception of Flayers, at least being useful in a fashion. It's an example that Mat Ward, while maybe not the best fluff writer, makes great codices as his books usually stand the test of time much better.

I'd not be worried for now as 7E seems to be a boon for them. Just know that they are inline for a hardcover book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 40k Wargamer wrote:

I'm somewhat in between the fun/win spectrum. If I wanted to win all the time, I'd play Serpent Spam. I want to have a decently competitive game in which both my opponent and I have fun. Here's my list:
HQ: Overlord (Warscythe, Resurrection Orb, Sempiternal Weave, Phase Shifter) 190
Catacomb Command Barge 80

Troops: 10 Warriors 130
Ghost Ark 115
10 Warriors 130
Ghost Ark 115
10 Warriors 130
Ghost Ark 115

Elites: 5 Deathmarks 95

Fast Attack: 6 Wraiths (1 whip coil) 220

Heavy Support: Annihilation Barge 90
Annihilation Barge 90

Total: 1500

That's a good list for 1500 from my experiences. Objective Secured Ghost Arks are hilarious in theory; amazing that is.

As for predicting the future, no idea. Some FAQ or rule could change, much like the Necron FAQ that got really screwy with 7E, and some units that were good could be made bad. You should be fine with that, I'd hope, but know it's entirely in the realm of possible that Necrons get a new codex and they are either "the worst" or "I never want to play against that army".

 40k Wargamer wrote:

Davor wrote:
Well here is a question. Forget about power levels. If you start and finish your army now, what are you going to do? Will you play? What if you wait a few months like you said, what are you going to do? Not play?

Do you want to play? If you wait, you could be waiting a few months like you said, or you could be waiting another year, maybe 2 years. You going to not be playing until the codex gets updated?

First of all, what kind of player are you? Do you play for fun, or do you play for "I must win with plastic toy soldiers"?

I know it sucks when your army gets nerfed and it's unplayable for you. It happens.

If you are so worried, just buy a few things, a HQ or two, and your Troops. Troops shouldn't be changing much. At least now you can start playing and not make any big purchases until the new codex comes out. Thing is, do you stop having fun until when or if it comes out?

I'm somewhat in between the fun/win spectrum. If I wanted to win all the time, I'd play Serpent Spam. I want to have a decently competitive game in which both my opponent and I have fun. Here's my list:
HQ: Overlord (Warscythe, Resurrection Orb, Sempiternal Weave, Phase Shifter) 190
Catacomb Command Barge 80

Troops: 10 Warriors 130
Ghost Ark 115
10 Warriors 130
Ghost Ark 115
10 Warriors 130
Ghost Ark 115

Elites: 5 Deathmarks 95

Fast Attack: 6 Wraiths (1 whip coil) 220

Heavy Support: Annihilation Barge 90
Annihilation Barge 90

Total: 1500

Sounds like a good list to me, But I'm not a Necron player. I say go for it, and enjoy the work your going to put into it.

Useless? No.

Potentially losing build options for themed armies or not letting you play the way you originally wanted to? Very possibly.

Lucky for Necrons, they don't have any variant lists for GW to axe, so you should be ok.

 Chumbalaya wrote:
Useless? No.

Potentially losing build options for themed armies or not letting you play the way you originally wanted to? Very possibly.

Lucky for Necrons, they don't have any variant lists for GW to axe, so you should be ok.

I dunno, an entire Tyranid army based around the concept of Spore Pods would be pretty useless right now. So I'd not stick in the realm of absolutes. GW has and, unless given new data, will change codices around that can make models and units useless. The entire army? Well that's a bit more debatable. But they have been on a penchant for deleting long established units lately that's No Bueno in my books.

Thekbob - that when you mention units getting removed, that it was units with no models available for them - you didn't mention that. Or that the books that got "deleted" were limited run expansions, not a all main line books with no expectation they would continue.

You're telling a limited version of the truth. Yes, we all get you don't like 40k; however this is a thread about someone who likes 40k and is seeming to want some balanced ideas.

Not every thread needs to be taken over with that hatred, it gets tiresome

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Thekbob - that when you mention units getting removed, that it was units with no models available for them - you didn't mention that. Or that the books that got "deleted" were limited run expansions, not a all main line books with no expectation they would continue.

You're telling a limited version of the truth. Yes, we all get you don't like 40k; however this is a thread about someone who likes 40k and is seeming to want some balanced ideas.

Not every thread needs to be taken over with that hatred, it gets tiresome

All the IG units had models. I know plenty of folks with all the missing models for Tyranids. Same for plenty of custom Wazdakkas I saw. So on, so forth. Just because GW had not yet made a model does not mean the company should invalidate many individuals ways of play or joyful fruits of their labors. The game and company, used to be very much so about unique creations. Now it's all Citadel™ this or Fine™ that.

It's not hatred. Facts are not hatred. Facts are facts, your perception of them is what you make of it. I love 40k, just not what it has turned into directly because of Games Workshop's actions. If I hated it, I wouldn't still have a large pile of stuff to build and paint right now from the game. No intent on playing the game because it's busted, but that doesn't mean I still don't care for it. You, like many others, take the just derision of the game and the company as flagrant and flippant hate. Which it is not. So why don't you, rather, stop posting "I feel" statements and stick with the facts of the matter.